Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[Spiritual Israelite]

I can see how a remnant were saved and the rest blinded. The remnant were saved by grace and weren’t blinded because sight was a gift to them. The rest that claimed they had spiritual insight were blinded and their sin remained.



John 9:39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.



The Pharisees had some sight, they knew the scriptures but rejected Jesus. They were blind concerning that part, their sins remained.



Romans 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.



If the blindness in part was only referring to some being saved and some not then Romans 11:7-8 would be a universal statement for both Israel and Gentiles through out all of history but Gentiles are never said to be blind in part.
Israel remained blind in part concerning Jesus until the fullness of the Gentiles came in, that is until the Gentiles fulfilled the prophecy concerning them.



Luke 17:30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.



The partial blindness of not recognizing Jesus as the promised Messiah was lifted when the Son of man was revealed just prior to the AOD fleeing.



Matthew 24:40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.



The word taken <3880> can mean to receive something transmitted, to receive with the mind. Since Matthew 24:40-41 takes place during the time of the AOD it makes sense to equate the word “taken” with the Son of man being revealed, with the blindness in part being lifted, and with the AOD fleeing taking place. All these things fit together when blindness in part is viewed as understanding some of the scriptures but not recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.

Despite my showing you the context of what being blinded in part means by quoting Romans 11:5-7, where Paul talks about a remnant of Israelites in his day being saved and the rest being blinded (therefore, the rest who were blinded represented the part of Israel that was blinded - blinded in part), you still think it has something to do with individuals being partially blind. All I can do is shake my head.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree. A person who is blind in part doesn’t have the free will to choose not to be blind in part and a person who isn’t blind in part isn’t necessarily a believer.

Can you give us your explanation of what blindness in part means?

In context it means some of Israel were blinded, and some were not. There was always a remnant of Israel that had faith in Christ, so not blinded.

 

[CTK]

In context it means some of Israel were blinded, and some were not. There was always a remnant of Israel that had faith in Christ, so not blinded.

Let me ask you folks a question. Was this “blindness” purposeful and deliberate and this was ordained by God? That the Jews had no choice in this matter?

 

[ewq1938]

Let me ask you folks a question. Was this “blindness” purposeful and deliberate and this was ordained by God? That the Jews had no choice in this matter?

God blinded those who were already unfaithful. He did not blind people who had open minds on this. It's like putting a blindfold on a blind person.

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

The Pharisees rejected Christ and they were blinded to remain in that spiritual condition.

 

[Timtofly]

No, it’s clear to me that the rest of the dead spiritually came to life after the millennium, that is the same time the Son of man is revealed, the same time the fullness of the Gentiles come in, and the same time the blindness in part is lifted. It all fits and makes sense.

So you are an universalist claiming every one will eventually get redeemed? Did that already happen in the first century?

The fulness of the Gentiles was complete at the beginning of the thousand years. Those beheaded were the last Gentiles as part of the fulness of the Gentiles. Even if this is merely spiritual, you have the completion at the wrong end of the thousand years.

The first resurrection is physical, because those last Gentiles are no longer beheaded. What is a spiritual beheading?

John did not say all will live again, immediately at the end of the thousand years in some universal description. John's point was that none of them could live again during the thousand years. It was not that every so often, some could live again over a thousand year period. The beheaded did physically live again on earth at the start. As pointed out by other posters, this living again is not until the GWT Judgment. The GWT Judgment is not immediately at the end of the thousand years. John says there is a gap, called Satan's little season, where many can be deceived by Satan, who were physically alive, not spiritually alive. There is nothing in Revelation 20 that implies some were physically alive, but spiritually dead.

The first resurrection was necessary, because they were physically beheaded, and came back to physical life. There is literally no verse in Revelation 20 that even claims the dead were given the first resurrection, at the end of the millennium. John seems to indicate a universal action of all the dead being thrown into the LOF, because they were both physically and spiritually dead. Some would say none of them are given a second chance at spiritual (eternal redemption) life. A physical resurrection is assumed, but that is not explicit either. If any if the dead receive life, that would be eternal life, that avoids the second death, the LOF. That is both physical and spiritual.

The first resurrection is the restoration of the physical body, and by association free from sin and death. Why would God resurrect any one to just keeping sinning, which would lead back to the death they just were restored from? That makes no sense at all. Spiritual restoration is inherent in a first resurrection physical body. A physical resurrection is not just back into the body of sin and death. No one will sin or die naturally in the millennium. That is why it has not happened yet. The millennium cannot even start until Adam's punishment of sin and death has been removed from creation. Many Premillennialists are wrong thinking sin and death continue into the Day of the Lord.

The Sabbath Day was set up under the Law as a type of the future Day of the Lord. It was to be Holy and set apart from the other 6 days of sin and death.

 

[grafted branch]

Let me ask you folks a question. Was this “blindness” purposeful and deliberate and this was ordained by God?

I would say this, on the one hand, from God’s perspective, everything is already known and if God wanted it another way He could’ve made that happen. From our human perspective it appears as though we have free will, that is, outside of anything that has been prophesied about us.

It was prophesied in several places that Israel would be blinded but since that blindness involved not understanding the scripture, those who were blinded couldn’t discern what prophecies involved themselves.

Isaiah 29:10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. 11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

That the Jews had no choice in this matter?

When looking at whether we have a choice in a matter or not, consider this …

Jesus tells Peter that he will deny Him. Peter says “Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee”. Clearly Peter’s will is not to deny Jesus at this point yet there was nothing Peter could’ve done to stop his denying Jesus, no amount of will power could’ve stopped it. If we were to insist that Peter did still have the ability to stop the denial after Jesus prophesied it, then Jesus tempted or tested God as to whether He can tell a lie or not.

Now, someone could argue that just because Jesus said Peter would deny Him, it didn’t mean that Jesus couldn’t “repent” of that statement.

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

I know there are many folks that hold the belief that the Jews didn’t have to kill Jesus, that they could’ve accepted Him at that time. Personally I don’t think it is sound doctrine to interpret scripture that way, if we do then there is no future prophecy that can be trusted as absolute, after all we would have the free will to not act according to the prophecy. Satan’s little season, after the millennium, comes to mind as an example, it would become something that may or may not be true.

Since faith in God is essential for salvation it just doesn’t seem to add up if an attribute of God is that He has the ability to “repent” or take back His own words. This certainly doesn’t seem to be the case throughout history.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let me ask you folks a question. Was this “blindness” purposeful and deliberate and this was ordained by God? That the Jews had no choice in this matter?

Well, the ones who were unbelievers had a choice to believe or not in the first place, but at that point in time almost 2,000 years ago, it was God who blinded them and it was clearly purposeful and deliberate.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

So, verse 8 here answers your question, but then Paul talks about why God did that here:

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

God blinded them so that salvation could come to the Gentiles which, in turn, would provoke some of those who were blinded to jealousy and lead to their salvation.

 

[Timtofly]

1. After the Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10):
   • The wicked dead are resurrected to join Satan’s final rebellion. (FIRST RESURRECTION OF WICKED)
   • Fire from heaven devours their rebellion (ends their physical presence again). Gog / Magog (SECOND DEATH OF WICKED)
   • Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

Comment: I don't believe anyone has an issue with the above.

This is blatantly wrong, and your added opinion.

The wicked dead are not deceived after the thousand years. REALLY?

They have been in sheol for a thousand years and you think they were only deceived after the thousand years? What about God were they deceived about after spending a thousand years in sheol, plus all those who were dead for 6 plus thousand years prior to the Second Coming?

No-one escapes sheol to attack Jerusalem. That would be a doctrinal fantasy.

 

[Timtofly]

It’s not a dilemma though, our citizenship is currently in New Jerusalem not a physical Jerusalem. You are assuming that just because a literal city was rebuilt that it now has relevance. If the Jews started sacrificing lambs again it wouldn’t be relevant either.

A literal New Jerusalem city coming down when Christ returns is a possibility that I’m not arguing against but the millennium itself was already fulfilled.

There is no New Jerusalem in this current creation. What thousand year period ended, that ushered in a New Jerusalem spiritually or physically?

Are you saying there was no New Jerusalem for a thousand years after the Cross?

If there is a physical Jerusalem it is in this physical creation. If there is a physical New Jerusalem, it will be in the next physical creation. There is not a separate spiritual creation in existence along side of a physical creation. You are a spiritual person now, do you exist beside yourself in two different creations?

 

[grafted branch]

There is no New Jerusalem in this current creation. What thousand year period ended, that ushered in a New Jerusalem spiritually or physically?

Are you saying there was no New Jerusalem for a thousand years after the Cross?

If there is a physical Jerusalem it is in this physical creation. If there is a physical New Jerusalem, it will be in the next physical creation. There is not a separate spiritual creation in existence along side of a physical creation. You are a spiritual person now, do you exist beside yourself in two different creations?

I have currently come to the heavenly Jerusalem, just like Hebrews 12:22 says. If you haven’t come to it yet, then I can understand why you might not accept the heavenly/New Jerusalem exists today.

Your profile says your from Mount Morris. I could claim there is no Mount Morris in this current world and I might be able to convince some people who have never been there but there is absolutely no way I’m going to convince you because you’re in Mount Morris.

I’ve come to the New Jerusalem, the heavenly Jerusalem. There’s no way you’re going to convince me otherwise because that’s where I’m at.

 

[Timtofly]

That’s the same argument people use to insert a gap between week 69 and 70. They claim they read verses pertaining to week 70 and it’s obvious to them a gap has to be inserted.

If I’m not mistaken you have argued in the past against a gap in the 70 weeks by claiming there are no gaps anywhere else in the Bible. For the record, are you admitting the Bible does have time gaps that need to be inserted?


lol, it means they recognize Jesus as the Messiah, which doesn’t require a physical resurrection. Before you became a Christian you were dead in your trespasses and sins, right?


Yes it is talking about spirituality dead people else you agree with placing gaps in the Bible.

John doesn’t say he sees the souls of those who have been physically killed, that’s your assumption. It says they were beheaded <3990> which means to cut off with an ax, it doesn’t necessarily mean to be physically killed.

Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

The Jews who kept observing the old covenant were beheaded in that they cut off their Messiah.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, …

Your argument expresses the point: God literally rewards those who are wicked.

So wicked Jews are cut off for being disobedient, but then rewarded eventually, just because?

You believe this just to avoid a physical death, and physical resurrection?

 

[Timtofly]

That helps us determine the timing of the thosuand years, but Premils don't seem to want to acknowledge this.

No, because Jesus has been reigning since creation week. So, was the millennium prior to the Flood? The sons of God were ruling and reigning with Christ for thousands of years after creation week.

The timing of Revelation 20 is immediately after Revelation 19, but Amil don't seem to understand the point in time when these humans were actually beheaded. Amil may as well argue the sons of God were beheaded throughout history even before the Flood.

Is being beheaded some phrase describing spiritual purity?

 

[Timtofly]

I would ask you read chapter 20 to answer that question.

SDA teaching is the furthest interpretation from the actual words of Revelation 20. Can you quote from the SDA Bible that changes the actual words to emphasize your point?

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 20:5 says “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished”. The thousand years are finished when Satan is loosed, right?

The point is not about your "gap theory". The point is they cannot receive the first resurrection during the thousand years. Some will never receive eternal life (first resurrection), ever.

 

[Timtofly]

The thousand years are finished when Satan is loosed.

Satan's release is not the trigger that states the thousands years are over. The thousand years are over, because that is how time works. You could add a gap of 20 days between the end of the thousand years, and Satan's literal release, since you are making a big deal about gaps.

The point is Satan will not be released during the thousand years. This gap argument is pointless, as the point is about what happens during the millennium and not after the millennium. Satan is bound during, and possibly some time after. But the only precise time given in Scripture are the 6 days of creation. When has anything else happened at the split second, it was said to happen?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, because Jesus has been reigning since creation week.

No, He hasn't. I'm talking about Jesus in His humanity here just to be clear. I know He is God and has always existed, also, but He didn't begin to reign as both God and man until after His resurrection. Did He say this since during creation week?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Also, the timing of Revelation 20:6 correlates with the timing of Christ's followers being made priests of God and of Christ. When did that begin to occur? According to 1 Peter 2:9 and Revelation 1:5-6, that began to occur long ago right after Christ's resurrection. Scripture says that we ARE "a royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9) and that Jesus "HAS MADE" us a kingdom of priests of God (Rev 1:5-6), so that should tell you something about the timing of Revelation 20:6 if you care about interpreting scripture with scripture.

The timing of Revelation 20 is immediately after Revelation 19, but Amil don't seem to understand the point in time when these humans were actually beheaded. Amil may as well argue the sons of God were beheaded throughout history even before the Flood.

Do you think that anyone takes you seriously when you say nonsense like this? I hope not. Because no one does.

 

[Timtofly]

If I remember correctly you think nobody will be deceived in any way, shape, or form during a future millennium and you appear to have Gog and Magog being something literal that people are going to be aware of. If your view is correct then perhaps a conversation in the millennium might go like this …



Person 1) hey, how’s it going?

Person 2) good, you know it’s been 999 years and this is day 365, Satan is going to be loosed tomorrow.

Person 1) yea, I know, I’m a Gogite so I’m going to be deceived tomorrow.

Person 2) wow, I’m a Magogite, I’m going to be deceived tomorrow too.

Person 1) I’ve been looking at the breadth of the earth trying to decide where I want to be when the fire comes down and devours me.

Person 2) there’s a nice place over on the east side of Jerusalem that I have my eye on, that’s where I’d like to be when I get devoured.

Person 1) Ok, well it’s the last day for us not to be deceived, it’s been a good 1,000 years, it’s too bad it has to end this way for us.

Person 2) yea, I know, I wish there was something we could do but since we can’t change the fact that we are Gog and Magog, we’re gonna get burned to a crisp.

How do you know what people a thousand years from now can know?

Since they have the Word in the flesh (Jesus Christ) on the earth, why would they have Bibles?

Gog will not be a literal physical nation of that name. Satan deceived Eve. Was Eve Gog, and Magog?

The term Gog and Magog just means there will be thousands of people from the last 2 or 3 generations on the earth, without a nation to call home. And listening to Satan will be easier than listening to Jesus ruling from Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

It does speak of the resurrection of damnation though

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

They leave sheol. That is a resurrection, not how.

Do you think every resurrection mentioned in Scripture is permanent? Those going into the LOF will not be going back to sheol, as it will also be cast into the LOF. If you want to be physically technical, the place they just left is still with them in the LOF. So did they actually leave sheol in a physical body, as they still will not strictly need one in the LOF?

I am not arguing over if they have a physical body or not. They may very well have one now in sheol, because the LOF is different than the location sheol is in now.

The point is they now have eternal damnation, while some currently in sheol will obtain eternal life without sin and death, after being in sheol for thousands of years.

Do you think this verse should include those in Christ who already have eternal life? Do they get a second eternal life?

Why are you placing currently redeemed people back into a state of not being redeemed?

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, we Christians are alive spiritually in Christ, born again. Our souls have been "redeemed". Our bodies have yet to be "redeemed" though.

We are in our natural bodies, that will eventually die. Unless, the rapture/resurrection event should take place before then.

The time will come when our natural bodies will be "redeemed" from their corruptible state into their everlasting eternal incorruptible state in the rapture/resurrected event. Called the blessed hope.

Does this apply to those currently alive in heaven, or are they physically buried up there as well?

No redeemed person will return to the dust to grab that old Adamic physical body. That is the point Satan has deceived the church with for millennia.

The time of redemption started at the Cross, and for Lazarus a few weeks prior. Lazarus already had the permanent incorruptible physical body, all in Paradise have enjoyed every moment they have spent in Paradise. The thief on the Cross was redeemed that day, and entered Paradise, that day.

The blessed hope has already happened to those with eternal life in heaven. The day of redemption is when the soul leaves this flesh, for God's permanent eternal life.

 

[Timtofly]

From Gods perspective that person may or may not be one of His elect. Only God truly knows the heart. A person can think they are one of His elect while in reality they are not, they might be told “I never knew you”.

All of humanity are God's elect, until they are cast into the LOF.

God does currently know every one. No one has been cast into the LOF.

How can you say that God currently has lack of knowledge? That verse can not be applied until that point the dead stand before God. Only then can God have that "lack of knowledge".

From God's perspective all are His elect, until they receive eternal damnation, that resurrection you claim is physical into the LOF. You are transposing your limited knowledge and understanding onto God, telling Him what He knows or does not know.

Now you can accuse me of the same thing. But at least I keep it in context, and not making things up like saying there are only a limited amount of elect in the world and He currently does not know those, if they are not elect.

God does know who will be cast into the LOF. So that contradicts your point, God never knew them.

The point seems to imply that at the point of the GWT Judgment, for the vast majority, it will be that God never knew them, because they never let God into their lives, and they never knew God as He truly is, either. There was no relationship while they were physically alive, and none, thereafter. Not that they were never the elect. That is a human jump in logic, that contradicts John 3:16 and 2 Peter 3:9

If God is not willing that any perish, why is there even a LOF? Which point is true?

The only perspective that declares limited election as being redeemed by God, is the sinful human perspective. The Cross redeemed all, is the view from God's perspective. The Cross is foolishness from man's perspective. By extension, many think only a few are elect. When, in fact, the elect covers every descendant of Adam and Eve, even Esau and Judas Iscariot.

The whole point is that "being spiritually alive" is a human theological construct that has no basis in Scripture nor reality. It is only some thought that makes people feel good about their sinful condition.

Paul says there is a war between our nature and the Holy Spirit. People should fully understand when they are being obedient to the Holy Spirit, and it will be evident, not some thought process to make us feel good.

But we have eternal life now, not something we receive at a future physical resurrection, that you claim is a spiritual concept, and not physical at all, called the first resurrection in Revelation 20 by John.

Eternal life is the current reality that you call being spiritually alive. The first resurrection is a only a future physical resurrection, that will never happen to those in Christ, because contrary to human understanding, those in Christ, will not physically die, nor spiritually die ever. John 11:25-26

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

We only leave this corruption, and immediately put on incorruption. Not a thousand years from now, nor a billion years from now. That was true that Day, not some future reality.

We were already spiritually dead, and still are, as we are separated from our spirit. All of Adam and Eve's offspring are born spiritually dead, separated from their spirit. We don't get our spirit, and then die again. Some never get their spirit until they are cast into the LOF. We are spiritually alive when we are obedient to the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the second birth into God's family. That is made possible by simply living and believing in Jesus Christ. And it will be evident when that is a reality, because we will have that relationship with God, that is declared by God at the GWT Judgment to many who never had that relationship.

This first and second resurrection nonsense has to go. There is no "spiritual resurrection". The first resurrection is physical, and pertains to those who need it, who are not in Christ. But those in Christ already have the first resurrection, and it kicks in when the soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh and enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. That is the day of redemption. All who are currently in Paradise, and have been since the Day of the Cross, already experience the first resurrection. Those in Christ, since the Cross have never physically died despite Adam's dead corruptible flesh returning to dust. Jesus said the dead will bury the dead, but He was not of the dead, but of God, and those in Him were not the dead, but of God.