The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[WPM]

I truly get a headache when reading the pretribbers' attempts at describing their incredibly convoluted doctrine. It makes my head spin. Is the truth really that complicated? You have people believing in 5 raptures, 3 comings of Christ and other nonsense that is not mentioned anywhere in scripture. How can anyone make any sense of all that? Doesn't God want us to know the truth about these things? Did He purposely make it all into a 10,000 piece puzzle that we need to put together?

It makes their heads spin as well. Read their posts. They cannot even articulate a basic argument. It is convoluted mumbo-jumbo. They are incapable of exegeting simple Scripture. I wonder why?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I truly get a headache when reading the pretribbers' attempts at describing their incredibly convoluted doctrine. It makes my head spin. Is the truth really that complicated? You have people believing in 5 raptures, 3 comings of Christ and other nonsense that is not mentioned anywhere in scripture. How can anyone make any sense of all that? Doesn't God want us to know the truth about these things? Did He purposely make it all into a 10,000 piece puzzle that we need to put together?

Bible= two gatherings in mat 24
= two gatherings in Rev 19.

No postrib ever brought that to the table.
You can watch hours of postribber teachers and if they do address it, it is defensive somehow trying to make it into some pretzel.

Postrib rapture doctrine has none of our verses on the table.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I truly get a headache when reading the pretribbers' attempts at describing their incredibly convoluted doctrine. It makes my head spin. Is the truth really that complicated? You have people believing in 5 raptures, 3 comings of Christ and other nonsense that is not mentioned anywhere in scripture. How can anyone make any sense of all that? Doesn't God want us to know the truth about these things? Did He purposely make it all into a 10,000 piece puzzle that we need to put together?

The truth is relatively simple, and I've been stating these things, to some degree since the mid-70s. 2 Thes 2 states, unequivocally, that Christ cannot come for his Church until he comes to actually destroy the Antichrist *with the breath of his mouth." That means Antichrist must be revealed 1st--Christ cannot come at just any time, any day, or at any time prior to the revelation of Antichrist and his actual destruction.

Jesus made it equally simple. Any so-called Return of Messiah *cannot be* before he comes in glory, in full revelation to the earth, in full angelic regalia. Simple enough?

But if you want to do any in-depth tracing of the belief over centuries and with reference to the original source material, you will find that the doctrine of the Coming of the Son of Man with the clouds originates in Dan 7, where the Son of Man comes from heaven with the clouds--just as Jesus said. And the context for this Coming from heaven is the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth coupled with the complete destruction of Antichrist and Antichristianity (this is not anti-Amill or anti-Premill--it is neutral in this respect).

But no matter how simply it is put, Dispensationalists and Pretribbers double down and make things even more complex in order to create doubt, in order to further the cause of confusion and division and disagreement. As you said, they create more comings of the Son of Man. And they even bicker over the meaning of words to hopefully bring in the smallest tangential evidence that what they say might be true. In fact, none of it is true, and none of it makes biblical sense. Thank you!!

To give you a single notable example in my own personal experience. I lived for a time in Orange County CA where Hal Lindsey did his teaching at Melodyland Christian Center, where I attended. And Chuck Smith, just down the street, was continuously proclaiming his Pretrib Coming beliefs. I began to write Smith questioning his doctrine as non-biblical. He ignored me even as I enjoyed Calvary Chapel concerts and other teachings that he gave that I thought wonderful and biblical. However, when I asked if he could handle a Postribber like me attending his church he essentially said no. "Can two walk together," he said, "if they be disagreed?"

On the other hand, my own pastor, Ralph Wilkerson, of Melodyland Christian Center I asked the same question. And he fully embraced me, regardless of my Postrib views (he was Pretrib).

Some people are hard-hearted. Smith ended up in the next couple of years doing something that he later regretted. He began to tell people to sell their possessions because he predicted Jesus was coming very soon. He later admitted that he "nearly" erred by giving dates of Jesus' Return.

People need to search their hearts to see what kind of attitude they have, regardless of their belief. But they certainly need to check out if they're over-complicating basic biblical teachings in order to disbelieve them and follow a popular prophetic school.

 

[rebuilder 454]

LOL. Not so. The Scriptures speak for themselves. Let us put your theology to the test. Let us examine your so-called "proof-texts" one by one.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 declares, “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

This passage corroborates the Posttrib position. We have already shown, Christ comes with and for His saints in one glorious final coming. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” We have also highlighted the fact the word rendered “remain” in our King James Version is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can assume from this meaning that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. Obviously, they endured the tribulation that this world affords to every saint.

1) the ac kills all refusing the mark.
2 ) mat 24 has two gatherings
3) The c dead rise first pretrib. Those dead believers have no glorified bodies. Jesus brings those saints without bodies back to unite with their bodies BEFORE those of us are raptured.
4) anywhere there is more than one gathering, you ENTIRE DEAL totally collapses.

Postrib rapture is pitiful in omitting verses

Flat out embarrassing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. Not so. The Scriptures speak for themselves. Let us put your theology to the test. Let us examine your so-called "proof-texts" one by one.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 declares, “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

This passage corroborates the Posttrib position. We have already shown, Christ comes with and for His saints in one glorious final coming. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” We have also highlighted the fact the word rendered “remain” in our King James Version is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can assume from this meaning that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. Obviously, they endured the tribulation that this world affords to every saint.

Agree. Well said. Jesus coming both with and for His saints at the same time lines up with this passage as well:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This shows Him coming with the elect from "the uttermost part of heaven" and for the elect "from the uttermost part of the earth". There is no basis whatsoever to see 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 as a different event than Mark 13:24-27 (Matthew 24:29-31).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1) the ac kills all refusing the mark.
2 ) mat 24 has two gatherings
3) The c dead rise first pretrib. Those dead believers have no glorified bodies. Jesus brings those saints without bodies back to unite with their bodies BEFORE those of us are raptured.
4) anywhere there is more than one gathering, you ENTIRE DEAL totally collapses.

Postrib rapture is pitiful in omitting verses

Flat out embarrassing.

Great exegesis there. Wow. Who can possibly argue with this?

To anyone following this discussion, please compare posts 1,320 and 1,325 to this one I quoted from rebuilder (1,324) and think about who is backing up their views with clear scripture and who is not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It makes their heads spin as well. Read their posts. They cannot even articulate a basic argument. It is convoluted mumbo-jumbo. They are incapable of exegeting simple Scripture. I wonder why?

This is a good point. Do they even understand what they're saying? You have to wonder.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The truth is relatively simple, and I've been stating these things, to some degree since the mid-70s. 2 Thes 2 states, unequivocally, that Christ cannot come for his Church until he comes to actually destroy the Antichrist *with the breath of his mouth." That means Antichrist must be revealed 1st--Christ cannot come at just any time, any day, or at any time prior to the revelation of Antichrist and his actual destruction.

Jesus made it equally simple. Any so-called Return of Messiah *cannot be* before he comes in glory, in full revelation to the earth, in full angelic regalia. Simple enough?

But if you want to do any in-depth tracing of the belief over centuries and with reference to the original source material, you will find that the doctrine of the Coming of the Son of Man with the clouds originates in Dan 7, where the Son of Man comes from heaven with the clouds--just as Jesus said. And the context for this Coming from heaven is the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth coupled with the complete destruction of Antichrist and Antichristianity (this is not anti-Amill or anti-Premill--it is neutral in this respect).

But no matter how simply it is put, Dispensationalists and Pretribbers double down and make things even more complex in order to create doubt, in order to further the cause of confusion and division and disagreement. As you said, they create more comings of the Son of Man. And they even bicker over the meaning of words to hopefully bring in the smallest tangential evidence that what they say might be true. In fact, none of it is true, and none of it makes biblical sense. Thank you!!

To give you a single notable example in my own personal experience. I lived for a time in Orange County CA where Hal Lindsey did his teaching at Melodyland Christian Center, where I attended. And Chuck Smith, just down the street, was continuously proclaiming his Pretrib Coming beliefs. I began to write Smith questioning his doctrine as non-biblical. He ignored me even as I enjoyed Calvary Chapel concerts and other teachings that he gave that I thought wonderful and biblical. However, when I asked if he could handle a Postribber like me attending his church he essentially said no. "Can two walk together," he said, "if they be disagreed?"

On the other hand, my own pastor, Ralph Wilkerson, of Melodyland Christian Center I asked the same question. And he fully embraced me, regardless of my Postrib views (he was Pretrib).

Some people are hard-hearted. Smith ended up in the next couple of years doing something that he later regretted. He began to tell people to sell their possessions because he predicted Jesus was coming very soon. He later admitted that he "nearly" erred by giving dates of Jesus' Return.

People need to search their hearts to see what kind of attitude they have, regardless of their belief. But they certainly need to check out if they're over-complicating basic biblical teachings in order to disbelieve them and follow a popular prophetic school.

Rev 14...2 gatherings with no warrior king.
Mat 24...one gathering by a warrior king, and one with Jesus gathering the bride PREFLOOD/ PRETRIB/ PREJUDGEMENT,
with A 50-50 section of a group taken/left.
Acts 1 uses " like manner " in depicting the rapture.
No horses, no warrior king, no antichrist, no army of devil followers, no mark of the beast, and on and on.
( your template would surely have at least one out of 10????. But no, it has nothing whatsoever of " like manner".)
This is a tiny bit of why the rapture is not alongside the billion or so white horses at the end of the trib that blacken the sky.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Bible= two gatherings in mat 24

Nope. Two references to the same gathering. Your two gatherings theory contradicts a great deal of scripture.

= two gatherings in Rev 19.

What are you basing this on? I can only guess since you never actually exegete any scripture.

No postrib ever brought that to the table.
You can watch hours of postribber teachers and if they do address it, it is defensive somehow trying to make it into some pretzel.

Postrib rapture doctrine has none of our verses on the table.

Lying doesn't help your case at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev 14...2 gatherings with no warrior king.
Mat 24...one gathering by a warrior king, and one with Jesus gathering the bride PREFLOOD/ PRETRIB/ PREJUDGEMENT,
with A 50-50 section of a group taken/left.
Acts 1 uses " like manner " in depicting the rapture.
No horses, no warrior king, no antichrist, no army of devil followers, no mark of the beast, and on and on.
( your template would surely have at least one out of 10????. But no, it has nothing whatsoever of " like manner".)
This is a tiny bit of why the rapture is not alongside the billion or so white horses at the end of the trib that blacken the sky.

What in the world are you going on about? For Jesus to return from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven simply means He will return bodily and visibly just as He ascended to heaven bodily and visibly. Reading more into it than that is a case of adding to scripture to make it fit your doctrine.

 

[WPM]

If it was won long ago, why did you find it necessary to change the scripture to make your position appear to be correct. It's because it was clear in the scripture that you were in error. Again.

More avoidance. Address the Scriptures. Discuss the Scriptures. It is time to admit you have been taught wrong.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

More avoidance. Address the Scriptures. Discuss the Scriptures. It is time to admit you have been taught wrong.

We have asked them to exegete the scriptures many times at this point and they will not do so. I don't believe they ever will even try. The reason why is clear. They can't. They know that if they try to do so it will expose the folly of their views. All they can do is make claims about what they want to believe while knowing that they can't back up their claims with clear scripture like we can.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Great exegesis there. Wow. Who can possibly argue with this?

To anyone following this discussion, please compare posts 1,320 and 1,325 to this one I quoted from rebuilder (1,324) and think about who is backing up their views with clear scripture and who is not.

You need me to look up where the ac kills all refusing the mark.?
Rev13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Here is more backing up what I already posted:

Rev 13
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Obviously there is no such thing as a rapture of believers at the end of the trib.
There is no antichrist chasing elusive believers from cave to cave and then some tiny group of 40 believers the main harvest of the rapture.

Scripture says, not me, that all either take the mark or die.
I have no idea who started that notion of believers making it through the gt.
The Bible SOLIDLY testifies against it.

Anything else you want looked up again?
Mat 24?
Acts 1?
Rev14 ?
Rev19?
Mat 25?
The 50-50 of mat 24?
No problem at all bringing the verses I USE REGULARLY to easily defend pretrib rapture
The 2 escape verses?
I can bring it on with great ease.
Just ask.
No worries.

 

[WPM]

Bible= two gatherings in mat 24
= two gatherings in Rev 19.

No postrib ever brought that to the table.
You can watch hours of postribber teachers and if they do address it, it is defensive somehow trying to make it into some pretzel.

Postrib rapture doctrine has none of our verses on the table.

That is the same gathering. There only is one! Why do Pretribbers have a problem with quoting Scripture? Because to do so would negate their speculations.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your facetious sniping reveals your immaturity. I never claimed any of those things as having been fulfilled. Except one. The present historical reality of the Antichrist in our midst. I am not a preterist. I am historicist. Do some research and find out what that means.

And let me point out something to you. It isn't the Antichrist, the sea-beast of Revelation 13, that enforces his own mark. No. That honour goes to the land beast of Revelation 13. Please explain if you can, how it is possible for a false prophet, a presumed individual religious ruler of sorts, to enforce a literal mark, whatever it may be, upon the population of the world now numbering over 8 billion?

We saw MANDATORY vaccines just a few months ago.
We see DAILY events and disasters all over the world.
TV and internet
Where you been kid?????

 

[rebuilder 454]

That is the same gathering. There only is one! Why do Pretribbers have a problem with quoting Scripture? Because to do so would negate their speculations.

Jesus said before the flood .
By now you are just batting the air

 

[WPM]

You need me to look up where the ac kills all refusing the mark.?
Rev13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Here is more backing up what I already posted:

Rev 13
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Obviously there is no such thing as a rapture of believers at the end of the trib.
There is no antichrist chasing elusive believers from cave to cave and then some tiny group of 40 believers the main harvest of the rapture.

Scripture says, not me, that all either take the mark or die.
I have no idea who started that notion of believers making it through the gt.
The Bible SOLIDLY testifies against it.

Anything else you want looked up again?
Mat 24?
Acts 1?
Rev14 ?
Rev19?
Mat 25?
The 50-50 of mat 24?
No problem at all bringing the verses I USE REGULARLY to easily defend pretrib rapture
The 2 escape verses?
I can bring it on with great ease.
Just ask.
No worries.

II Thessalonians 2:1-8 says, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Christ (most modern translations say “the day of the Lord”) is at hand is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [Gr. apostasía or apostasy] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (or restraineth) that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness [Gr. epiphaneia] of his coming [Gr. parousia].”

Hello! Antichrist is destroyed at His next coming. This is the time when we are gathered together unto the Lord at the catching away.

 

[WPM]

Jesus said before the flood .
By now you are just batting the air

Can you start exegeting Scripture? Do you even know what that is. Why do you even bother when you have nothing but private opinions and convoluted language to bring to the table?

God's people were rescued in total before the flood and all the wicked were destroyed. There is no allowance for your imaginary 7-year trib.

 

[WPM]

The 50-50 of mat 24?
No problem at all bringing the verses I USE REGULARLY to easily defend pretrib rapture
The 2 escape verses?
I can bring it on with great ease.
Just ask.
No worries.

You do not have anything. That is why you cannot quote or exegete God's Word. You just list what your teachers told you supported this nonsense and you bought into it. Now you are left holding the baby, and have nothing of evidential worth to present.

• Does Jesus have 5 or 10 brides in your estimation?
• Do you have to be a female virgin to make the rapture?
• Do you have to have a literal lamp burning with oil at the actual moment Jesus comes to perform your Pretrib rapture?

 

[WPM]

We have asked them to exegete the scriptures many times at this point and they will not do so. I don't believe they ever will even try. The reason why is clear. They can't. They know that if they try to do so it will expose the folly of their views. All they can do is make claims about what they want to believe while knowing that they can't back up their claims with clear scripture like we can.

They cannot quote or exegete God's Word. All they seem to have is the Pretrib soundbites they were taught. Move from there and they are completely clueless.