The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[Rightglory]

The Truth needs repeating, you keep resisting it. It cant be denied, Christs death causes and effects Salvation. Now if one doesnt become a believer and live by faith, they were not someone Christ died for.

more gibberish. nothing close to an explanation of your view. I'm not the one resisting Truth. Explain just how this works theologically.
You have yet to address the texts cited, I wonder why? You have not explained how believers can sin when God controls man's will.
Explain the Incarnation within the view you espouse?
You have never explained why Christ was raised from the dead? A blood sacrifice does not require a resurrection?
What you keep emphasizing is only a blood sacrifice, not explaining how that can be limited?
Because you have not done this is probably why you really don't understand scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

more gibberish. nothing close to an explanation of your view. I'm not the one resisting Truth. Explain just how this works theologically.
You have yet to address the texts cited, I wonder why? You have not explained how believers can sin when God controls man's will.
Explain the Incarnation within the view you espouse?
You have never explained why Christ was raised from the dead? A blood sacrifice does not require a resurrection?
What you keep emphasizing is only a blood sacrifice, not explaining how that can be limited?
Because you have not done this is probably why you really don't understand scripture.

On this thread its devoted to show how and why Christs death accomplished Salvation for them Christ died for, His death causes all of their Salvation, legal, Spiritual, and Eternal Glory ! And you deny it, thats being an adversary to the Truth friend.

 

[Rightglory]

On this thread its devoted to show how and why Christs death accomplished Salvation for them Christ died for, His death causes all of their Salvation, legal, Spiritual, and Eternal Glory ! And you deny it, thats being an adversary to the Truth friend.

So you say, but you have failed to explain your view within the scriptural framework. You failed to respond once again to the texts I asked you to study and respond. You don't understand your own view enough to explain it, such as how it fits in with the scriptural understanding of the incarnation.
What I deny is the theory you are trying to espouse which you can only give these innocuous statements like the above. Show the theological underpinnings of your view. Citing scripture and giving your personal opinion does nothing. It aligns with nothing regarding historical understanding of scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

So you say, but you have failed to explain your view within the scriptural framework. You failed to respond once again to the texts I asked you to study and respond. You don't understand your own view enough to explain it, such as how it fits in with the scriptural understanding of the incarnation.
What I deny is the theory you are trying to espouse which you can only give these innocuous statements like the above. Show the theological underpinnings of your view. Citing scripture and giving your personal opinion does nothing. It aligns with nothing regarding historical understanding of scripture.

I have explained my view. I just havent used your criteria as the foundation of my explaining my view, that you cant dictate to me. However you are being an adversary to the truth that Christs death accomplished and effects Salvation for all whom He died, Gods Elect

 

[Rightglory]

I have explained my view. I just havent used your criteria as the foundation of my explaining my view, that you cant dictate to me. However you are being an adversary to the truth that Christs death accomplished and effects Salvation for all whom He died, Gods Elect

If you insist not explaining the texts or answering the questions, I must assume you cannot do so.
I don't use my criteria. I use scriptural criteria and years of studying biblical theology that has stood the test of time and has been held by Christians for 2000 years. When man begins to insert personal opinions, they usually end up being false, history shows that.

 

[brightfame52]

If you insist not explaining the texts or answering the questions, I must assume you cannot do so.
I don't use my criteria. I use scriptural criteria and years of studying biblical theology that has stood the test of time and has been held by Christians for 2000 years. When man begins to insert personal opinions, they usually end up being false, history shows that.

I dont have to explain your text. I explain using my own text..

 

[Rightglory]

I dont have to explain your text. I explain using my own text..

So, your bible has only a couple of texts that you use and they don't need to be consistent with the rest of scripture?
You impose your personal interpretation on a couple of them and discard the rest? Especially if they don't fit your interpretation, or more likely you actually don't understand them.
For if you understood them you might be able to have a rational discussion regarding them. All I've gotten is your standard mantra which is not consistent with scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

So, your bible has only a couple of texts that you use and they don't need to be consistent with the rest of scripture?
You impose your personal interpretation on a couple of them and discard the rest? Especially if they don't fit your interpretation, or more likely you actually don't understand them.
For if you understood them you might be able to have a rational discussion regarding them. All I've gotten is your standard mantra which is not consistent with scripture.

I've used more than a couple of text, have you read from the OP all my posts explaining this sacred truth. Your problem is you dont receive the Truth of the saving death of Christ.

 

[Rightglory]

I've used more than a couple of text, have you read from the OP all my posts explaining this sacred truth. Your problem is you dont receive the Truth of the saving death of Christ.

A lot of men have claimed they teach gospel truth. If you counted them up, there would be hundreds of them. There were several already in Paul's day and he addresses their error. That you claim your personal interpretation is gospel truth assuredly makes it very questionable. Especially since it (NT) has existed for 2000 years.
Now, let's try again. Explain your view within the understanding of the incarnation. You claimed earlier that you believed in the Incarnation.

 

[brightfame52]

Made Righteous by His Faithfulness/Obedience !

All those that the Jesus Christ I know and serve, all for whom He died, in His obedience, and because He represented them [those He died for] by that obedience of His, which is also His Faithfulness to that Eternal Covenant which He became the Surety unto Death, by this He made them all Righteous. Yes, all of them have His obedience or faithfulness or faith imputed to them ! All those Christ died for stand before God, even when they themselves are but faithless, unbelieving, enemies, they stand before God with the Faith and obedience of Christ imputed to them ! Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 11

 

[brightfame52]

A lot of men have claimed they teach gospel truth. If you counted them up, there would be hundreds of them. There were several already in Paul's day and he addresses their error. That you claim your personal interpretation is gospel truth assuredly makes it very questionable. Especially since it (NT) has existed for 2000 years.
Now, let's try again. Explain your view within the understanding of the incarnation. You claimed earlier that you believed in the Incarnation.

I have explained my view the way Im led to explain it, not what you want me to explain. Explain your own view if you want it explained., My labor here isnt for you ! Just know, up to this point you have been an adversary to the Truth

 

[Rightglory]

Made Righteous by His Faithfulness/Obedience !

All those that the Jesus Christ I know and serve, all for whom He died, in His obedience, and because He represented them [those He died for] by that obedience of His, which is also His Faithfulness to that Eternal Covenant which He became the Surety unto Death, by this He made them all Righteous. Yes, all of them have His obedience or faithfulness or faith imputed to them ! All those Christ died for stand before God, even when they themselves are but faithless, unbelieving, enemies, they stand before God with the Faith and obedience of Christ imputed to them ! Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 11

My guess is that you selected this verse hopefully showing that Christ died ONLY for some. You probably use the second clause of the 19th verse to support your view, that it does not say ALL but many.
I hate to burst your bubble. You slipped past versed 18 where the word all is used to show Christ died for all and gave them life,
Verse 19 is nothing more than a restatement of verse 18. Let me show you the error of your understanding here. If the "many" of the second clause means ONLY believers, then the first clause also means the many references ONLY believers who were made sinners. The rest of humanity were never sinners and did not need redemption, they were never condemned through Adam. Is that what you believe?

Also, nowhere does it say that faith was imputed to anyone. What was imputed was life. This life is physical life, It is referencing the resurrection of all men in the last day. It is when all men will be raised incorruptible and immortal. I Cor 15:53. It tells of Christ's victory over death and Satan, Heb 2:14-16.
I might as well show you the universality of Christ's redemptive work with both Rom 5:12 in the same chapter and I Cor 15:20-22. There is no limitation on Christ's redemptive work. after all He was given ALL THINGS TO REDEEM, Col 1:20. He tasted death for all men I John 2:2

 

[Rightglory]

I have explained my view the way Im led to explain it, not what you want me to explain. Explain your own view if you want it explained., My labor here isnt for you ! Just know, up to this point you have been an adversary to the Truth

No, adversary of your theory. The Truth, you have not touched. it is alien to scripture on many levels,

 

[brightfame52]

My guess is that you selected this verse hopefully showing that Christ died ONLY for some. You probably use the second clause of the 19th verse to support your view, that it does not say ALL but many.
I hate to burst your bubble. You slipped past versed 18 where the word all is used to show Christ died for all and gave them life,
Verse 19 is nothing more than a restatement of verse 18. Let me show you the error of your understanding here. If the "many" of the second clause means ONLY believers, then the first clause also means the many references ONLY believers who were made sinners. The rest of humanity were never sinners and did not need redemption, they were never condemned through Adam. Is that what you believe?

Also, nowhere does it say that faith was imputed to anyone. What was imputed was life. This life is physical life, It is referencing the resurrection of all men in the last day. It is when all men will be raised incorruptible and immortal. I Cor 15:53. It tells of Christ's victory over death and Satan, Heb 2:14-16.
I might as well show you the universality of Christ's redemptive work with both Rom 5:12 in the same chapter and I Cor 15:20-22. There is no limitation on Christ's redemptive work. after all He was given ALL THINGS TO REDEEM, Col 1:20. He tasted death for all men I John 2:2

The all in Rom 5:18 are the same many in Rom 5:19, so the ones Christ died for, which consisteth of His obedience unto death, are Justified unto life and will be made experientially righteous by the new birth.

 

[brightfame52]

No, adversary of your theory. The Truth, you have not touched. it is alien to scripture on many levels,

Oh no, you being an adversary to truth which you pawn off as just my theory.

 

[Rightglory]

The all in Rom 5:18 are the same many in Rom 5:19, so the ones Christ died for, which consisteth of His obedience unto death, are Justified unto life and will be made experientially righteous by the new birth.

I agree with the first part, the all men does refer to the many, it is just another way of saying it. But the life that was given is NOT ones spiritual life or what you call new birth. If that were actually correct, then all men (many) all would become believers by your second clause.
Our new life in Christ is by faith, and that faith does experientially make a person righteous. Meaning right with God.
Christ did not create believers from the Cross. He made it possible for God to have union with man which is by and through our faith.
It is impossible for Christ to limit His work on the Cross by virtue of His Human nature.

To be limited, as you describe it, He would have needed to create two separate human natures, One human nature would apparently be perfect and was never condemned to death. The other is a human nature that was condemned to death through Adam and needed redemption. Have you observed any different human beings on this earth that are not subject to death and are living perfect lives?

 

[brightfame52]

I agree with the first part, the all men does refer to the many, it is just another way of saying it. But the life that was given is NOT ones spiritual life or what you call new birth. If that were actually correct, then all men (many) all would become believers by your second clause.
Our new life in Christ is by faith, and that faith does experientially make a person righteous. Meaning right with God.
Christ did not create believers from the Cross. He made it possible for God to have union with man which is by and through our faith.
It is impossible for Christ to limit His work on the Cross by virtue of His Human nature.

To be limited, as you describe it, He would have needed to create two separate human natures, One human nature would apparently be perfect and was never condemned to death. The other is a human nature that was condemned to death through Adam and needed redemption. Have you observed any different human beings on this earth that are not subject to death and are living perfect lives?

Oh Yes Believers in Christ are the byproduct of His death, the fruit of His death Jn 12:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

And John 12:32-33

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die

 

[Rightglory]

Oh Yes Believers in Christ are the byproduct of His death, the fruit of His death Jn 12:24

Yes they are, however, You are not following the logic of your view. If you state that Rom 5:18-19 means that the ALL MEN, MANY means believers, then all men, many have been made believers. There can be no unbelievers.
I clearly recall your statement that many will go to hell for their unbelief, How is that possible? I pointed this out to you in my last post which you conveniently overlooked.

And John 12:32-33

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die

Here we have the ALL MEN again. It is NOT referencing believers, though they are part of the ALL MEN. It is referencing mankind who will receive the benefits of Christ's atonement, Life/resurrection and forgiveness of sin. Unless all men are given life/resurrection from the dead, I Cor 15:12-22 there can be no forgiveness of sin. See how a believers faith is in vain, unless Christ is risen and the dead. vs 16-19
Christ did not make, create, any believers directly from His work on the Cross. His work makes it possible for God to have union with man, freely, in love as He desired from the beginning.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes they are, however, You are not following the logic of your view. If you state that Rom 5:18-19 means that the ALL MEN, MANY means believers, then all men, many have been made believers. There can be no unbelievers.
I clearly recall your statement that many will go to hell for their unbelief, How is that possible? I pointed this out to you in my last post which you conveniently overlooked.

Here we have the ALL MEN again. It is NOT referencing believers, though they are part of the ALL MEN. It is referencing mankind who will receive the benefits of Christ's atonement, Life/resurrection and forgiveness of sin. Unless all men are given life/resurrection from the dead, I Cor 15:12-22 there can be no forgiveness of sin. See how a believers faith is in vain, unless Christ is risen and the dead. vs 16-19
Christ did not make, create, any believers directly from His work on the Cross. His work makes it possible for God to have union with man, freely, in love as He desired from the beginning.

So those verses affirm that Christs death produces life, conversion. All Men is restricted to the converted since Christs death produces conversion, the people who are never converted, Christ didnt die for them.

 

[Rightglory]

So those verses affirm that Christs death produces life, conversion.

Produces physical life. It refers to the resurrection that will occur in the last day, I Cor 15:53. If you want the word "conversion" Ok, if it means from physical death to physical life What you need it to say is eternal life which is does not. It has no reference to believers whatsoever.

All Men is restricted to the converted since Christs death produces conversion, the people who are never converted, Christ didnt die for them.

But it does not say that. It specifically refers to all men, meaning all mankind, actually including the world itself.
The way you are using the word "conversion" is what happens when a person believes. A believer seeks to be baptised and that baptism is a conversion of spiritual death to spiritual life, or what Paul calls "being in Christ. Christ did not do this on or from the Cross. He does this in present time with each individual believer.
Your view logically must follow that if ONLY those that believe did Christ die for, then we have most of humanity that did not eve need Christ because they were already godly, not sinners. Rom 5:6-8. In your view, only believers were ungodly and sinners, not the rest of humanity. That changes the meaning of Rom 5:12 as well. Sin entered ONLY believers rather than WORLD, and death only to believers, rather than all men.
Where are all these godly, non sinners who have never died?