The Coming Rapture
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, you don't think you have to explain how the elect will be gathered from up in the earth's atmosphere rather than from the surface of the earth? You can just make a ridiculous claim like that without any explanation for what it means? Are you afraid to show that that means?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It says the dead in Christ will be resurrected and changed. What exactly will be resurrected and changed if not their old bodies? No, Paul does NOT clearly indicate that there is a new body right now in heaven. That's nonsense. No one is going to heaven when Jesus returns. We're meeting Him in the air.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I agree that it's the rapture, but the rapture happens at the second coming. They are not two different events.
We all agree that the following passage is about the rapture. It specifically mentions it as being related directly to the second coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Who said anything about saving ourselves???
Those living in sin after having once been saved have willingly and knowingly turned away from the Lord and have become corrupt.
Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
So called "once saved always saved" is false doctrine not supported by God's Word
The resurrection and rapture occur at the second coming of Christ.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Context.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now we can see what is actually said.
We meet them in the air.
Nothing in there is the second coming to earth on white horses.
Take a look at Rev 19.
That is the second coming.
Then look at all the rapture verses.
Then look at all the verses where the AC kills all refusing the mark.
Then look at the bride and bridegroom dynamic...which is the rapture.
Postrib rapture was poorly thought out.
We need to adhere to the bible.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
1 these 4 is the gathering of the bride. All of it, both those in graves and alive ones.
Rev 19 is the second coming.
Two totally different dynamics.
It is impossible to make it fit, the 2 settings alone are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
Plus the AC kills all refusing the mark.
The church age ends with the mass martyrdom of Christians.
The trib is Jacob's trouble.
The bride is gathered first ,pretrib .as Jesus declared.
Then God turns to the Jews ( the wife gone awhoring).
Only pretrib harmonizes with heavens purpose.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Your arguments from silence are not valid. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is not symbolic like Revelation 19:11-21 is, so there's no reason to think it would mention white horses there. And, Revelation 19:11-21 says nothing about Christ coming to earth.
Do you think that there are any other passages in scripture which speak of the same event as Revelation 19:11-21? Apparently not, since no other passages speak of "the second coming to earth on white horses".
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
It is the exact words you aimed at me.
(Push back.)
You just called your own deal useless.
Rev 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Hard to wiggle out of the second coming on white horses
No mention of white horses in 1 thes 4 because the rapture is not the second coming.
Thanks for illustrating that.
...a shame that you change Rev 19.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
All pretribs believe the resurrection and the rapture occur at Christ's coming.
So simple
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That's not true because you have the rapture occurring and Him coming before the tribulation when scripture clearly teaches that He comes AFTER "the tribulation of those days" ends (Matthew 24:29-31).
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
How am I changing Revelation 19 exactly? All you do is make claims without backing them up. Tell me why anyone should take you seriously when you never provide coherent explanations to back up your claims?
No one is doing that, but what you are doing ~ and you're certainly not alone in doing so ~ is saying that the events of Revelation 19:11-21 are prior to the events of Revelation 20:1-6, which is not the case.
The events of Revelation 19:11-21 are the same events ~ described in a little different way but with the same outcome ~ as the events of Revelation 20:7-9. Note the similarity of the images and language in both passages...
What is described in Revelation 20:1-6 ~ really verses 4-6, over the course of the millennium, which is now, since Pentecost, "these last days" as the writer of Hebrews calls it in Hebrews 1:2... Revelation:20:1-3 describe the coming of Christ 2000-plus years ago and the binding of Satan, which Jesus said was a reality in Matthew 12:29. The millennium of Revelation 20 will be until the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in and the partial hardening now on Israel is removed; in this way all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26), and this will prompt the close of the millennium and...
Satan will be "loosed" for a short time. As for a "rapture," there is no rapture, but the coming of Christ ~ Jesus is the fire coming down from heaven and consuming the devil and his minions. This is final defeat of Satan, only implied in Revelation 19, and will certainly be a rapturous event... Jesus will come back and forcefully take... although real force, as in some sort of military might or other violence, will not be necessary... what is His, for good. Then will come the Judgment, portrayed in Revelation 20:11-15, unbelievers will depart, following Satan and his minions into eternal judgment, and then Heaven and Earth will be made one... the New Heavens and New Earth.
Grace and peace to you.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
1 Rapture of half the church pretrib as Jesus declared
2 Those left behind are martyred as Revelation declares
(Times of the Gentiles fulfilled/ church age over)
3 The 144 k Jews are taken to heaven as firstfruits
4 The midtrib Jewish rapture of Rev 14:14
5 The second coming to earth is last .(Rev 19)
All declared in the bible.
I just report what is in there.
Some are not friendly to it.
But without the component of the 2 covenants and the 2 brides, end times is just a hope that they DO GO THROUGH the gt. They just can't stand the thought of Jesus coming for his bride, or the Revelation of romans 9,10 and 11.
( the covenant wife /bride)
Flat out bizarre.
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