SALVATION OF ANIMALS

[Ronald Nolette]

The image of God is Spirit. Therefore we were created with spirit.

Your answers show what happens when you trust your own opinion more than the Word of God. Image doe not mean that in either the Old or New Testaments. You are teaching your own word and not gods.

 

[Peterlag]

Your answers show what happens when you trust your own opinion more than the Word of God. Image doe not mean that in either the Old or New Testaments. You are teaching your own word and not gods.

Well, if created in His image does not mean He gave us spirit because that is what He is. Then what does created in His image mean?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, if created in His image does not mean He gave us spirit because that is what He is. Then what does created in His image mean?

We are spirit, soul and body. Just as God is triune, we are trichotomous.

We have a soul which rationalizes, thinks, feels, adds knowledge to our present learning etc. animals do not. Saved people have their human spirit made alive . This enables us to fellowship with god. We have a body which houses both.

We are made in His resemblance.

Do you believe jesus is in heaven with a glorified human body?

 

[Peterlag]

We are spirit, soul and body. Just as God is triune, we are trichotomous.

We have a soul which rationalizes, thinks, feels, adds knowledge to our present learning etc. animals do not. Saved people have their human spirit made alive . This enables us to fellowship with god. We have a body which houses both.

We are made in His resemblance.

Do you believe jesus is in heaven with a glorified human body?

I don't know anybody that believes what you just said.

Animals have body and soul.
It's the spirit that Christians have that allows us to hear from God.

 

[keithr]

The verse does not say “Jesus, being God” but rather “being in the form of God.”

Indeed. I was not arguing that Jesus was God, I was pointing out that he existed in a non-human form before he was made human, therefore he existed before he was born as a human (that's what we have been discussing - right?).

You mentioned a few posts ago that I should not ignore the other Scripture you posted. Yet when you respond you mention 10 more.

Yes, I added more Scripture quotes to support why I thought your interpretation of Colossians 1:16 was incorrect, giving more support to confirm that by "all things" Paul did mean the whole universe, not just new "positions of rule and authority".

I don't want you to think I'm ignoring any of what you post. I simply cannot respond to all of them. I will give you my take here on John 17:5... This verse has been used to prove that Jesus is God because of the phrase “that I had with you before the world was.”

Again, I was not arguing that Jesus was God - I don't believe the Trinity doctrine!

There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge “in the mind of God?”

He existed literally. I quoted verses that showed that he was in heaven with God before he was sent by God to the earth. If he didn't exist before he became human, then God could not have sent him! As Jesus said, John 8:42 (ESV):

(42) Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.​

NET:

(42) Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me.​

Clearly Jesus existed before he was sent by God to be our saviour.

As Jesus also stated (quoting The Living Bible, as most other translations wrongly translate it with a Trinitarian bias), John 5:58 (TLB):

(58) Jesus: “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!”​

or the CEV (Contemporary English Version):

(58) Jesus answered, “I tell you for certain that even before Abraham was, I was, and I am.”​

When 2 Timothy says that each Christian was given grace “before the ages began” (2 Tim. 1:9), no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it will come into manifestation.

Jesus prayed for the glory that he "had with you {his Father, i.e. God} before the world existed". As Paul stated, God "has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds" (Hebrews 1:2, WEB), and applies to Jesus, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands" (Hebrews 1:10, WEB). Again, it is clear that Paul taught that Jesus had existed for thousands of years before he was born as a human.

Trinitarians however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth,

So do I, but I'm not a Trinitarian!

and they assert that this proves he had access to the mind and memory of his “God nature.” However, if as a man, Jesus “remembered” being in glory with the Father before the world began, then he would have known he was God in every sense.

No he wouldn't have - he knew that he wasn't God; he wasn't his own Father! As Jesus said to God, John 17:3 (WEB):

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

He would not have thought of himself as a “man” at all.

Jesus did say, John 8:23 (WEB):

(23) He said to them, “You are from beneath. I am from above. You are of this world. I am not of this world.​

If he knew he was God, he would not and could not have been “tempted in every way just as we are” because nothing he encountered would have been a “real” temptation to him. He would have had no fear and no thought of failure. There is no real sense in which Scripture could actually say he was “made like his brothers in every way” (Heb. 2:17) because he would not have been like us at all. Furthermore, Scripture says that Jesus “grew” in knowledge and wisdom.

All good anti-Trinitarian arguments, but not relevant to our discussion on whether Jesus existed before his human birth.

That would not really be true if Christ had access to a God-nature with infinite knowledge and wisdom.

He had a spirit being nature, but not infintite knowledge (God had not at that time revealed all of His detailed plans to Jesus), and he was not at that point immortal (only God was immortal at that time). Now Jesus is immortal, like God - Revelation 1:18 (WEB):

(18) ... I was dead, and behold, I am alive forever and ever. Amen. ...​

 

[Peterlag]

Indeed. I was not arguing that Jesus was God, I was pointing out that he existed in a non-human form before he was made human, therefore he existed before he was born as a human (that's what we have been discussing - right?).


Yes, I added more Scripture quotes to support why I thought your interpretation of Colossians 1:16 was incorrect, giving more support to confirm that by "all things" Paul did mean the whole universe, not just new "positions of rule and authority".


Again, I was not arguing that Jesus was God - I don't believe the Trinity doctrine!


He existed literally. I quoted verses that showed that he was in heaven with God before he was sent by God to the earth. If he didn't exist before he became human, then God could not have sent him! As Jesus said, John 8:42 (ESV):

(42) Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.​

NET:

(42) Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me.​

Clearly Jesus existed before he was sent by God to be our saviour.

As Jesus also stated (quoting The Living Bible, as most other translations wrongly translate it with a Trinitarian bias), John 5:58 (TLB):

(58) Jesus: “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!”​

or the CEV (Contemporary English Version):

(58) Jesus answered, “I tell you for certain that even before Abraham was, I was, and I am.”​

Jesus prayed for the glory that he "had with you {his Father, i.e. God} before the world existed". As Paul stated, God "has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds" (Hebrews 1:2, WEB), and applies to Jesus, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands" (Hebrews 1:10, WEB). Again, it is clear that Paul taught that Jesus had existed for thousands of years before he was born as a human.


So do I, but I'm not a Trinitarian!


No he wouldn't have - he knew that he wasn't God; he wasn't his own Father! As Jesus said to God, John 17:3 (WEB):

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

Jesus did say, John 8:23 (WEB):

(23) He said to them, “You are from beneath. I am from above. You are of this world. I am not of this world.​

All good anti-Trinitarian arguments, but not releveant to our discussion ow whether Jesus existed before his human birth.

He had a spirit being nature, but not infintite knowledge (God had not at that time revealed all of His detailed plans to Jesus), and he was not at that point immortal (only God was immortal at that time). Now Jesus is immortal, like God - Revelation 1:18 (WEB):

(18) ... I was dead, and behold, I am alive forever and ever. Amen. ...​

Opppssss... I'm afraid we need to back this up because I did not know what we were conversing about. The only other person that told me what you are saying was a Jehovah's Witness. Are you with that group?

 

[keithr]

Opppssss... I'm afraid we need to back this up because I did not know what we were conversing about. The only other person that told me what you are saying was a Jehovah's Witness. Are you with that group?

No, I am not, nor have I ever been, a Jehovah's Witness.

To summarise, at one point only God existed, and He was (and by definition always will be) immortal (He cannot possibly die). Then his only begotten Son (Jesus) came into being (birth or creation - the details are not specified), but he was not immortal. God had Jesus implement His plan of creation, so that everything else was created by (i.e. through) His Son. All of the angels (including Satan) were created by Jesus first, then the universe, including planet earth, then all life on the earth. Neither the angels, nor any physical living beings on the earth are immortal.

In order to redeem mankind from their punishment for sin, God chose His only begotten Son to pay the redemption price, which meant he had to have his nature changed to be a man and to die as a perfect, sinless man. Adam was a perfect, sinless man when he sinned, so the punishment was the loss of his perfect human life. Jesus willingly obeyed God and died on the cross, taking the sins of Adam and all his decendants upon himself. Jesus could do that because he was mortal - he could die. However, because Jesus had not personally sinned, God was justified in restoring Jesus back to life (which God has proved that He is able to do), and He gave Jesus immortality, so that he is just like God now.

The only living being to ever have a change of nature is Jesus, whose nature was changed twice - from mortal spirit being to human being, and then changed to immortal divine spirit being. Christians are also promised that they will have a change of nature when they are resurrected to lfe, and will be changed to have the same immortal spirit being nature as Jesus (and God)!

2 Peter 1:2-4 (WEB):

(2) Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,​

(3) seeing that his divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and virtue;​

(4) by which he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.​

HalleluYahava!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I don't know anybody that believes what you just said.

Animals have body and soul.
It's the spirit that Christians have that allows us to hear from God.

Then it is obvious you do not know many Christan's. You may know JW's and unitarians but all Christians I know and teachers I have read or studied under all teach the biblical concept of man having a body soul and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Accepting the Word of God as is is simple and true!

 

[Peterlag]

Then it is obvious you do not know many Christan's. You may know JW's and unitarians but all Christians I know and teachers I have read or studied under all teach the biblical concept of man having a body soul and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Accepting the Word of God as is is simple and true!

Thessalonians is talking to Christians. You need to stop drinking.

 

[Peterlag]

No, I am not, nor have I ever been, a Jehovah's Witness.

To summarise, at one point only God existed, and He was (and by definition always will be) immortal (He cannot possibly die). Then his only begotten Son (Jesus) came into being (birth or creation - the details are not specified), but he was not immortal. God had Jesus implement His plan of creation, so that everything else was created by (i.e. through) His Son. All of the angels (including Satan) were created by Jesus first, then the universe, including planet earth, then all life on the earth. Neither the angels, nor any physical living beings on the earth are immortal.

In order to redeem mankind from their punishment for sin, God chose His only begotten Son to pay the redemption price, which meant he had to have his nature changed to be a man and to die as a perfect, sinless man. Adam was a perfect, sinless man when he sinned, so the punishment was the loss of his perfect human life. Jesus willingly obeyed God and died on the cross, taking the sins of Adam and all his decendants upon himself. Jesus could do that because he was mortal - he could die. However, because Jesus had not personally sinned, God was justified in restoring Jesus back to life (which God has proved that He is able to do), and He gave Jesus immortality, so that he is just like God now.

The only living being to ever have a change of nature is Jesus, whose nature was changed twice- from mortal spirit being to human being, and then changed to immortal divine spirit being. Christians are also promised that they will have a change of nature when they are resurrected to lfe, and will be changed to have the same immortal spirit being nature as Jesus (and God)!

2 Peter 1:2-4 (WEB):

(2) Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,​

(3) seeing that his divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and virtue;​

(4) by which he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.​

HalleluYahava!

I like you keithr. You seem to have a gentle manor and you write well. We do however disagree on this topic. I will give my take on a verse that you would provide as to why you believe what you do. But, I have no comment on the book of Revelation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Thessalonians is talking to Christians. You need to stop drinking.

Correct and Paul is asking God to bless their body, soul and spirit. Just like I told you and you deny.

 

[Peterlag]

Correct and Paul is asking God to bless their body, soul and spirit. Just like I told you and you deny.

Christians have body, soul and spirit. Non-Christians have body and soul. So does the dog.

 

[keithr]

You seem to have a gentle manor and you write well.

But I don't own a manor. Oh wait, perhaps you meant "manner"?

We do however disagree on this topic.

It seems so. But if we keep studying God's word then we should learn more and more of the truth (light).

1 Corinthians 13:12 (WEB):

(12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.​

Proverbs 4:18 (WEB):

(18) But the path of the righteous is like the dawning light, that shines more and more until the perfect day.​

Psalms 119:105 (WEB):

(105) Your word is a lamp to my feet, and a light for my path.​

 

[Peterlag]

But I don't own a manor. Oh wait, perhaps you meant "manner"?


It seems so. But if we keep studying God's word then we should learn more and more of the truth (light).

1 Corinthians 13:12 (WEB):

(12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.​

Proverbs 4:18 (WEB):

(18) But the path of the righteous is like the dawning light, that shines more and more until the perfect day.​

Psalms 119:105 (WEB):

(105) Your word is a lamp to my feet, and a light for my path.​

I rest my case on the part that you write well since you know the difference between manor and manner. But concerning the Scriptures... I'm an expert on the New Testament and I don't see a verse anywhere from Acts to Jude that teaches or even suggest that there was a Jesus before he was born from his mother Mary.

 

[keithr]

But concerning the Scriptures... I'm an expert on the New Testament and I don't see a verse anywhere from Acts to Jude that teaches or even suggest that there was a Jesus before he was born from his mother Mary.

Well I've quoted a lot of verses (at least 24) which suggest that Jesus did exist before he was born in Bethlehem. If that doesn't convince you then I don't know what will. Keep it in mind as you read the Bible, and delve deeper into the meanings of the Greek and Hebrew words, and one day it may dawn on you that Jesus did exist long before he became a man. For example, Colossians 1:17 (WEB):

(17) He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.​

Albert Barnes' Notes says of the above verse:

he is before all things - As he must be, if he created all things. Those who regard this as referring to a moral creation, interpret it as meaning that he has the pre-eminence over all things; not as referring to his pre-existence. But the fair and proper meaning of the word “before” (πρὸ pro) is, that he was before all things in the order of existence; compare Mat_8:29; Joh_11:55; Joh_13:1; Act_5:36; Act_21:38; 2Co_12:2. It is equivalent to saying that he was eternal - for he that had an existence before any thing was created, must be eternal. Thus, it is equivalent to the phrase, “In the beginning;” Gen_1:1;​

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Christians have body, soul and spirit. Non-Christians have body and soul. So does the dog.

Well that is what I have taught all along!

 

[Peterlag]

Well I've quoted a lot of verses (at least 24) which suggest that Jesus did exist before he was born in Bethlehem. If that doesn't convince you then I don't know what will. Keep it in mind as you read the Bible, and delve deeper into the meanings of the Greek and Hebrew words, and one day it may dawn on you that Jesus did exist long before he became a man. For example, Colossians 1:17 (WEB):

(17) He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.​

Albert Barnes' Notes says of the above verse:

he is before all things - As he must be, if he created all things. Those who regard this as referring to a moral creation, interpret it as meaning that he has the pre-eminence over all things; not as referring to his pre-existence. But the fair and proper meaning of the word “before” (πρὸ pro) is, that he was before all things in the order of existence; compare Mat_8:29; Joh_11:55; Joh_13:1; Act_5:36; Act_21:38; 2Co_12:2. It is equivalent to saying that he was eternal - for he that had an existence before any thing was created, must be eternal. Thus, it is equivalent to the phrase, “In the beginning;” Gen_1:1;​

This is how I see it...

“before all things.” The Greek word translated as before is the preposition pro (#4253 πρό). Pro can mean “before” in the sense of either space, time, or priority. The meaning here in Colossians 1:17 is that of rank or priority; Christ is before all things in that he holds priority of rank above everything and everyone else.

“are held together.” This verse is speaking of the positions of authority that Christ created in the Christian Church, and how those authorities relate to Jesus and to each other. The verb has several meanings that are pertinent to how these authorities relate to each other.

 

[keithr]

This is how I see it...

“before all things.” The Greek word translated as before is the preposition pro (#4253 πρό). Pro can mean “before” in the sense of either space, time, or priority. The meaning here in Colossians 1:17 is that of rank or priority; Christ is before all things in that he holds priority of rank above everything and everyone else.

“are held together.” This verse is speaking of the positions of authority that Christ created in the Christian Church, and how those authorities relate to Jesus and to each other. The verb has several meanings that are pertinent to how these authorities relate to each other.

Well some Bible translators disagree with you, e.g.:

ISV:

(17) He himself existed before anything else did, and he holds all things together.​

GNB:

(17) Christ existed before all things, and in union with him all things have their proper place.​

ERV:

(17) The Son was there before anything was made. And all things continue because of him.​

The translators probably, rightly, considered harmony with other verses of Scripture to determine the most likely intended meaning, such as:

Hebrews 1:2 (WEB):

(2) ... his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.​

and John 8:58 (TLB):

(58) Jesus: “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!”​

(Jesus wasn't saying, "Before Abraham came into existence, YHVH" because saying such a thing doesn't make sense, especially in the context of the discussion Jesus was having, but even if Jesus was saying that he was God then that too would mean that Jesus existed before he became human!)

J.B. Phillips New Testament in Modern English (copyright 1960, 1972) translates the passage into modern English very well, and brings home the full force of the original message - Colossians 1:15-20 (PHILLIPS):

Now Christ is the visible expression of the invisible God. He existed before creation began, for it was through him that every thing was made, whether spiritual or material, seen or unseen. Through him, and for him, also, were created power and dominion, ownership and authority. In fact, every single thing was created through, and for him. He is both the first principle and the upholding principle of the whole scheme of creation. And now he is the head of the body which is composed of all Christian people. Life from nothing began through him, and life from the dead began through him, and he is, therefore, justly called the Lord of all. It was in him that the full nature of God chose to live, and through him God planned to reconcile in his own person, as it were, everything on earth and everything in Heaven by virtue of the sacrifice of the cross.​

It is also very dodgey to attribute different interpretations to "all things" when it is used twice in the same short sentence. It surely has the same meaning in both instances (it's the same Greek word - pas). If it means "everything and everyone" in the first part of the sentence, then it has the same meaning in the second part - it can't mean just "positions of authority in the Christian Church"!

 

[Peterlag]

Well some Bible translators disagree with you, e.g.:

ISV:

(17) He himself existed before anything else did, and he holds all things together.​

GNB:

(17) Christ existed before all things, and in union with him all things have their proper place.​

ERV:

(17) The Son was there before anything was made. And all things continue because of him.​

The translators probably, rightly, considered harmony with other verses of Scripture to determine the most likely intended meaning, such as:

Hebrews 1:2 (WEB):

(2) ... his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.​

and John 5:58 (TLB):

(58) Jesus: “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!”​

(Jesus wasn't saying, "Before Abraham came into existence, YHVH" because saying such a thing doesn't make sense, especially in the context of the discussion Jesus was having, but even if Jesus was saying that he was God then that too would mean that Jesus existed before he became human!)

J.B. Phillips New Testament in Modern English (copyright 1960, 1972) translates the passage into modern English very well, and brings home the full force of the original message - Colossians 1:15-20 (PHILLIPS):

Now Christ is the visible expression of the invisible God. He existed before creation began, for it was through him that every thing was made, whether spiritual or material, seen or unseen. Through him, and for him, also, were created power and dominion, ownership and authority. In fact, every single thing was created through, and for him. He is both the first principle and the upholding principle of the whole scheme of creation. And now he is the head of the body which is composed of all Christian people. Life from nothing began through him, and life from the dead began through him, and he is, therefore, justly called the Lord of all. It was in him that the full nature of God chose to live, and through him God planned to reconcile in his own person, as it were, everything on earth and everything in Heaven by virtue of the sacrifice of the cross.​

It is also very dodgey to attribute different interpretations to "all things" when it is used twice in the same short sentence. It surely has the same meaning in both instances (it's the same Greek word - pas). If it means "everything and everyone" in the first part of the sentence, then it has the same meaning in the second part - it can't mean just "positions of authority in the Christian Church"!

Hebrews 1:2
“ages.” The Greek word is the plural of aiōn (#165 αἰών ) and means “ages.” This verse is referring to the “ages” not the “world.” Vine’s Lexicon has an age, a period of time, marked in the N.T. usage by spiritual or moral characteristics, is sometimes translated world. The R.V. margin always has age. Bullinger’s Critical Lexicon has: Aion [age].

I can't find a John 5:58

 

[keithr]

Hebrews 1:2
“ages.” The Greek word is the plural of aiōn (#165 αἰών ) and means “ages.” This verse is referring to the “ages” not the “world.” Vine’s Lexicon has an age, a period of time, marked in the N.T. usage by spiritual or moral characteristics, is sometimes translated world. The R.V. margin always has age. Bullinger’s Critical Lexicon has: Aion [age].

Yep, I've already covered that in a previous post (post #415).

I can't find a John 5:58

Sorry, that was a typing error (which I've corrected). It should have been John 8:58.