The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture
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MA2444
Well-Known Member
I wondered what kind of a Bible you have been reading! I've never read that translation before. I use KJV, NKJV and NLT translations. That book of Imagination that you said you read...I dunno, it might be time for a trip to the bookstore?
I posted a lot of scriptures for you in this thread. How many of them have you actually looked up? I'm guessing none. I'd be scared to keep denying the word of God if I were you.
All you have to do is to consciously read the NLT from your spirit, and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you. And He will! That's His Job!
The opposite is the truth. You and your buddies are like triplets. You act identical. All you can do is avoid and insult.
I was willing to look at your rapture verses 1 by 1 but you have brought nothing to the table. That speaks volumes. That says it all.
The offer still stands.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The Light
Well-Known Member
If you call insult, the FACT that you were caught changing God's Word and called out on it, then yes.
You seem to be ignorant of the fear you should have for doing such things. Intentionally leading others astray. But you are not the only one. This is a common theme I have seen from those that think they have replaced Israel.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. I am accepting the definition of the Greek words, as can be seen in John 17:15, and I am interpreting Revelation 3:10 accordingly. You, on the other hand, want to invent new definitions for words. You have to. Your doctrine can't be supported any other way.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Do you think lying does anything to help your case? He, and people like me who agree with him, do not believe anyone has replaced Israel as you falsely claim. Instead, we believe that Gentile believers have been joined with Israelite believers as one body of Christ. Who is being replaced there? No one. Instead, believers are being joined together as one "household of God" as "fellowcitizens" and "fellowheirs" who are "of the same body" (Ephesians 2:11-3:6).
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I'm going to accept the definition of Wrath in 1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,.../KJV
We're not appointed to wrath. When the bowls or vials get poured out upon the earth it is a Judgment for Unbelieving Israel, not the Bride of Christ.
G3709 - orgē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
G3709 - ὀργή orgḗ, or-gay'; from ; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:—anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.
www.blueletterbible.org
The KJV translates Strong's G3709 in the following manner: wrath (31x), anger (3x), vengeance (1x), indignation (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
- movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
- anger, wrath, indignation
- anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
- of punishments inflicted by magistrates.../BLB
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Me too! Glad we agree on that.
What wrath is 1 Thessalonians 5:9 referring to?
This wrath that Paul referenced shortly before that, right?
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
When does this wrath occur? Over a period of years? No. It happens on the day of the Lord that comes as a thief in the night. The day Jesus returns. Here is a specific description of the wrath that will occur on the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night:
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Of course, we are not appointed to any of God's wrath of any kind, but what Paul was alluding to specifically was the wrath that will come down on the day of the Lord. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air just before this wrath comes down upon the earth because we are not appointed to it.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 says: “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”I'm going to accept the definition of Wrath in 1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,.../KJV
We're not appointed to wrath. When the bowls or vials get poured out upon the earth it is a Judgment for Unbelieving Israel, not the Bride of Christ.
G3709 - orgē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
G3709 - ὀργή orgḗ, or-gay'; from ; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:—anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.
The KJV translates Strong's G3709 in the following manner: wrath (31x), anger (3x), vengeance (1x), indignation (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
- movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
- anger, wrath, indignation
- anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
- of punishments inflicted by magistrates.../BLB
Where in the Bible does it say that a seven-year tribulation is the wrath of God? You are just making this up as you go.
Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly and unprepared in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that we are told none escape ("they shall not escape"). This couldn't be clearer. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of survivors or a subsequent 7yrs trib.
Paul, speaking expressly to God's people about this wholesale destruction, comforts them: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." What day? Plainly, and contextually, he is speaking about "the day of the Lord." He is describing "the coming of the Lord." Why does that day not "overtake" them "as a thief"? Because they are prepared. They are ready, watching and waiting for their Lord's return. After describing the awful terror of "the day of the Lord," he solemnly admonishes the “brethren” in Thessalonica in a distinctly inclusive way “let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.” And continues, “let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love.” Paul does not dissociate the Church from this day, rather the opposite, but warns it against being sleepy when it arrives. The whole Church (“wake or sleep” or alive/dead in Christ) is at this stage rescued from the “sudden destruction” for the expressed reason that “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” Those that belong to Christ are immediately and in total rescued before this final and “sudden” annihilation.
The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is notably described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).
Furthermore, the word rendered “sudden” in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is the Greek word aifnídios meaning unawares, and the accompanying word olethros used here means ruin, death and/or destruction. Therefore, we can deduce from this reading that the Lord’s Coming sees the ‘unexpected ruin or destruction’ of all those left behind at the catching away.
The Greek word aifnídios is only found in one other passage in Scripture – Luke 21:33-36. Here it is also identified with the unexpected nature of the second coming, where Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.
Prevailing or persevering ensures an escape from the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” The prevailing is the experience of every saint that perseveres to the end and triumphs in Christ. They will be rescued before the total destruction.
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According to your teachers. But they are wrong. You need to start thinking for yourself.
Not so. There are various meanings for the original words. Just because I choose a meaning that disagrees with you does not make it wrong. It didn't even have a bearing on the thrust of the text. The text FORBID Pretrib. You missed that!!!
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I remember several pages back you supplied a long list of scripture intended to support your theories. I read them. They didn't say what you are desperately wanting them to say. Every single one of them was a reference to the second coming. Nothing about a secret pretrib rapture.
Ironically, that is precisely what many evangelical and dispensational believers actually do believe.
KJV Psalms 91:1-11
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
God calls upon His end time church to be witnesses to His justice and righteousness. We will be witnesses to the extremes of evil that Satan will inflict upon God's innocent people, and by doing so we'll be witnesses in the final judgement and testify
KJV Revelation 16:7
"Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments."
The abomination of desolation was indeed set up on holy ground in Israel in 70ad. They were the idolatrous banners of pagan Rome exalting their pagan gods prior to the destruction of the temple. Tribulation for Christians did begin shortly thereafter. Over 1500 years of intense persecution first from Ishan Rome, them from papal Rome until a short time before the 18th century. Millions persecuted. Their homes destroyed, their lands stolen, the families murdered before their eyes, their women and children butchered and raped, they themselves tortured and burnt. If you don't think that was tribulation then I suggest you read some history.
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MA2444
Well-Known Member
The Great Trib.
Let's look at more of 1 Thessalonians 5, shall we?
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 Now concerning how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters,[a] we don’t really need to write you.
2 For you know quite well that the day of the Lord’s return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night.
3 When people are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.
4 But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief.[b]
5 For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don’t belong to darkness and night.
6 So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded.
7 Night is the time when people sleep and drinkers get drunk.
8 But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation.
9 For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us. 10 Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever.
11 So encourage each other and build each other up, just as you are already doing.../NLT
v3 He comes as a thief in the night, by surprise (no one knows the day or hour)
v4&5 we are children of Light, the church. Thr Bride.
v6 So we are on guard and watching!Not asleep like posttribbers.
v7&8 This is the night time at least coming on, look around you at the world!
v9 So God chose to Save us and take us out of it (like He talks about in 1 Thess 4
v10 Christ paid a High Price for us, that we may live. He loves us so saves from the wrath that He brings upon Israel & the world.
v11 This is Encouraging! It's Perfectly Ok To Watch For The LORD Early.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[g]
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died[h] will rise from their graves.
17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.../NLT
V14 When Jesus comes for us in the (pretrib) rapture, He will bring with Him, all those who have died in Christ since the beginning. David, Moses, Paul, all of them.
V15-16-17 People have died in Christ since then and when jesus shows up, their graves will be opened and they will transformed in the twinkling of an eye to reunite with their spirit into a new spiritual body. A resurrection body like He had when He was Resurrected on the first Easter morning. We dont meet the Lord in the air before them, we all go at once.
Caught up in the clouds. is the translation for Harpazo in Greek or Rapture in the Latin Vulgate in V17.
G726 - harpazō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
G726 - ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of ; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
www.blueletterbible.org
You see, it is two events. One time He comes in the air and we meet Him in the clouds. He doesn't come to Earth.
Then after The Great Trib is His so called 2nd Coming where He brings us with Him and puts comes to the Earth at the Mt of Olives. and puts an end to wickedness and wicked people. (Then the Millenium begins)
It's not that hard to put it all together clearly like that after 20 years of studying it, lol!
MA2444
Well-Known Member
So I've been watching for quite awhile now and He hasnt came yet, But! It gives us lots of time to talk...
MA2444
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
View attachment 46962
Hard to see it , but blow it up to view postribbers sitting in rubble high fiveing each other
Hard to see it , but blow it up to view postribbers sitting in rubble high fiveing each other
What a slap in the face to Jesus who spoke often in parables
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Partly correct
Those left behind after the pre-tribulation Rapture are killed right away by the AC.
It says very clearly that every man woman child whether free or Bond takes the mark. So your Mortals, that you want to go through the tribulation, Are postribbers who are not watching and waiting for Jesus at all
....and then you got the heathens that take the mark .
so I don't know how your faith is .
maybe you'll take the mark, maybe you wont..
time will tell.
.... but I'm guessing, most likely you're a strong believer ,and you'll be martyred right away cuz you are not going to take the mark.
that would be suicide
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I don't believe you. So...you speak...untruths? I think so. You refuse to ever respond to the text and derail off into name calling or pagerism or whatever.
Besides, we've posted a Lot of scriptures that you've ignored already! So you only seek ammo to continue your assault on truth, and you my friend have been exposed for what you are.
We already have given enough proof that the topic of pretrib is completely settled. The only reason I'm still talking to you and in this thread is for the amusement of it at this point.
And besides, You *might* still catch on? Because sometimes we can hear something a 1000 different ways and it dont make sense, but then someone says something in just the right way that it opens your understanding for you. It's happened to me before.
What you don't know, you don't know.
What you wont learn, you can't know.
and what you dont know, you eventually pay for it.
You should make an effort to not have the hateful energy in your posts anyway. It doesnt look good on you as a garment...
MA2444
Well-Known Member
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