SALVATION OF ANIMALS

[Ronald Nolette]

That's probably why you think I can't be in the spirit from sun up till sun down because you can't which is probably because you think walking in him means doing the Word or some nonsense like that.

But to help you end the false teaching you believe about Jesus being merely a created being- I offer one passage for you:

John 1

King James Version

​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

See!? All things were made by Jesus! ALL things! If Jesus was a created being- then the bible says Jesus created HImself- for Jesus created ALL things and without Jesus nothing was made

 

[Ronald Nolette]

As i said.

Your Calvinism is showing., and the issue is..

God is not A Calvinist
Jesus is not a Calvinist
Paul is not a Calvinist
The NT does not teach Calvinism

God makes : CHRISTians

Calvin, deceives them. @Ronald Nolette

I posted a thread called TULIP explained. Instead of hijacking this thread as we have both been guilty of and forced the mods to close a thread, I invite you to post your response on the five points on that thread which was created with you in mind!!

 

[Peterlag]

But to help you end the false teaching you believe about Jesus being merely a created being- I offer one passage for you:

John 1​

​

King James Version​

​

​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

See!? All things were made by Jesus! ALL things! If Jesus was a created being- then the bible says Jesus created HImself- for Jesus created ALL things and without Jesus nothing was made

It says in the beginning was the Word. It does not say in the beginning was Jesus.

 

[Peterlag]

You appear to not understand the English language. Or you intentionally misquote people which is far worse.

I am not a mouthpiece for Calvinism, but biblical truth Calvin reiterated.

You on the other hand ,refuse to defend your positions and instead resort to lying about brethren, straw men and ad-hominem attacks.

NO I know what it means to be born again and be in Christ.

YOu on the other hand deny your own sins which is why you walk in darkness to this day as John said!

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Still waiting for your refutation of the 5 points of Calvinism as being un biblical. I am becoming more convinced you do not have the biblical expertise to refute it, given the way you dodge, divert and avoid defending your position.

First John 1:8 is referring to those who are not born again who say they don't need Jesus because they do not sin. It is not referring to the Christian.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It says in the beginning was the Word. It does not say in the beginning was Jesus.

REad on oh benighted one:

Gods Word explicitly and absolutely declare Jesus is the Word of God!

First John 1:8 is referring to those who are not born again who say they don't need Jesus because they do not sin. It is not referring to the Christian.

C'mon! You are not unlearned are you? Only the most deceptive will say verse 8 is for unbelievers and the rest are for believers when the whole letter is addressed to believers!

Are you sure you are not a Jehovahs Witness.

For someone who has declared they no longer sin (which means you no longer have any error in your speaking) you certainly make lots of mistakes.

 

[Peterlag]

REad on oh benighted one:

Gods Word explicitly and absolutely declare Jesus is the Word of God!

C'mon! You are not unlearned are you? Only the most deceptive will say verse 8 is for unbelievers and the rest are for believers when the whole letter is addressed to believers!

Are you sure you are not a Jehovahs Witness.

For someone who has declared they no longer sin (which means you no longer have any error in your speaking) you certainly make lots of mistakes.

The Apostles were witnessing to new people all of the time. Not all people who went to their meetings or read their letters were already Christian and I was once one of those people. Who do you think Paul was writing to when he said...

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Was he talking to the Christian then?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Apostles were witnessing to new people all of the time. Not all people who went to their meetings or read their letters were already Christian and I was once one of those people. Who do you think Paul was writing to when he said...

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Was he talking to the Christian then?

So now prove 1 John 1:8 was written for unbelievers.

Also show why the Word of God shows Jesus existed before creation but you say He is created.

Do you believe 1 John 1:9 was written to unbelievers? If not why not? If so why so!

 

[Peterlag]

So now prove 1 John 1:8 was written for unbelievers.

Also show why the Word of God shows Jesus existed before creation but you say He is created.

Do you believe 1 John 1:9 was written to unbelievers? If not why not? If so why so!

I never said Jesus was created. He was born and I think many people believe that. Now how do you exist before you're born?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I never said Jesus was created. He was born and I think many people believe that. Now how do you exist before you're born?

If you had bothered to read the passage I cited earlier from Gods Word you would know and not have to ask me, as if you were not instructed.

Which means you believe He did not exist before He was born. Unless you are still playing your say as little as possible so you can have plausible deniability afterwartds.

 

[Peterlag]

If you had bothered to read the passage I cited earlier from Gods Word you would know and not have to ask me, as if you were not instructed.

Which means you believe He did not exist before He was born. Unless you are still playing your say as little as possible so you can have plausible deniability afterwartds.

I once looked up how the "logos" is used in the Bible and it has like 70 different ways it's translated. The "Word" is only one of them. I do not believe Jesus was any of them. Is that the verse you are referring to?

 

[keithr]

I never said Jesus was created. He was born and I think many people believe that. Now how do you exist before you're born?

We do not exist before we are born, or rather, before we are conceived. However, Jesus was the exception. He was not conceived by a human father; he was conceived by God (Luke 1:31,35), and Jesus did exist before he was conceived as a human:

Hebrews 10:5 (WEB):

(5) Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, but you prepared a body for me.​

Joh 6:51,62 (WEB):

(51) I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

(62) Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?​

John 3:13 (ESV):

(13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.​

John 17:5 (WEB):

(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​

Philippians 2:5-8 (WEB):

(5) Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,​

(6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,​

(7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.​

(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.​

Colossians 1:13-16 (WEB):

(13) [God] delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love;​

(14) in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins;​

(15) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.​

(16) For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.​

 

[Peterlag]

We do not exist before we are born, or rather, before we are conceived. However, Jesus was the exception. He was not conceived by a human father; he was conceived by God (Luke 1:31,35), and Jesus did exist before he was conceived as a human:

Hebrews 10:5 (WEB):

(5) Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, but you prepared a body for me.​

Joh 6:51,62 (WEB):

(51) I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

(62) Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?​

John 3:13 (ESV):

(13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.​

John 17:5 (WEB):

(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​

Philippians 2:5-8 (WEB):

(5) Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,​

(6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,​

(7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.​

(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.​

Colossians 1:13-16 (WEB):

(13) [God] delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love;​

(14) in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins;​

(15) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.​

(16) For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.​

Let's start at the bottom... Colossians 1:16
This “creation” is not referring to Genesis 1 with such items like creating oceans, planets and stars, but rather the work of creation that is described in the following clause of the verse (i.e., thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities). The sphere within which these things have been created “in Christ” is that they have been created “in connection with” who Christ is, the plan of redemption that culminated in Christ’s death and resurrection, the realities of new creation, the Body of Christ, of which he is the head, and in relation to Christ himself as the firstborn from the dead. All of God’s secret will, counsels, and activities in creating thrones and dominions and positions of rule and authority are all centered on and have their basis in Jesus, the Christ. His lordship as the risen Anointed One is the framework within which all these realities have been created. Nothing in the world that God is restoring has been created apart from who Christ is as the king and head over all things. It is referring to His creating the positions of authority that are needed to run the Church, which started on the Day of Pentecost.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I once looked up how the "logos" is used in the Bible and it has like 70 different ways it's translated. The "Word" is only one of them. I do not believe Jesus was any of them. Is that the verse you are referring to?

No it is translated very few ways, and all of them refer to a word whether spoken, written or thought. Then it is also translated as Jesus.

So if you do not believe Jesus is the Word at all. Then who is the word of JOhn 1:1 who became flesh in John 1:12 and is the subject of verses 2-18? Also is the one coming from heaven in REv. 19?

Sorry Peter, but Jesus is the Word of God. To deny that is to deny all rules of grammar.

 

[Peterlag]

No it is translated very few ways, and all of them refer to a word whether spoken, written or thought. Then it is also translated as Jesus.

So if you do not believe Jesus is the Word at all. Then who is the word of JOhn 1:1 who became flesh in John 1:12 and is the subject of verses 2-18? Also is the one coming from heaven in REv. 19?

Sorry Peter, but Jesus is the Word of God. To deny that is to deny all rules of grammar.

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[keithr]

Let's start at the bottom... Colossians 1:16

But don't ignore the verses that I quoted that said that Jesus came down from heaven when he became human, and that he was in heaven before he was made human, that he was with God before the world was made, existing in the "form of God".

This “creation” is not referring to Genesis 1 with such items like creating oceans, planets and stars, but rather the work of creation that is described in the following clause of the verse (i.e., thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities). The sphere within which these things have been created “in Christ” is that they have been created “in connection with” who Christ is, the plan of redemption that culminated in Christ’s death and resurrection, the realities of new creation, the Body of Christ, of which he is the head, and in relation to Christ himself as the firstborn from the dead. All of God’s secret will, counsels, and activities in creating thrones and dominions and positions of rule and authority are all centered on and have their basis in Jesus, the Christ. His lordship as the risen Anointed One is the framework within which all these realities have been created. Nothing in the world that God is restoring has been created apart from who Christ is as the king and head over all things.

I don't think that is correct. Paul wrote that "all things" were created through (by) Jesus, even the thrones, etc.. The 'thrones, dominions, principalities and powers' existed before Jesus' ministry. They had been visibly on the earth for thousands of years, and if they had been created "through" Jesus then Jesus must have existed before he became human. Hebrews 1:1-2 (WEB):

(1) God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,​

(2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.​

or as other translations put it, e.g. TLV:

(2) In these last days He has spoken to us through a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things and through whom He created the universe.​

The Greek word (aion) that is translated as "worlds" or "universe" could be translated as "ages" - a period of time - in which case if the ages were made through Jesus then once again Jesus must have existed before he became human.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (WEB):

(6) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.​

Ephesians 3:9 (WEB):

(9) and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;​

When speaking about Jesus Paul wrote, Hebrews 1:8-13 (WEB):

(8) But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.​

(9) You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”​

(10) And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.​

(11) They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does.​

(12) You will roll them up like a mantle, and they will be changed; but you are the same. Your years will not fail.”​

(13) But which of the angels has he told at any time, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet?”​

And in a message from Jesus, Revelation 3:14 (ESV):

(14) “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.​

ISV:

(14) "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation,​

YLT:

(14) 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness—the faithful and true—the chief of the creation of God;​

It is referring to His creating the positions of authority that are needed to run the Church, which started on the Day of Pentecost.

But Paul wrote "all things", not just certain positions of authority in the Church. What are these "thrones, lordships, governments and authorities" that are needed for the Church? We are all equal in Christ, and we have just one head, one Lord - Jesus.

Galatians 3:26-28 (WEB):

(26) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.​

(27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.​

(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

 

[Peterlag]

But don't ignore the verses that I quoted that said that Jesus came down from heaven when he became human, and that he was in heaven before he was made human, that he was with God before the world was made, existing in the "form of God".


I don't think that is correct. Paul wrote that "all things" were created through (by) Jesus, even the thrones, etc.. The 'thrones, dominions, principalities and powers' existed before Jesus' ministry. They had been visibly on the earth for thousands of years, and if they had been created "through" Jesus then Jesus must have existed before he became human. Hebrews 1:1-2 (WEB):

(1) God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,​

(2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.​

or as other translations put it, e.g. TLV:

(2) In these last days He has spoken to us through a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things and through whom He created the universe.​

The Greek word (aion) that is translated as "worlds" or "universe" could be translated as "ages" - a period of time - in which case if the ages were made through Jesus then once again Jesus must have existed before he became human.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (WEB):

(6) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.​

Ephesians 3:9 (WEB):

(9) and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;​

When speaking about Jesus Paul wrote, Hebrews 1:8-13 (WEB):

(8) But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.​

(9) You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”​

(10) And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.​

(11) They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does.​

(12) You will roll them up like a mantle, and they will be changed; but you are the same. Your years will not fail.”​

(13) But which of the angels has he told at any time, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet?”​

And in a message from Jesus, Revelation 3:14 (ESV):

(14) “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.​

ISV:

(14) "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation,​

YLT:

(14) 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness—the faithful and true—the chief of the creation of God;​

But Paul wrote "all things", not just certain positions of authority in the Church. What are these "thrones, lordships, governments and authorities" that are needed for the Church? We are all equal in Christ, and we have just one head, one Lord - Jesus.

Galatians 3:26-28 (WEB):

(26) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.​

(27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.​

(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

But don't ignore the verses that I quoted that said that Jesus came down from heaven when he became human, and that he was in heaven before he was made human, that he was with God before the world was made, existing in the "form of God".


I don't think that is correct. Paul wrote that "all things" were created through (by) Jesus, even the thrones, etc.. The 'thrones, dominions, principalities and powers' existed before Jesus' ministry. They had been visibly on the earth for thousands of years, and if they had been created "through" Jesus then Jesus must have existed before he became human. Hebrews 1:1-2 (WEB):

(1) God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,​

(2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.​

or as other translations put it, e.g. TLV:

(2) In these last days He has spoken to us through a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things and through whom He created the universe.​

The Greek word (aion) that is translated as "worlds" or "universe" could be translated as "ages" - a period of time - in which case if the ages were made through Jesus then once again Jesus must have existed before he became human.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (WEB):

(6) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.​

Ephesians 3:9 (WEB):

(9) and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;​

When speaking about Jesus Paul wrote, Hebrews 1:8-13 (WEB):

(8) But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.​

(9) You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”​

(10) And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.​

(11) They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does.​

(12) You will roll them up like a mantle, and they will be changed; but you are the same. Your years will not fail.”​

(13) But which of the angels has he told at any time, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet?”​

And in a message from Jesus, Revelation 3:14 (ESV):

(14) “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.​

ISV:

(14) "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation,​

YLT:

(14) 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness—the faithful and true—the chief of the creation of God;​

But Paul wrote "all things", not just certain positions of authority in the Church. What are these "thrones, lordships, governments and authorities" that are needed for the Church? We are all equal in Christ, and we have just one head, one Lord - Jesus.

Galatians 3:26-28 (WEB):

(26) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.​

(27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.​

(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

"all things were created.” This verse is not referring to God creating the world in the beginning. It is referring to His creating the positions of authority that are needed to run the Church, which started on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2). The Bible describes both the physical and spiritual realities that God created by the phrase “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.”

When the word “all” or “every” or “everything” is used, it is often used in a limited sense. For example, when Absalom was holding a council against his father David, 2 Samuel 17:14 says that “all the men of Israel” agreed on advice that was given. “All” the men of Israel were not there and did not all agree, but the verse uses “all” in its limited sense meaning, “all” who were there, and that limited group all agreed.

And on the form... I believe morphē refers to an outer appearance and you believe it's an inner essence.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

You love to strain at gnats to swallow camels.

JOhn 1 clearly shows Jesus is the Word of verse 1. You are foolish.

The Word became flesh- Jesus pre existed as the Word. Not an expression or plan or purpose but as Jehovah of Hosts as He is described in Isaiah and at Creation when Jesus as the Word created everything that was created!

The very fact you have to hyper literalize theser truths show you are so very wrong biblically!

Once again because you have refused to acknowledge these truths found in Scripture:

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Man is created in the image of God- not of God and of angels.

Elohim=plural of elowah

Adonai= plural of Adon!

John 1

King James Version

​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Jesus is the Word of god! Not an idea but God the son.

Proverbs 30:4​

“Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son’s name?”

-Daniel 3:25​

“He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

Yo0u can play al teh silly word games you wish, but Gods Word says Jesus pre-existed His incarnation. He was a being known as the Word of god- not an idea, expression, plan or thought, but God the Son. Even teh OT acknowledges long before Jesus was born that God had a son back then. and it wasn't an angel.

 

[Peterlag]

You love to strain at gnats to swallow camels.

JOhn 1 clearly shows Jesus is the Word of verse 1. You are foolish.

The Word became flesh- Jesus pre existed as the Word. Not an expression or plan or purpose but as Jehovah of Hosts as He is described in Isaiah and at Creation when Jesus as the Word created everything that was created!

The very fact you have to hyper literalize theser truths show you are so very wrong biblically!

Once again because you have refused to acknowledge these truths found in Scripture:

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Man is created in the image of God- not of God and of angels.

Elohim=plural of elowah

Adonai= plural of Adon!

John 1​

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King James Version​

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1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Jesus is the Word of god! Not an idea but God the son.

Proverbs 30:4​

“Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son’s name?”

-Daniel 3:25​

“He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

Yo0u can play al teh silly word games you wish, but Gods Word says Jesus pre-existed His incarnation. He was a being known as the Word of god- not an idea, expression, plan or thought, but God the Son. Even teh OT acknowledges long before Jesus was born that God had a son back then. and it wasn't an angel.

The image of God is Spirit. Therefore we were created with spirit.

 

[keithr]

When the word “all” or “every” or “everything” is used, it is often used in a limited sense. For example, when Absalom was holding a council against his father David, 2 Samuel 17:14 says that “all the men of Israel” agreed on advice that was given. “All” the men of Israel were not there and did not all agree, but the verse uses “all” in its limited sense meaning, “all” who were there, and that limited group all agreed.

Hebrews 1:2 doesn't say "all", it says "he made the worlds/universe/ages". 1 Corinthians 8:6 says "through whom are all things", not "some things". And "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands" is unambiguous, it definitely refers to the creation of the physical universe, so Jesus must have existed before he became a man.

And on the form... I believe morphē refers to an outer appearance and you believe it's an inner essence.

Regardless, if Jesus was "in the form of God" before he was made "in human form", then he existed before he was made human! Jesus lived in heaven before he was made human, before God sent him to the earth, preparing a human body for him:

John 8:14 (WEB):

(14) Jesus answered them, “Even if I testify about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you don’t know where I came from, or where I am going.​

John 8:23 (WEB):

(23) He said to them, “You are from beneath. I am from above. You are of this world. I am not of this world.​

John 6:38 (WEB):

(38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.​

John the baptist said regarding Jesus, John 3:30-31 (WEB):

(30) He must increase, but I must decrease.​

(31) He who comes from above is above all. He who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.​

God's only begotten Son didn't start out as a man, lower than the angels. He had a greater glory than that, and he prayed to God to have that glory returned to him - John 17:5 (WEB):

(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​

John 8:42 (WEB):

(42) Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven’t come of myself, but he sent me.​

(Jesus had to exist for God to send him.)​

John 16:28 (WEB):

(28) I came from the Father, and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”​

(Jesus couldn't come into the world if he didn't already exist outside of the world.​

 

[Peterlag]

Hebrews 1:2 doesn't say "all", it says "he made the worlds/universe/ages". 1 Corinthians 8:6 says "through whom are all things", not "some things". And "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands" is unambiguous, it definitely refers to the creation of the physical universe, so Jesus must have existed before he became a man.


Regardless, if Jesus was "in the form of God" before he was made "in human form", then he existed before he was made human! Jesus lived in heaven before he was made human, before God sent him to the earth, preparing a human body for him:

John 8:14 (WEB):

(14) Jesus answered them, “Even if I testify about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you don’t know where I came from, or where I am going.​

John 8:23 (WEB):

(23) He said to them, “You are from beneath. I am from above. You are of this world. I am not of this world.​

John 6:38 (WEB):

(38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.​

John the baptist said regarding Jesus, John 3:30-31 (WEB):

(30) He must increase, but I must decrease.​

(31) He who comes from above is above all. He who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.​

God's only begotten Son didn't start out as a man, lower than the angels. He had a greater glory than that, and he prayed to God to have that glory returned to him - John 17:5 (WEB):

(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​

John 8:42 (WEB):

(42) Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven’t come of myself, but he sent me.​

(Jesus had to exist for God to send him.)​

John 16:28 (WEB):

(28) I came from the Father, and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”​

(Jesus couldn't come into the world if he didn't already exist outside of the world.​

The verse does not say “Jesus, being God” but rather “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.

You mentioned a few posts ago that I should not ignore the other Scripture you posted. Yet when you respond you mention 10 more. I don't want you to think I'm ignoring any of what you post. I simply cannot respond to all of them. I will give you my take here on John 17:5... This verse has been used to prove that Jesus is God because of the phrase “that I had with you before the world was.” There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and those called to be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was part of the intention of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy says that each Christian was given grace “before the ages began” (2 Tim. 1:9), no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it will come into manifestation.

Jesus was praying that the glory the Old Testament foretold he would have, and which had been in the mind of God the Father since before the world began, would come into concretion. Trinitarians however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth, and they assert that this proves he had access to the mind and memory of his “God nature.” However, if as a man, Jesus “remembered” being in glory with the Father before the world began, then he would have known he was God in every sense. He would not have thought of himself as a “man” at all. If he knew he was God, he would not and could not have been “tempted in every way just as we are” because nothing he encountered would have been a “real” temptation to him. He would have had no fear and no thought of failure. There is no real sense in which Scripture could actually say he was “made like his brothers in every way” (Heb. 2:17) because he would not have been like us at all. Furthermore, Scripture says that Jesus “grew” in knowledge and wisdom. That would not really be true if Christ had access to a God-nature with infinite knowledge and wisdom.