The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[covenantee]

Just want to put this out there for everyone to understand. I don't agree with barely anyone here regarding the timing and the actual events and players in these last days. I do agree that there is no pretrib rapture. The inspired Psalmist said we are to be witnesses to the rise and fall of the wicked. In other words, we will be living through all the events of the last days, will witness them, but be protected from the plagues that are poured out at the end. Just as Israel were witnesses to the obstinacy of Pharoah and his rejection of God's prophet, yet were protected from the effects of the plagues. God could have taken Israel out of Egypt, then sent the plagues. He didn't. He wanted the story told. His justice and power witnessed, that they could later testify to God's goodness and mercy in His dealing with Israel. So it will be at the end.
KJV Psalms 91:1-11
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

As for the setting up of God kingdom on earth and a millennial reign? Yes, there is a 1000 years during which Satan is bound but there are no live humans in the planet. All are in heaven. The earth isn't recreated until the 1000 years is over. Only then do the meek inherit the earth, only then will it be actually habitable again, when the new Jerusalem descends from heaven, the wicked are raised from their sleep to face their judgement and ultimate destruction...the second death.
There are numerous other differences also, but I don't want to recreate this thread in my image.

What "Israel" are you referring to?

God has ever and always identified His Israel solely by faith and obedience.

Nothing else.

 

[Brakelite]

What "Israel" are you referring to?

God has ever and always identified His Israel solely by faith and obedience.

Nothing else.

Jacob earned his new name because he was humble, he confessed his sin, and he prevailed in his overnight skirmish with Jesus. He didn't give up. That name applies to anyone who reflects the same character as Jacob. He wasn't named Israel because he was a political entity or nation.
KJV Romans 2:29
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
In Revelation, the mystery of God is finished, and this them ushers in the second coming. What is the mystery of God?
KJV Colossians 1:27
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Only when Christ's character is formed with God's people... The true Israel of God, will Christ come to take his people home.

 

[The Light]

This infantile behavior is hard to deal with on an adult forum.

The truth is hard to deal with for some.

When are you going to actual address the biblical arguments presented by others and stop the pettiness?

I do all time. And you run.

I've asked several times to show where the rapture is in Revelation.

Where in Revelation is your rapture? Bet you can't find it.

My only regret is that I didn't come across this discussion and the pettiness and avoidance of you 3 when i was a Pretribber. I would have abandoned it a lot quicker

It's all about your doctrine and nothing about the truth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Rev 14...2 gatherings with no warrior king.
Mat 24...one gathering by a warrior king, and one with Jesus gathering the bride PREFLOOD/ PRETRIB/ PREJUDGEMENT,
with A 50-50 section of a group taken/left.
Acts 1 uses " like manner " in depicting the rapture.
No horses, no warrior king, no antichrist, no army of devil followers, no mark of the beast, and on and on.
( your template would surely have at least one out of 10????. But no, it has nothing whatsoever of " like manner".)
This is a tiny bit of why the rapture is not alongside the billion or so white horses at the end of the trib that blacken the sky.

You should study the argument, which is the illegitimate "argument from silence." The lack of information in a particular vision does not prove anything.

As I've been saying, you need doctrine-quality statements in Scriptures to prove anything. You get that with Postrib--you don't get that with Pretrib.

Pretrib contradicts the Postrib-exclusive statements in the Bible. You cannot have anything but Postrib if the Bible is actually teaching Postrib as the exclusive option. And it does, as I've been showing.

1) 2 Thes 2: Christ cannot come unless Antichrist is both revealed and destroyed. Christ's coming is, in fact, the means of Antichrist's destruction.
2) Olivet Discourse: Christ cannot come before his coming from heaven. This excludes a Pretrib "Secret" Rapture.
3) Dan 7: the Son of Man comes from heaven, with the clouds, to destroy the Kingdom of Antichrist and to establish God's Kingdom. The context is clearly Postrib, and is the basis for NT teaching on the coming of the Son of Man from heaven.

Pretrib opposes these points, and attempts to push an alternative view. As such, it is opposed to the explicit teaching of Scripture.

 

[Brakelite]

I look forward to reading your post.

Who, or what, is the dreaded bogey man of prophecy?

There is conjecture among those interested in prophecy, that the final Antichrist is Satan himself. Most would be aware that the Antichrist has a few aliases. "Man of sin" (2 Thess. 2:3); "little horn" (Daniel 7:24,25); the second phase of the little horn of (Daniel 8:10); King of the North...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[WPM]

The truth is hard to deal with for some.

I do all time. And you run.

I've asked several times to show where the rapture is in Revelation.

Where in Revelation is your rapture? Bet you can't find it.


It's all about your doctrine and nothing about the truth.

I presented 2 lengthy posts yesterday, and you did your usual - totally avoided them. It is a waste of time engaging with you 3.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You should study the argument, which is the illegitimate "argument from silence." The lack of information in a particular vision does not prove anything.

As I've been saying, you need doctrine-quality statements in Scriptures to prove anything. You get that with Postrib--you don't get that with Pretrib.

Pretrib contradicts the Postrib-exclusive statements in the Bible. You cannot have anything but Postrib if the Bible is actually teaching Postrib as the exclusive option. And it does, as I've been showing.

1) 2 Thes 2: Christ cannot come unless Antichrist is both revealed and destroyed. Christ's coming is, in fact, the means of Antichrist's destruction.
2) Olivet Discourse: Christ cannot come before his coming from heaven. This excludes a Pretrib "Secret" Rapture.
3) Dan 7: the Son of Man comes from heaven, with the clouds, to destroy the Kingdom of Antichrist and to establish God's Kingdom. The context is clearly Postrib, and is the basis for NT teaching on the coming of the Son of Man from heaven.

Pretrib opposes these points, and attempts to push an alternative view. As such, it is opposed to the explicit teaching of Scripture.

1) it says "revealed" ...that is the only condition. You added another.
" revealed" ????
Yes, most definately!!!!
He is revealed, pretrib, then the rapture happens a few days later. Ahem...which is still pretrib.
2) in the pretrib rapture, you know the verses you just omitted, Jesus does not return to earth. That return is after the gt. You know, how you just omitted " before the flood 50-50 taken/left behind. Then omitted Rev 19, return WITH THE SAINTS.
3) YES. We both agree, as most everyone does, that Jesus returns postrib with your omitted saints vividly depicted as already in heaven during the tribulation.

Your position is weak friend as you just demonstrated it hinges on omission of the pretrib rapture verses.

You are looking from the outside at the house.
You try to make a case against the furniture in the house.
Your case rests on omission.
You prove your case by many attempts, but the basis is 2 things. 1 ) "I have never seen any furniture in the house."
2) "there just can not be any there, because...."
And yet you refuse to talk to the inhabitants.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I presented 2 lengthy posts yesterday, and you did your usual - totally avoided them. It is a waste of time engaging with you 3.

Hint hint hint....
Hope this helps:
There are 3 " caught ups" in the book of Revelation.
You know...the stuff everyone but you runs from and hides.
Oh wait, you say that while running and hiding.

 

[The Light]

I presented 2 lengthy posts yesterday, and you did your usual - totally avoided them. It is a waste of time engaging with you 3.

Dude. You make hundreds of posts that are total nonsense. I don't have time to address all your posts. In fact I didn't even see your posts until now as I looked back to see what you are talking about.

I have a full schedule today, but I will address your lengthy posts at some point today.

 

[rebuilder 454]

...oh...and omitting verses.

 

[WPM]

Hint hint hint....
Hope this helps:
There are 3 " caught ups" in the book of Revelation.
You know...the stuff everyone but you runs from and hides.
Oh wait, you say that while running and hiding.

How about presenting hard clear Scripture instead of your crytic evasive posts? After all, this is a Bible forum. People are watching on. They are seeing your lack of biblical evidence.

 

[WPM]

Dude. You make hundreds of posts that are total nonsense. I don't have time to address all your posts. In fact I didn't even see your posts until now as I looked back to see what you are talking about.

I have a full schedule today, but I will address your lengthy posts at some point today.

Ok. Appreciate. You should automatically receive notifications. Please check before posting such comments.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Just want to put this out there for everyone to understand. I don't agree with barely anyone here regarding the timing and the actual events and players in these last days. I do agree that there is no pretrib rapture. The inspired Psalmist said we are to be witnesses to the rise and fall of the wicked. In other words, we will be living through all the events of the last days, will witness them, but be protected from the plagues that are poured out at the end. Just as Israel were witnesses to the obstinacy of Pharoah and his rejection of God's prophet, yet were protected from the effects of the plagues. God could have taken Israel out of Egypt, then sent the plagues. He didn't. He wanted the story told. His justice and power witnessed, that they could later testify to God's goodness and mercy in His dealing with Israel. So it will be at the end.
KJV Psalms 91:1-11
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

As for the setting up of God kingdom on earth and a millennial reign? Yes, there is a 1000 years during which Satan is bound but there are no live humans in the planet. All are in heaven. The earth isn't recreated until the 1000 years is over. Only then do the meek inherit the earth, only then will it be actually habitable again, when the new Jerusalem descends from heaven, the wicked are raised from their sleep to face their judgement and ultimate destruction...the second death.
There are numerous other differences also, but I don't want to recreate this thread in my image.

We have always seen the rise and fall of the wicked.
Many times God's people were allotted an escape.
There are at least 2 escape verses.
The AC kills ALL REFUSING THE MARK.
THE 50 50 of mat 24 and again in mat 25 is a dynamic only a pretribber can unpack.
It only fits a pretrib rapture.
By omission, we see all doctrines make their case...except the pretrib rapture doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

How about presenting hard clear Scripture instead of your crytic evasive posts? After all, this is a Bible forum. People are watching on. They are seeing your lack of biblical evidence.

More hints needed?????
1)John
2)The two witnesses
3)The 2 Jewish gatherings during the trib.
Yes all see that you do not know this basic Bible 101.
You are showing them that.
Need the verses????
I can also do that homework for you.
I saw it years ago, but I do not follow your teachers that omit verses.
There are maybe 6 or 7 raptures in the Bible.
God is a rapture God.
Oh...Rapture = "caught up".
God Is the " catching up" God.
Most of those raptures He never touches earth.
Only one does he touch earth.
Can you show us that one?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Where does this say that the beast "kills all refusing the mark"? It looks like that is your assumption. It says he makes war with the saints and overcomes them, but does not say he literally overcomes (kills) all of them. Your doctrine is based purely on assumptions and speculation.
It

If you read all of Revelation 13, then you know that the context here is only those whose names are not written in the book of life. Your hyper-literalism is doing you no favors here.

Tell me, does the following say that God would pour out His Spirit on literally all people?

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Using your hyper-literal method of interpretation, we would have no choice but to conclude that this passage is saying that God would pour out His Spirit upon literally all people. And, yet, we all know that is not what it is saying and the context is only all believers, not literally all people. We should similarly discern that Revelation 13:16-17 is not referring to literally all people, but only to all people whose names are not written in the book of life.


LOL. How can we take you seriously when you say things like this? It's impossible.


False. It's clearly you saying that and only assuming that scripture says it.


Those who have much more discernment than you. Those who consider context as well as the rest of scripture instead of interpreting a passage in isolation without any care about context or whether or not your interpretation contradicts other scripture.


It's hilarious that you think you proved anything here besides that you are willing to make scripture say whatever you want it to say.


Yes. Prove convincingly that there are two completely separate gatherings of believers taught there.


I assume you're referring to one being taken and one left, right? Yes, please cover that again and show me exactly what it says happens to those who are left. Don't forget to keep other scripture like Luke 17:32-37 in mind when exegeting that passage so that you don't come up with an interpretation which contradicts passages like that one.

It says nothing at all what happens to those left behind. You take an idiom by Jesus and twist it in hopes to make a case against the previous verses.

Your defense of a pretrib rapture is extremely weak. You are too arrogant to see that.

Uh, yep, all take the mark that are not written in the lambs book of life.
You got it correct.
The rest of your post is me showing in scripture where he kills all refusing the mark, and you going against the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Ok. You can have your way. We can use survive.

Then we which are alive and remain(survive) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It changes nothing. They are caught up or raptured.

You are very confused. You think you believe in a post trib rapture. However, you believe in a post wrath rapture.

It just dawned on me that I can not remember a postribber addressing or bringing to the table the phrase " caught up".
Have you ever seen them bring that to the discussion?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why do you say things like this? What is the reason that you are so extremely immature? If you disagree with my doctrine, fine. So be it. But, to accuse me of not studying the scriptures? What a lie! You know that's not true. I have given detailed exegesis of scripture here many times. That can't be done without studying scripture. And you know it. But, you still say things like this. What is wrong with you?


No, I see it perfectly well. And I can see that the two witnesses are also called "two olive trees" which represents the church (Romans 11:11-24).


No. Where does it describe the rapture of the 144,000? Be specific.


Goodness gracious. Are you reading anything I'm saying? I have specifically quoted Revelation 14:14-16 to you several times. And you still ask me this? Do you want to be taken seriously or not? If you can't remember anything you're told, then how can you be taken seriously?


LOL. You are unable to see the parallels in the book that each refer to the same one rapture. Paul only wrote about one rapture. With the understanding that the word "rapture" specifically refers to being gathered or caught up, he only specifically referred to it in 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 2 Thess 2:1-3. To be clear, I'm not saying he never referred elsewhere to other things that occur on the same day as the rapture, such as in 1 Corinthians 15. Surely, if there was more than one rapture (gathering of believers to Christ), he would have wrote about all of them. But, he only wrote about one. You have no answer for this.

What post has you addressing the 2 raptures of the 144k and Rev 14:14.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I wonder why? That is what the text teaches. There are no survivors. There is no tribulation period. That is why you cannot show it. That is why you refuse to tell us how long your trib is. You have nothing in the text to support your thesis. Quite the opposite. It forbids your thesis.

We all agree there will be a catching away (rapture). But it is not a Pretrib event. You have nothing to support that!

II Thessalonians 1:7-10 says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire (1) taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When (2) he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

There are no wicked left to enter into the alleged Premillennialism future millennium!!!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of tHis coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for your future goat-infested millennium.

The rapture of rev14:14 has nothing of your description, and can not possibly be the second coming on white horses.
SMH.
whew...invincible ignorance.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What does any of this have to do with what I said in the post you quoted (#1,225)? Do you agree with how rebuilder 454 interprets Matthew 25:1-13? Do you agree with him that the foolish virgins are saved Christians, but somehow not part of the bride of Christ? And that Jesus turns them away to face an Antichrist and tribulation rather than have them cast into "outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth" like those described in Matthew 7:21-23 who try to plead with Him by saying "Lord, Lord..."?

My point was to show how his interpretation of that passage is false. Do you have any thoughts on that or would you rather try to change the topic that was being discussed?

Then you are describing the foolish as heathen?
Heathens are pure,set apart,undefiled,containing the Holy Spirit,watching,and waiting for Jesus??
Heathens sleeping with born again saints.?
Heathens asking believers to transfer the Holy Spirit to them?
No. Rebuilder took you to school.
Your doctrine, now in damage control , left it out, totally left it out. So now we see why I am here

To force you into the word. Or go against it.
You chose the latter.
Hmmmmm
Interesting.

 

[Randy Kluth]

1) it says "revealed" ...that is the only condition. You added another.
" revealed" ????

You are breaking up the context, Paul said what will be revealed is the Man of Sin destined for destruction.

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

I did not add that--Paul wrote that. And it is just common sense, and does not have to be explained as if we're dull, that the "man doomed to destruction" is a reference back to Dan 7, where it is explained that the Son of Man comes from heaven to defeat the Man of Sin and to establish God's Kingdom.

2 Thes 2.5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

Why did Paul say this? It is because it was an already-understood teaching from Dan 7. Some things have to be spelled out, and some things should've have to be. Paul did not want to spell out things that would offend the Romans. Dan 7 taught that the 4th Kingdom, the Roman Kingdom, was to be destroyed by the Christ of Christianity.

But to make the point absolutely crystal clear Paul adds this--not me:

2 Thes 2.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Brother, this is explicit teaching that obviously originates from Dan 7. If you cannot connect the revelation *and* the destruction of Antichrist with Christ's 2nd Coming in this text you are dull. And I don't mean to insult your IQ. You are "dull" because you have a preconceived agenda fostered upon you by those who themselves had an agenda, writing books and seeking glory for their own concoctions. Everybody's trying to create a name for themselves by inventing their own story, which they claim is "inspired." Private revelation is a fraud.

He is revealed, pretrib, then the rapture happens a few days later. Ahem...which is still pretrib.
2) in the pretrib rapture, you know the verses you just omitted, Jesus does not return to earth. That return is after the gt. You know, how you just omitted " before the flood 50-50 taken/left behind. Then omitted Rev 19, return WITH THE SAINTS.
3) YES. We both agree, as most everyone does, that Jesus returns postrib with your omitted saints vividly depicted as already in heaven during the tribulation.

Your position is weak friend as you just demonstrated it hinges on omission of the pretrib rapture verses.

Again, this is an argument from silence, which is illegitimate. A Pretrib Rapture is not mentioned because there is no such thing. Why then would it be mentioned?

Again, Paul is teaching not just the "revelation" of Antichrist, but also his destination to be "destroyed at the coming of Christ." You cannot get around this explicit teaching without *adding* a Pretrib Rapture that does not exist in Scripture.

We are explicitly taught in Scripture here that Christ cannot come for his Church unless he comes to *destroy the Man of Sin.* That is what is being taught.

You have to add a Pretrib Rapture to make it say anything else. And that would be changing the whole sense of what Paul is explicitly teaching.

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Paul is making 2 points here.
1) If the Antichrist has not yet arrived in his 10 nation, 7 leader empire, then obviously Christ has not yet arrived from heaven to gather his Church.
2) When Christ does come for his Church it will be, as we've been taught from Dan 7, a coming *after* Antichrist is revealed and rules for 3.5 years. It will take place specifically to destroy the Man of Sin.

How do we know that Paul was referencing Dan 7? It is because the teaching of Antichrist comes only from Dan 7. That's why he could be so sure that they had already been given something definite that could be checked out and understood.

Common sense tells us that he had taught them this, but this is something that does *not* have to be so explicit--it is not part of the teaching he was now giving them, that Christ can only come at Antichrist's destruction *after* his initial revelation.