The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[The Light]

Totally. I've written many posts and started a few threads on that very topic. I will start a new thread, with copy/paste, posts of mine from previous. Many will come in and disagree and offer alternatives. It will be up to you to decide what is biblical, historical, and/or conjecture.

I look forward to reading your post.

 

[Brakelite]

Since you are an expert. Produce in history the mark , the martyrs refusing it, and the antichrist who is world wide worshipped.
A bonus would be the 144k rsptured. The two witnesses raptured. And the jews raptured in rev14:14.
What of the flying scorpions? When was that reported?

Your facetious sniping reveals your immaturity. I never claimed any of those things as having been fulfilled. Except one. The present historical reality of the Antichrist in our midst. I am not a preterist. I am historicist. Do some research and find out what that means.

And let me point out something to you. It isn't the Antichrist, the sea-beast of Revelation 13, that enforces his own mark. No. That honour goes to the land beast of Revelation 13. Please explain if you can, how it is possible for a false prophet, a presumed individual religious ruler of sorts, to enforce a literal mark, whatever it may be, upon the population of the world now numbering over 8 billion?

 

[Brakelite]

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What is the tribulation of those days?

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation. This has not being going since the time of Christ.

Nothing you ever say agrees with the Word of God. You would think it would occur to you that you are incorrect. But alas. Never happens.

There has been 1 tribulation since the 7th century when papal Rome waged war against God's people throughout mediaeval Europe until the 18th century. It is estimated by many historians that at least 50 million souls perished through torture, displacement, execution, and persecution through crusades and inquisitions and war. That is tribulation. That concluded at the close of the 18th century when France entered Rome and took the Pope captive in 1798 and disbanded the college of Cardinals, declared the papal states a republic, thus dissolving the church's political power. This was the apparent mortal wound of revelation 13. It is now in the process of being healed.
However, there is a tribulation to come of greater intensity, but shorter duration. Scriptures call it the time of Jacob's trouble. Jesus said there would be nothing like it to compare with in history. That is followed by the plagues, culminating in the second coming and the only "rapture", and the first resurrection of God's people. All God's people, from Adam to this present day, will meet the Lord in the air, and be taken to heaven. All the wicked will die. The earth will be empty for 1000 years until the stunts return with Jesus in the new Jerusalem, the wicked resurrected, judged, and destroyed. Along with Satan and his angels. Then Jesus creates the new heaven and earth, sin and sinners are no more, and peace and harmony will reign throughout the universe for all eternity.

 

[Brakelite]

I look forward to reading your post.

It will be a series. There's a lot of information. Not a small study, and not for the faint hearted.

 

[WPM]

I have brought countless scriptures. You however walk without understanding. Do you think I don't understand your tactics. All those who think they have replaced Israel follow the same pattern. I could post a hundred scriptures and it would change nothing. You would babble on and on about no proof being presented, when in fact the proof is undeniable.

One coming like the days of Noah and one coming like the days of Lot.
One coming the Lord Himself comes and one coming He sends His angels.
One coming is the grain harvest, and one coming is the fruit harvest
One coming we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass and one coming when you see these things begin to come to pass, look up.
There are two folds.
The fullness of the Gentiles has to be brought in before part of Israel has its blindness removed.
The fig tree has two harvests.
Jacob had two brides.

I could post all the scriptures and more and it would change nothing. You are not interested in the truth, as you have proven by altering the scripture to support your position. The time is very, very, very short. And you have no idea what is getting ready to happen. There are five foolish and five wise. Who do you think the foolish are? The ones that are watching and waiting for the coming of the Lord or those looking for the Antichrist?

Again, this is all private opinion and human imagination. Scripture does not teach this or allow it. That is why none of you can disect or exegete a scriptural passage or present a biblical rebuttal. Read this thread.

You have double vision. You have invented a third coming, which does not exist. You have no Scripture whatsover to support this, only extra-biblical theories that your mentors taught you. I suspect you know that.

The debate has been won long ago. This is all noise, frustration, avoidance and ad hominem from you 3 now.

 

[Brakelite]

No
All 10 were "sanctified" or set apart. They are all virgins and described as such. Undeniably Christians.
The difference was the AMOUNT OF OIL.
That is ALL.
The AMOUNT of oil was the "worthy vs unworthy" GAME CHANGER.
BORN AGAIN Christians shut out.
That is Undeniable.

Ummm, that's what I said. I simply waxed a little more eloquently on the subject of their characters as a result of not having the holy Spirit.

 

[Brakelite]

That would be the Covenant Relationship with Israel as King during the Millennium reign, Day of the Lord. Romans 11:26-27 and Jeremiah 30 to 33.

That would not be with the church, as the church is still in Paradise for another 1,000 years, until the New Jerusalem descends in the NHNE.

Paradise is where the throne of God is. Where we will be. Spiritual Israel.
KJV Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God....
KJV Revelation 22:1-2
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[WPM]

I have seen these bogus statements about Jews, no longer exist, over and over on this board.
When I see that I think of a ball game in Yankee Stadium, and some fan sitting close to the left field player , telling him: "hey buddy, baseball no longer exists."
" it was done away with many many years ago," ...and that left fielder just kind of glancing over his way, letting out a chuckle, and then just flat out ignoring him, knowing that there's something wrong with that guy.

This is ridilcuous. You must be running out of arguments.

Again, no Scripture, no biblical arguments, or no exegesis. This is getting old.

The game is won. Checkmate.

 

[WPM]

Here is yet another verse for you to ignore, modify ,or muddy up.
Take a look at Acts chapter 1, "this same Jesus that you see ascending up into heaven shall return and like manner."
The pre-trib Rapture Doctrine fits this absolutely perfectly.
But no other Doctrine has the components and setting of "like manner".
I don't know if you're "post trib pre-wrath ", or "post-wrath return", but, none of that fits "like manner". The only doctrine that fits "like manner" is the pre-tribulation Gathering of the Bride.
All the components are there.
Jesus coming, not as a warrior king on a white horse , not with a sickle in his hand , (of Revelation 14), but he's coming with the small group standing on Earth looking up.

That's us and the emminant return.
looking up for Jesus the groom, not on a white horse, not with a sickle in his hand of Revelation 14.

So that's another little deal that you absolutely must change or muddy it up somehow.
... or just flat out ignore it

I already addressed this in detail in 649 and repeated it for you in 758. You have already completely avoided both, as you do. That is how Pretribs engage. They prefer their own extra-biblical theories and forced types.

Acts 1:10 demolishes the secret rapture, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven that will be the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

Contrary to what do you have been taught, the second coming of Christ is not a secret event. Such a mistaken view emanates from a wrong understanding of Scripture. Revelation 1:7, speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

Jesus warned in Matthew 24:23-27: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden and visible as lightning. What is more sudden and visually spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

 

[The Light]

Again, this is all private opinion and human imagination. Scripture does not teach this or allow it. That is why none of you can disect or exegete a scriptural passage or present a biblical rebuttal. Read this thread.

You have double vision. You have invented a third coming, which does not exist. You have no Scripture whatsover to support this, only extra-biblical theories that your mentors taught you. I suspect you know that.

The debate has been won long ago. This is all noise, frustration, avoidance and ad hominem fom you 3 now.

If it was won long ago, why did you find it necessary to change the scripture to make your position appear to be correct. It's because it was clear in the scripture that you were in error. Again.

 

[Brakelite]

This is not necessarily prophetic. This is about punishment that God places on people for disobedience or lack of faith.

Some apply that to prophecy.

Even the 70 years in captivity was a punishment on the southern kingdom.

The 70 weeks may have been a direct relation to the 70 years, or just God working in His own time frame. 490 years is still short of 500 years which is half a time to God.

I think most would agree that Daniel lived 500 years before the earthly ministry of Jesus.

Times, time, and half a time is 3500 years. That is good enough for me. Placing 2300 years or anything else, into history is just date setting. Many want to date set, and interpret the 70 weeks into their comfortable human dates from history.

Daniel said that Nebuchadnezzar lived as a wild animal "until seven times will pass over thee".
KJV Daniel 4:32
32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

Seven years.

Times, time, and half a time is 3 and a half years. Daniel 12:7 and Daniel 7:25 speak of the same power. That same power is also referred to in Revelation 13:5, and 11:2. That power is papal Rome. The same time period is measured against the time God's people were persecuted by that power. You will find that in Revelation 11:3, 12:6, and 12:14. That period ran from 538AD to effectiv 1798AD. 538AD was the year Justinian's decree to give the Pope official authority (see Revelation 13:2) over other bishops was made effective through the decisive battle of Rome when Belisarius ousted the Goths who were inhibiting the bishop of Rome from exercising autonomy and authority. In 1798 Napoleon's general Berthier entered Rome, placed the Pope under arrest who subsequently died in exile, disbanded the college of Cardinals, declared the papal states a republic, and effectively dismantled the political power and authority of the Roman bishop over secular nations. Her tenure as a union of church and state came to a brief end. This was the head that "as it were was wounded to death". That wound is now healing, quickly. Starting in 1928 when Mussolini reinstated the Catholic Bishop as a political power in the Vatican. His power has since grown exponentially. But ironically, it won't be Rome that enforces the mark of its own authority. That pleasure behind to the false prophet, the second beast of Revelation 13. Protestant America.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Thes 4

1 Cor 15

You will find the two raptures referenced by Paul in these chapters.

There are not two different raptures there. Since you are the one making this claim, prove it. Your claims mean nothing without backing them up with scripture. So, get to it. Please.

You would think it would occur to you that you have the Church going through the wrath of God. Paul says we are not appointed to wrath.

I do not. What are you basing that on? Please back up your comments with scripture if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[Brakelite]

This is not necessarily prophetic. This is about punishment that God places on people for disobedience or lack of faith.

Some apply that to prophecy.

Even the 70 years in captivity was a punishment on the southern kingdom.

The 70 weeks may have been a direct relation to the 70 years, or just God working in His own time frame. 490 years is still short of 500 years which is half a time to God.

I think most would agree that Daniel lived 500 years before the earthly ministry of Jesus.

Times, time, and half a time is 3500 years. That is good enough for me. Placing 2300 years or anything else, into history is just date setting. Many want to date set, and interpret the 70 weeks into their comfortable human dates from history.

Daniel said that Nebuchadnezzar lived as a wild animal "until seven times will pass over thee".
KJV Daniel 4:32
32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

Seven years.

Times, time, and half a time is 3 and a half prophetic symbolic years. Daniel 12:7 and Daniel 7:25 speak of the same power. That same power is also referred to in Revelation 13:5, and 11:2. That power is papal Rome. The same time period is measured against the time God's people were persecuted by that power. You will find that in Revelation 11:3, 12:6, and 12:14. That period ran from 538AD to effectiv 1798AD. 538AD was the year Justinian's decree to give the Pope official authority (see Revelation 13:2) over other bishops was made effective through the decisive battle of Rome when Belisarius ousted the Goths who were inhibiting the bishop of Rome from exercising autonomy and authority. In 1798 Napoleon's general Berthier entered Rome, placed the Pope under arrest who subsequently died in exile, disbanded the college of Cardinals, declared the papal states a republic, and effectively dismantled the political power and authority of the Roman bishop over secular nations. Her tenure as a union of church and state came to a brief end. This was the head that "as it were was wounded to death". That wound is now healing, quickly. Starting in 1928 when Mussolini reinstated the Catholic Bishop as a political power in the Vatican. His power has since grown exponentially. But ironically, it won't be Rome that enforces the mark of its own authority. That pleasure behind to the false prophet, the second beast of Revelation 13. Protestant America.

BTW. All those time periods are symbolic, just as the rest of the prophecy is symbolic imagery. 1260 days....3 and a half years...42 months... Times, time and a half; all 1260 prophetic symbolic days which equal literal years. A day for a year. There are several confirmed applications where fulfillment meet the prophetic time period. One example is the prophecy of Jesus in His letter to the church of Smyrna. He said, "you shall have tribulation 10 days". All the letters have applications to local literal churches, but are also applicable to historic iris of time from the time of John to the second coming. Smyrna's time team from roughly 100AD to 323AD. Diocletian ruled during a party of that period, and was known to have brought great tribulation upon the church for 10 years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Answering a question with a question is about as good as it gets for you.

When will you actually address a text in view instead of your constant avoidance?

Where does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 mention "tribulation" and what is its duration according to that passage?​

Since he won't answer it, I will. The only tribulation of any kind mentioned in that passage is found in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and it occurs upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. It involves "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape". That destruction from which no one will escape on the day of the Lord is described here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

See how easy it was for me to answer your question? Pre-tribs, on the other hand, have a great deal of trouble answering that question because they turn something simple into something convoluted and unintelligible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. It's the neighbor kid that was always picking fights, getting pounded and never learned.

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You must be associating with me somebody else's position. Those aren't my positions!

I'm not Amil, so you're confusing me with somebody else. Later...

No, he's not confusing you with someone else. He's simply not understanding what you're saying, which is common for him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where does 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 mention "tribulation" and what is its duration according to that passage?

Be sure to answer King of the Strawman.

Why would Paul mention the rapture in 1 Thess 4:14-17 followed immediately by a description of His wrath that will come down at His return (1 Thess 5:2-3), but not mention any supposed period of tribulation in between? Did he just forget to mention it?

He also doesn't mention this supposed period of tribulation that you believe in anywhere else. Surely, he would have mentioned it somewhere if it was actually going to happen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is your 3rd coming. Your rapture is a coming (parousia) right? Your doctrine is a convoluted mess. You do not seem to understand what you believe. What ever angle you look at it, it contradicts itself at every turn.

I truly get a headache when reading the pretribbers' attempts at describing their incredibly convoluted doctrine. It makes my head spin. Is the truth really that complicated? You have people believing in 5 raptures, 3 comings of Christ and other nonsense that is not mentioned anywhere in scripture. How can anyone make any sense of all that? Doesn't God want us to know the truth about these things? Did He purposely make it all into a 10,000 piece puzzle that we need to put together?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your facetious sniping reveals your immaturity. I never claimed any of those things as having been fulfilled. Except one. The present historical reality of the Antichrist in our midst. I am not a preterist. I am historicist. Do some research and find out what that means.

And let me point out something to you. It isn't the Antichrist, the sea-beast of Revelation 13, that enforces his own mark. No. That honour goes to the land beast of Revelation 13. Please explain if you can, how it is possible for a false prophet, a presumed individual religious ruler of sorts, to enforce a literal mark, whatever it may be, upon the population of the world now numbering over 8 billion?

Covid.
That was a test

World wide control big time.
no I am not going to research what you believe.
You make claims

You back them up.

 

[WPM]

If it was won long ago, why did you find it necessary to change the scripture to make your position appear to be correct. It's because it was clear in the scripture that you were in error. Again.

LOL. Not so. The Scriptures speak for themselves. Let us put your theology to the test. Let us examine your so-called "proof-texts" one by one.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 declares, “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

This passage corroborates the Posttrib position. We have already shown, Christ comes with and for His saints in one glorious final coming. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” We have also highlighted the fact the word rendered “remain” in our King James Version is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can assume from this meaning that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. Obviously, they endured the tribulation that this world affords to every saint.