The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[rwb]

It doesn't say that anywhere. You just have your knickers in a wad not wanting to accept the biblical purpose of water baptism. You and Zwingli.

How can you say this since I believe you know for man to have salvation unto eternal life, they MUST be born again? Have you not said of Jo 3 that John does not mean physical water when he writes you must be born of water and Spirit to know and enter the Kingdom of God?

 

[JBO]

It doesnt deny that anywhere.

That is your measure of truth? Absolutely nonsense.

 

[JBO]

How can you say this since I believe you know for man to have salvation unto eternal life, they MUST be born again? Have you not said of Jo 3 that John does not mean physical water when he writes you must be born of water and Spirit to know and enter the Kingdom of God?

Now I have not said that. I firmly believe that when Jesus said born of water and Spirit, He meant actual physical water. It is the water of baptism.

 

[rwb]

Now I have not said that. I firmly believe that when Jesus said born of water and Spirit, He meant actual physical water. It is the water of baptism.

Perhaps not in this thread but in another thread "Seeing salvation again" you said: "The idea that born of water is a reference to physical birth is simply ludicrous." Isn't being born of physical water pointing to physical and not spiritual re-birth?

 

[JBO]

Perhaps not in this thread but in another thread "Seeing salvation again" you said: "The idea that born of water is a reference to physical birth is simply ludicrous." Isn't being born of physical water pointing to physical and not spiritual re-birth?

Do you know what ludicrous means? And no, born of physical water is not pointing to physical in any sense whatever. Born of water and Spirit is all about spiritual rebirth. Jesus was speaking only about spiritual rebirth. There is no such thing as being reborn physically.

 

[rwb]

Do you know what ludicrous means? And no, born of physical water is not pointing to physical in any sense whatever. Born of water and Spirit is all about spiritual rebirth. Jesus was speaking only about spiritual rebirth. There is no such thing as being reborn physically.

Which is exactly why only spiritual new birth gives salvation unto eternal life and not water that comes with natural birth.

 

[JBO]

Which is exactly why only spiritual new birth gives salvation unto eternal life and not water that comes with natural birth.

Then why would you think Jesus even mentioned water?

Obviously Jesus is not talking about natural birth and the water He is talking about in John 3 has absolutely nothing to do with natural birth. Do you really think Jesus would make natural birth a condition for being born again; a condition that even most evil person in the whole world would meet? Don't you think He was a whole lot smarter than that?

 

[brightfame52]

Redeems those He died for from the Prison of Unbelief !


Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

To be redeemed from all iniquity does include being redeemed from unbelief, the prison of unbelief. It should be remembered that to be in unbelief/disobedience is a matter of being imprisoned, for it is written in Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

To be concluded in unbelief is to be imprisoned to it. The greek word concluded is sygkleiō and means:


I.to shut up together, enclose

A.of a shoal of fishes in a net



II.to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

Man by nature is Locked up in Unbelief / disobedience !

Rom 11:32

32 For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience, so that he might show mercy to them all.GNT

32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.HCSB

This is important to know, and this is why its impossible for any sinner by nature to believe and or obey, to say they can, is to say they overcame in their flesh being imprisoned to unbelief, which means they redeemed themselves out of the prison of unbelief and not Christ, which is Idolatry and antichrist !

 

[JBO]

Redeems those He died for from the Prison of Unbelief !


Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

To be redeemed from all iniquity does include being redeemed from unbelief, the prison of unbelief. It should be remembered that to be in unbelief/disobedience is a matter of being imprisoned, for it is written in Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

To be concluded in unbelief is to be imprisoned to it. The greek word concluded is sygkleiō and means:


I.to shut up together, enclose

A.of a shoal of fishes in a net



II.to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

Man by nature is Locked up in Unbelief / disobedience !

Rom 11:32

32 For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience, so that he might show mercy to them all.GNT

32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.HCSB

This is important to know, and this is why its impossible for any sinner by nature to believe and or obey, to say they can, is to say they overcame in their flesh being imprisoned to unbelief, which means they redeemed themselves out of the prison of unbelief and not Christ, which is Idolatry and antichrist !

You are reading into that passage much more than it actually says. Prisoners of disobedience is speaking about one's relationship to God relative to the law. We know that if one were to disobey even one law once, he becomes that prisoner of disobedience; that is, he becomes a sinner (James 2:10). That says nothing about whether or not he can believe the Gospel message.

A similar statement is found in Galatians 3 where it says that the law was our guardian (ESV) or tutor (NASB) or schoolmaster (KJV) to lead us to Christ.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

That certainly doesn't sound like it was impossible for the sinner under the law to believe in Christ Jesus. That was the purpose of the law according verse 24.

 

[rwb]

Then why would you think Jesus even mentioned water?

Obviously Jesus is not talking about natural birth and the water He is talking about in John 3 has absolutely nothing to do with natural birth. Do you really think Jesus would make natural birth a condition for being born again; a condition that even most evil person in the whole world would meet? Don't you think He was a whole lot smarter than that?

Exactly! In Jo 3 Christ says that mankind cannot know or enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born again. Then He explains how man is born again, and it is not through natural physical birth, but by water and Spirit. If it's not by being physically born again, then water as you agree has no part in man's entrance into the Kingdom of God which is by His Spirit and water that is not natural but supernatural because the water that baptizes us in His Holy Spirit is His Word (the Gospel). Christ is saying to be born again we must first hear the Gospel (water) through the power of His Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God and have everlasting life.

That's exactly what takes place in Acts when the Gospel (water) was heard there was conviction of heart, which proves the Holy Spirit was within to convict them of sin, believing, they repented and then they were baptized in physical water to show they were no longer of this world, because they were born again of water (Gospel) and the Spirit.

John 4:14 (KJV) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Revelation 21:6 (KJV) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Ephesians 5:26 (KJV) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

 

[JBO]

Ephesians 5:26 (KJV) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

I firmly believe that the washing of water by the word is speaking of water baptism. The word "washing" is from the Greek word λουτρόν [loutron]. That is the same word that Paul used to describe his own baptism as washing away sins. It is also the same word used by Paul in Titus 3:5 with the "washing of regeneration".

I would also point out that the word in Ephesians 5:26 is from the Greek word ῥῆμα [rhēma] which means utterance, or the spoken word as opposed to "the Word", i.e., Logos.

 

[JBO]

If it's not by being physically born again, then water as you agree has no part in man's entrance into the Kingdom of God which is by His Spirit and water that is not natural but supernatural because the water that baptizes us in His Holy Spirit is His Word (the Gospel).

That is not correct. I do not agree with that. I think that water baptism has everything to do with man's entrance into the Kingdom of God. Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is the specific instant in time in the life of the repentant believer when God forgives his sins and gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is regeneration. That is being born again.

 

[rwb]

I firmly believe that the washing of water by the word is speaking of water baptism. The word "washing" is from the Greek word λουτρόν [loutron]. That is the same word that Paul used to describe his own baptism as washing away sins. It is also the same word used by Paul in Titus 3:5 with the "washing of regeneration".

I would also point out that the word in Ephesians 5:26 is from the Greek word ῥῆμα [rhēma] which means utterance, or the spoken word as opposed to "the Word", i.e., Logos.

I know what you believe JBO! But I truly do not believe the abundance of Scripture agrees with what you believe. The only baptism that can wash away our sins is through the Holy Spirit that comes to those ordained to eternal life when they hear the Gospel in His power. Water, being that which John the Baptist baptized with, only had the ability to clean outwardly, and was for the purpose of reminding man that we need cleansing from the guilt as well as the outward filth of our flesh to enter the Kingdom of God and have eternal life. That's why John speaks of the baptism that the one coming after Him would baptize believers with. That baptism cleans man within for it purifies us in heart and mind, giving us a new heart/mind that is no longer condemned by their conscience because in baptism of the Holy Spirit our guilt is washed away.

 

[rwb]

That is not correct. I do not agree with that. I think that water baptism has everything to do with man's entrance into the Kingdom of God. Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is the specific instant in time in the life of the repentant believer when God forgives his sins and gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is regeneration. That is being born again.

Regeneration is indeed being born again! To be born again (regenerated) is to hear the Gospel and believe through the power of the Spirit. If regeneration (being born again) comes through water like that which John the Baptist used, why do we need baptism of the Holy Spirit? Because without the Holy Spirit the Gospel of the Kingdom of God can be heard, but there is no change in the heart of mankind and he/she remains in unbelief.

 

[JBO]

Water, being that which John the Baptist baptized with, only had the ability to clean outwardly,

Wrong, John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins.

Mar 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So both John's baptism and baptism in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38) was for the forgiveness of sins. But in addition, baptism in the name of Jesus gave the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JBO]

Regeneration is indeed being born again! To be born again (regenerated) is to hear the Gospel and believe through the power of the Spirit. If regeneration (being born again) comes through water like that which John the Baptist used, why do we need baptism of the Holy Spirit? Because without the Holy Spirit the Gospel of the Kingdom of God can be heard, but there is no change in the heart of mankind and he/she remains in unbelief.

Baptism in water is baptism in (of, with) the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) is baptism of the Holy Spirit. Baptism (of the repentant believer) in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and the receipt of the Holy Spirit is regeneration. That is being born again.

 

[rwb]

Wrong, John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins.

Mar 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So both John's baptism and baptism in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38) was for the forgiveness of sins. But in addition, baptism in the name of Jesus gave the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Again, if John's baptism cleansed them of sins, why would he speak of another baptism that comes by Jesus that is mightier than his?

Matthew 3:11 (KJV) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Luke 3:16 (KJV) John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

John was proclaiming baptism of repentance which, repentance is necessary for forgiveness of sins. John is not saying they will be forgiven of sins when they are baptized in water, because if that was what he was saying there would be no need for the baptism that Christ would baptize them with.

Peter is saying the same thing that John says: REPENT and be baptized in the name of Jesus and they would receive the gift of tongues that shall come to them through the Holy Spirit in them. Repentance comes from a heart/mind that has been regenerated (born again) of the Holy Spirit when they heard the Gospel proclaimed.

 

[JBO]

Again, if John's baptism cleansed them of sins, why would he speak of another baptism that comes by Jesus that is mightier than his?

Because his baptism did not give the gift of the (indwelling) Holy Spirit. That baptism was presented by Peter (and the other apostles) at Pentecost.

 

[JBO]

John was proclaiming baptism of repentance which, repentance is necessary for forgiveness of sins. John is not saying they will be forgiven of sins when they are baptized in water, because if that was what he was saying there would be no need for the baptism that Christ would baptize them with.

That is precisely what John was saying. The water baptism of the repentant believer was for (unto, in order to get) forgiveness of sins.

Peter is saying the same thing that John says: REPENT and be baptized in the name of Jesus and they would receive the gift of tongues that shall come to them through the Holy Spirit in them. Repentance comes from a heart/mind that has been regenerated (born again) of the Holy Spirit when they heard the Gospel proclaimed.

And there we see the difference between John's baptism and the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was for the forgiveness of sins and in addition for the receiving of the gift (the indwelling) of the Holy Spirit.

 

[rwb]

Because his baptism did not give the gift of the (indwelling) Holy Spirit. That baptism was presented by Peter (and the other apostles) at Pentecost.

It sounds like you understand? How can water through John's baptism that did not give them the Holy Spirit be unto eternal life or as John writes the way we are born again?