Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[grafted branch]

Here is a part of the narrative for the 144000:
Revelation 7:4-8

My view of the 144,000 is largely supported by Revelation 7:1-4, I think it gives a clearer picture of the timeframe that’s in view.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

In this verse the angels are exerting effort to prevent the wind from blowing on the earth.



Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Another angel cried to the angels in verse 1 which are described as “given” to hurt the earth. Which means the lack of wind is what caused the hurt.



Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The angels in verse 1 are commanded not to hurt the earth, which means they were no longer allowed to prevent the wind from blowing until the servants of God are sealed.



Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The number that were (as in past tense) sealed were 144,000. That is 144,000 were sealed while the wind didn’t blow. The word “were sealed” is <4972> and is in the aorist tense which defined as … a past tense of Greek verbs, denoting an action without indicating whether completed, continued, or repeated.

What this means is the 144,000 were already sealed when John wrote Revelation and verse 3 tells us the sealing would continue.



My conclusion is this … at Pentecost a sound from heaven as a mighty rushing wind filled all the house where they were sitting. The 144,000 were sealed under the old covenant which is why they are seen as being sealed from the various tribes. After this in Revelation 7:9 there is a great multitude which can’t be numbered from every nation and tongue. These are sealed after Pentecost.

 

[grafted branch]

Satan’s little season in 70ad?! LOL. No wondered you were trying To apply the rest of the dead to the Jews in the first century. Totally mess up.

Answer the questions:

1.) when did Satan bind?
2.) when did the first resurrection begin?
3.) when did Satan got loosen from bottomless pit?
4.) when was the thousand years?
5.) How long was Satan’s short season last? Month and year.

1.) Satan was bound at the cross.

2.) at the cross.

3.) after the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven.

4.) from the the cross to the preaching, 2 to 3.

5.) I’m not certain but we know it was short.

 

[CTK]

My view of the 144,000 is largely supported by Revelation 7:1-4, I think it gives a clearer picture of the timeframe that’s in view.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

In this verse the angels are exerting effort to prevent the wind from blowing on the earth.



Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Another angel cried to the angels in verse 1 which are described as “given” to hurt the earth. Which means the lack of wind is what caused the hurt.



Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The angels in verse 1 are commanded not to hurt the earth, which means they were no longer allowed to prevent the wind from blowing until the servants of God are sealed.



Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The number that were (as in past tense) sealed were 144,000. That is 144,000 were sealed while the wind didn’t blow. The word “were sealed” is <4972> and is in the aorist tense which defined as … a past tense of Greek verbs, denoting an action without indicating whether completed, continued, or repeated.

What this means is the 144,000 were already sealed when John wrote Revelation and verse 3 tells us the sealing would continue.



My conclusion is this … at Pentecost a sound from heaven as a mighty rushing wind filled all the house where they were sitting. The 144,000 were sealed under the old covenant which is why they are seen as being sealed from the various tribes. After this in Revelation 7:9 there is a great multitude which can’t be numbered from every nation and tongue. These are sealed after Pentecost.

Ok and thanks... I think I understand your interpretation. I would ask that you might take a look at chapter 6:16- which discusses the 6th seal and the timing of it... also, in 7:1 when it continues with, " 1 After these things I saw four angels...."

Revelation is very complicated - we are switching between heavenly and earthly realms, symbolic language, looking backwards many times as if things happened, looking forward to reveal what will come to pass.... not easy. But I would ask that you consider that the Book of Daniel covered the time from Babylon to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (3.5 years after the cross, and then a full discussion of the period from the cross to when the little horn (papacy) would sit atop the 4th beast kingdom - chapter 11), Revelation then picks up from the cross to the end of time but it does not focus on the kingdoms but the church going forward. ...Again, just my interpretations.

 

[TribulationSigns]

1.) Satan was bound at the cross.

Right.

2.) at the cross.

Right.

3.) after the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven.

Wrong.

Satan was bound until all Elect are secured by the testimony of Two Witnesses:

Rev 7:2-4
(2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
(3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
(4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 11:7-8
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
The Two Witnesses are Saints who have recieved power to preach the Salvation Gospel for 1,260 days which is a spiritual period of time until the Last Elect God want to seal has been sealed, THEN Satan will come out of the bottomless pit.

4.) from the the cross to the preaching, 2 to 3.

Actually, Satan is bound for a "Thousand Years," starting from Pentecost, when the first Elect were sealed by the Holy Spirit after the Cross, until the Last Elect are secured near the end times. It is essential to understand that the focus is on building the Church before Satan can be loosed. While we do not know exactly when the Last Elect will be secured or when Satan was loosed, we can recognize the signs that indicate apostasy and the desolation of the Church, which has become spiritually akin to Egypt and Sodom.

5.) I’m not certain but we know it was short.

Satan is loosening from the last elect being secured to the Second Coming, where Satan can sit in the church - a period of Great Tribulation "FOR" the Saints, not the world. Therefore, it did not take place in the first century.

 

[grafted branch]

Ok and thanks... I think I understand your interpretation. I would ask that you might take a look at chapter 6:16- which discusses the 6th seal and the timing of it... also, in 7:1 when it continues with, " 1 After these things I saw four angels...."

Revelation is very complicated - we are switching between heavenly and earthly realms, symbolic language, looking backwards many times as if things happened, looking forward to reveal what will come to pass.... not easy. But I would ask that you consider that the Book of Daniel covered the time from Babylon to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (3.5 years after the cross, and then a full discussion of the period from the cross to when the little horn (papacy) would sit atop the 4th beast kingdom - chapter 11), Revelation then picks up from the cross to the end of time but it does not focus on the kingdoms but the church going forward. ...Again, just my interpretations.

I think our differences in how we interpret Revelation might stem from how Revelation 1:19 is viewed.

In Revelation 1:19 John is told to Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. I think in the series of visions that John recorded, most of them contain all three elements. That is, things that were in the past, things that are in the present, and things which would be in the future. I would say those visions that contain all three elements are not to be interpreted as strictly future events.

Those three elements can be easily seen, for example, in Revelation 17 where the beast is said to be “was, is not, and shall ascend”. Likewise, in Revelation 7, I see the three elements of past, present, and future. It starts out with the phrase “after these things”, which I take to mean a new vision. The Revelation 7 vision takes place within the seven seals which also contain the three elements themselves but the phrase “after these things” is a break of some kind else the phrase is meaningless if it just means the next thing that takes place since that has been how the first six seals are viewed already.

How are you interpreting Revelation 1:19? How do you see it being applied to the rest of the book?

 

[CTK]

I think our differences in how we interpret Revelation might stem from how Revelation 1:19 is viewed.

In Revelation 1:19 John is told to Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. I think in the series of visions that John recorded, most of them contain all three elements. That is, things that were in the past, things that are in the present, and things which would be in the future. I would say those visions that contain all three elements are not to be interpreted as strictly future events.

Those three elements can be easily seen, for example, in Revelation 17 where the beast is said to be “was, is not, and shall ascend”. Likewise, in Revelation 7, I see the three elements of past, present, and future. It starts out with the phrase “after these things”, which I take to mean a new vision. The Revelation 7 vision takes place within the seven seals which also contain the three elements themselves but the phrase “after these things” is a break of some kind else the phrase is meaningless if it just means the next thing that takes place since that has been how the first six seals are viewed already.

How are you interpreting Revelation 1:19? How do you see it being applied to the rest of the book?

I am not sure the answer will be found in chapter 1. I would ask that you consider when the 6 seals might take place and also consider the listing of the 12 tribes in chapter 7... Revelation is not going back to the time of Christ... the cross is the beginning of the church and that is where Revelation spends the entire second and third chapters .... after the revealing and identification of God in chapter 1.

Chapter 1 - Identification of God - in all three forms - and that includes of course Jesus as the Messiah. --- Revelation begins with all three of the Godhead --- after the cross,

Chapters 2 and 3 - God is now speaking of the One church created by Jesua after the cross. He is not only willing to identify the weaknesses, strengths, etc. found in His church (by separately addressing them one at a time), but He is also able to show how each of t he 7 churches wil come to be during the next 2000 years.... so it certainly is forward thinking... not looking back...

Chapters 4 and 5 - Now God reveals His throne room and tells us about the Scroll that describes the end times,

Chapters 6 - God opens the seals and reveals the adversary (little horn or papacy system) that goes against Him, His church and His people. Just like the teaching method in the earlier chapters, He reveals this adversary in the 4 different ways he will go against God (the 4 horesmen). Again, forward looking - the little horn did not come to full power until another 400 years after the death of John,

Chapter 7 - God revealed the adversary that would attack His people, His church, etc. in chapter 6, and now in this chapter He will reveal the 144000 who will come to go against the adversary - and this will occur at the end of time - last 3.5 years before He returns.

So, I am not sure how you might view these major events in the above chapters in Revelation, but I see them clearly as all events after John.... beginning with the church of Ephasus time period....

If I remember correctly, I believe we got on the discussion of when the 144000 would come to be..... Clearly, those Jews who accepted Jesus as their Messiah after the cross (John, Paul, Matthew, etc.) would be identiied in Daniel 2 as "pottery clay" as opposed to the larger group of Jews who would reject Jesus and be identified in Daniel 2 as "ceramic clay." They would indeed go on to establish His church in the first century after the cross, but they are not ever discussed or considered in any way as the 144000 sealed of His chosen people. In fact, they would go out into the GENTILE world to preach the Gospel and only at the time of the end of the Gentiles do I clearly see that God will remove the blindness from the eyes of His people - the remnant at that end time, and identiy as the 144000. Consequently, these 12 tribes will serve at the end of time to counter the adversary identified in chapter 6.

Let me know what you think and why the 144 K arrive or take place in whatever time line you believe.

 

[grafted branch]

I am not sure the answer will be found in chapter 1. I would ask that you consider when the 6 seals might take place and also consider the listing of the 12 tribes in chapter 7... Revelation is not going back to the time of Christ... the cross is the beginning of the church and that is where Revelation spends the entire second and third chapters .... after the revealing and identification of God in chapter 1.

Chapter 1 - Identification of God - in all three forms - and that includes of course Jesus as the Messiah. --- Revelation begins with all three of the Godhead --- after the cross,

Chapters 2 and 3 - God is now speaking of the One church created by Jesua after the cross. He is not only willing to identify the weaknesses, strengths, etc. found in His church (by separately addressing them one at a time), but He is also able to show how each of t he 7 churches wil come to be during the next 2000 years.... so it certainly is forward thinking... not looking back...

Chapters 4 and 5 - Now God reveals His throne room and tells us about the Scroll that describes the end times,

Chapters 6 - God opens the seals and reveals the adversary (little horn or papacy system) that goes against Him, His church and His people. Just like the teaching method in the earlier chapters, He reveals this adversary in the 4 different ways he will go against God (the 4 horesmen). Again, forward looking - the little horn did not come to full power until another 400 years after the death of John,

Chapter 7 - God revealed the adversary that would attack His people, His church, etc. in chapter 6, and now in this chapter He will reveal the 144000 who will come to go against the adversary - and this will occur at the end of time - last 3.5 years before He returns.

So, I am not sure how you might view these major events in the above chapters in Revelation, but I see them clearly as all events after John.... beginning with the church of Ephasus time period....

If I remember correctly, I believe we got on the discussion of when the 144000 would come to be..... Clearly, those Jews who accepted Jesus as their Messiah after the cross (John, Paul, Matthew, etc.) would be identiied in Daniel 2 as "pottery clay" as opposed to the larger group of Jews who would reject Jesus and be identified in Daniel 2 as "ceramic clay." They would indeed go on to establish His church in the first century after the cross, but they are not ever discussed or considered in any way as the 144000 sealed of His chosen people. In fact, they would go out into the GENTILE world to preach the Gospel and only at the time of the end of the Gentiles do I clearly see that God will remove the blindness from the eyes of His people - the remnant at that end time, and identiy as the 144000. Consequently, these 12 tribes will serve at the end of time to counter the adversary identified in chapter 6.

Let me know what you think and why the 144 K arrive or take place in whatever time line you believe.

I’m in agreement for the most part with your view on the first 5 chapters, the chapter 6 seals is where we go in different directions.


A summary of my view on the seals is that the first seal is Christ in His first coming going forth to conquer death.

Second seal is Christ taking peace from the earth, Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Third seal is man being weighed in the balance and a price is set that needs to be payed without hurting the Holy Spirit nor the cup of the wine of His wrath. The voice that speaks these words from the midst of the four beasts is answering Jesus’s prayer in Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Fourth seal is Jesus becoming sin for us, power is given to the barley (3/4 in the third seal) over the wheat (1/4 in the third seal) to kill them.

Fifth seal has the Old Testament believers that were resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 which were slain by Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37)they are told to rest until the killing happening at the fourth seal is fulfilled.

Sixth seal takes place on the Daughters of Jerusalem and their children. Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. This would’ve had to have happened within a hundred years or less of when Jesus spoke those words, so I place the sixth seal in 70AD.



My timeline looks like this. Seals 1-4 take place while Jesus is on earth (which is related to the horsemen and four beasts saying “come and see”). Seal 5 takes place just after the cross, seal 6 takes place in 70AD after a period of tribulation.

Chapter 7 looks back to just after the cross (seal 5) equating those under the altar with 144,000, then gives us the results of those going through the tribulation (up to seal 6) as a great multitude clothed in white robes.



So I see the 144,000 as the resurrected saints in Matthew 27:52-53 going into Jerusalem and being seen by many, then meeting up with Jesus on mount Sion and going to heaven from there. They are called redeemed first fruits that follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes, which I believe was to heaven just after He arose.

Hopefully you can see what my view is on this, I’ve tried to give as brief a summary as I could, I have pages and pages of notes on all this.

 

[CTK]

I’m in agreement for the most part with your view on the first 5 chapters, the chapter 6 seals is where we go in different directions.


A summary of my view on the seals is that the first seal is Christ in His first coming going forth to conquer death.

Second seal is Christ taking peace from the earth, Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Third seal is man being weighed in the balance and a price is set that needs to be payed without hurting the Holy Spirit nor the cup of the wine of His wrath. The voice that speaks these words from the midst of the four beasts is answering Jesus’s prayer in Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Fourth seal is Jesus becoming sin for us, power is given to the barley (3/4 in the third seal) over the wheat (1/4 in the third seal) to kill them.

Fifth seal has the Old Testament believers that were resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 which were slain by Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37)they are told to rest until the killing happening at the fourth seal is fulfilled.

Sixth seal takes place on the Daughters of Jerusalem and their children. Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. This would’ve had to have happened within a hundred years or less of when Jesus spoke those words, so I place the sixth seal in 70AD.



My timeline looks like this. Seals 1-4 take place while Jesus is on earth (which is related to the horsemen and four beasts saying “come and see”). Seal 5 takes place just after the cross, seal 6 takes place in 70AD after a period of tribulation.

Chapter 7 looks back to just after the cross (seal 5) equating those under the altar with 144,000, then gives us the results of those going through the tribulation (up to seal 6) as a great multitude clothed in white robes.



So I see the 144,000 as the resurrected saints in Matthew 27:52-53 going into Jerusalem and being seen by many, then meeting up with Jesus on mount Sion and going to heaven from there. They are called redeemed first fruits that follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes, which I believe was to heaven just after He arose.

Hopefully you can see what my view is on this, I’ve tried to give as brief a summary as I could, I have pages and pages of notes on all this.

​

Here is a part of the narrative prepared for the four horsemen... we can discuss again in the morning, thanks.

Relationship of 7 churches with 4 horsemen

​

The messages of the seven churches and the visions of the four horsemen in Revelation weave together into a grand and divinely ordered narrative. By examining the horsemen alongside the church periods, we uncover a pattern that is precise, purposeful, and deeply reflective of God’s sovereignty. This alignment reveals that the sequence of events is not random but intentionally orchestrated by God to unfold His redemptive plan in history.

The White Horse: A Conquest Without War

The white horse begins the timeline, aligning with the rise of the papacy to full power during the early period of Thyatira (AD 538–800). The rider carries a bow but no arrow, signifying conquest achieved not through military force but through influence, persuasion, and doctrinal authority. This period saw the papacy extend its dominance across Christendom, consolidating spiritual and political power under a veneer of righteousness. However, this conquest was not of truth and love but of control and dominance, leading to significant shifts in the church’s history. The imagery of the white horse, often associated with victory, takes on a dual meaning here: it symbolizes triumph but also the beginning of corruption within the church. This alignment underscores that the order of events is no accident but part of God’s divine design.

The Red Horse: Conflict and Bloodshed

The red horse follows, symbolizing war and bloodshed during the middle Thyatira period (AD 800–1500s). This was an era marked by the Crusades, the Inquisitions, and widespread conflict carried out in the name of religious authority. The sword in the rider’s hand reflects both literal violence and the spiritual warfare of this time, as the church sought to enforce its doctrines through coercion and suppression. The escalation of conflict during this period highlights the growing misuse of power and the deepening divide between the church’s actions and Christ’s teachings.

The Black Horse: A Famine of Truth

The black horse represents famine—not of physical sustenance but of spiritual truth. This horse aligns with the Sardis period (AD 1500–1700s), a time when the church experienced spiritual stagnation despite the beginnings of the Reformation. While access to Scripture was being restored, much of the church remained entrenched in lifeless traditions. The imagery of weighing wheat and barley for exorbitant prices reflects the spiritual impoverishment caused by the misuse of faith during the prior era, as indulgences and corruption left a legacy of famine for God’s Word. This alignment emphasizes the ongoing consequences of the church’s earlier compromises.

The Pale Horse: Death and Hades

The pale horse brings death and Hades, aligning with the later Sardis period and extending into the Laodicean age (AD 1700s–Present). This horse symbolizes the spiritual deadness and complacency that characterize much of the modern church. The consequences of centuries of compromise and corruption culminate in a church that often appears alive but is inwardly dead. The pale horse’s destructive force serves as a sobering reminder of the ultimate outcome of abandoning true faith and reliance on God. Yet, even here, God’s mercy invites His people to awaken and return to Him.

God’s Perfect Design​

The sequence of the horsemen and their alignment with the church periods reflects God’s perfect design. Each horseman corresponds to a specific stage in the church’s journey through history, revealing the trials, challenges, and consequences of both faithfulness and rebellion.

Intentional Order: The horsemen and churches follow a prophetic sequence that mirrors the progression of church history. The rise of the papacy, the conflicts it spurred, the famine for truth, and the resulting spiritual deadness are all interconnected, revealing God’s hand in shaping events.

Unified Themes: Together, the horsemen and churches tell a cohesive story of God’s sovereignty and the church’s struggles. They highlight His faithfulness to His people amid trials and judgment, emphasizing His ultimate plan for redemption.

Evidence of Divine Sovereignty: The precision with which the horsemen and churches align affirms that this is no coincidence. History has unfolded according to God’s redemptive plan, testifying to His involvement and purpose.

As we reflect on these connections, we are reminded that God’s plan is both precise and purposeful. The trials represented by the horsemen serve to refine and prepare God’s people for His ultimate victory. Each church and each horseman is part of a larger story, one that points to God’s sovereignty, justice, and mercy.

Understanding this alignment strengthens our faith as we see how God’s hand has guided history and will continue to guide His church. It also raises an important question: Why does the timeline of the horsemen begin with the rise of the papacy, leaving the first 500 years of the church without a horseman? This period reflects a foundational phase when the church, under significant persecution and guided by the apostles' teachings, was focused on spreading the Gospel and building a unified faith. However, the alignment of the church with pagan Rome under Constantine began a gradual transition. This shift introduced external influences and compromises, setting the stage for the symbolic arrival of the horsemen. It was during this transitional phase, as the church moved from its apostolic purity toward integration with state power, that the groundwork was laid for the trials and judgments symbolized by the horsemen. The early church’s purity and its foundational mission to spread the Gospel and endure persecution stand in stark contrast to the later challenges of compromise and corruption introduced by the merging of church and state. The absence of a horseman during this time highlights God’s divine timing, allowing the church’s foundation to be firmly established before the symbolic trials and judgments began. This transition aligns perfectly with God’s purpose, illustrating the shift from the church’s early mission to the challenges of maintaining faithfulness in a corrupted world. It also challenges us to remain faithful, knowing that we are part of this unfolding plan. The order and events described in Revelation are not merely symbolic; they are the living testimony of God’s involvement in the past, present, and future of His church.

 

[grafted branch]

The Black Horse: A Famine of Truth

The black horse represents famine—not of physical sustenance but of spiritual truth. This horse aligns with the Sardis period (AD 1500–1700s), a time when the church experienced spiritual stagnation despite the beginnings of the Reformation. While access to Scripture was being restored, much of the church remained entrenched in lifeless traditions. The imagery of weighing wheat and barley for exorbitant prices reflects the spiritual impoverishment caused by the misuse of faith during the prior era, as indulgences and corruption left a legacy of famine for God’s Word. This alignment emphasizes the ongoing consequences of the church’s earlier compromises.

Thanks for sharing your view on the four horsemen. I see you have the third seal representing famine. I’ve looked at that idea and can’t figure out why that would represent famine. The price of wheat and barley is given but those prices most likely actually happened at some point before 301AD when the Emperor Diocletian issued a special edict.

Known as Edictum Diocletiani et Collegarum de Pretiis Rerum Venalium, it was intended to combat the progressive inflation in the Roman Empire by setting maximum prices on more than 1,400 products, slaves or services.

In that document the price of wheat was 100 denarii for about 17 liters and barely was 60 denarii for about 17 liters. According to many commentaries a measure of barley or wheat is about 1 quart and 1 quart is .95 liters. That would mean 1 denarii would buy .17 liters of wheat or less than 1/5 of a quart in 301AD and there was no famine at that time.

Could you explain why you see the third seal representing famine?

 

[CTK]

Thanks for sharing your view on the four horsemen. I see you have the third seal representing famine. I’ve looked at that idea and can’t figure out why that would represent famine. The price of wheat and barley is given but those prices most likely actually happened at some point before 301AD when the Emperor Diocletian issued a special edict.

Known as Edictum Diocletiani et Collegarum de Pretiis Rerum Venalium, it was intended to combat the progressive inflation in the Roman Empire by setting maximum prices on more than 1,400 products, slaves or services.

In that document the price of wheat was 100 denarii for about 17 liters and barely was 60 denarii for about 17 liters. According to many commentaries a measure of barley or wheat is about 1 quart and 1 quart is .95 liters. That would mean 1 denarii would buy .17 liters of wheat or less than 1/5 of a quart in 301AD and there was no famine at that time.

Could you explain why you see the third seal representing famine?

Revelation 6:5-6 (Third seal)

5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

The black horse of the third seal in Revelation 6:5–6 paints a vivid picture of spiritual and institutional corruption during the papacy’s reign. Its rider holds a pair of scales, representing the weighing and transactional treatment of spiritual truths and leadership. The proclamation of "a quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius" highlights the exploitation and manipulation within the medieval church, where sacred matters were often monetized for power and profit. While some interpret this metaphor as referencing famine or economic hardship, it might be understood as reflecting the practice of simony—the buying and selling of church positions. High-ranking roles, symbolized by wheat, required a significant price, while lesser positions, represented by barley, were more affordable. This system corrupted the church’s mission, turning sacred offices into commodities that prioritized wealth and influence over spiritual integrity.

The living creature’s role in calling John to "come and see" aligns with their symbolic representation as the renewed Jewish witnesses of the end times, now recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. Their testimony could expose the depth of corruption within the church and call for a return to genuine faith and leadership. The scales held by the rider emphasize the church’s deviation from truth, as spiritual matters were weighed and sold rather than freely shared according to God’s Word. The voice calling out during this seal appears to serve as an alert to draw attention to the depth of the church’s corruption. It likely indicts the church leadership for their failure to uphold their spiritual calling and highlights the disparity between their actions and the gospel they were entrusted to preach. This period precedes the Protestant Reformation (1517 AD onward), and the alert could be seen as a precursor to the prophetic voices of reformers like Martin Luther, John Wycliffe, and others who would rise to challenge these abuses.

The audience for this alert may have been multifaceted. It likely included the faithful remnant within the church who were unaware of the full extent of the corruption, encouraging them to resist and take action. It may also have been aimed at future reformers, serving as an early call to those who would later confront the church’s failings. Additionally, the oppressed and exploited, who suffered under the church’s corrupt systems, might have found solace in hearing that their plight had not gone unnoticed by God. This voice is significant not only for its message but for the fact that it is spoken by a living creature, suggesting the importance of this moment in the prophetic timeline. The alert serves as both an exposure of corruption and a preparatory call for the reform and upheaval that would come. This moment aligns with God’s historical pattern of raising voices to call out injustice, as seen with the prophets in the Old Testament, and sets the stage for the eventual Protestant Reformation, when these abuses would be directly confronted and challenged.

The command not to harm the oil and wine is a significant counterpoint, symbolizing God’s preservation of true spiritual anointing (oil) and the purity of Christ’s redemptive work (wine). Despite the church’s corruption, God ensures that His Spirit and salvation remain untouched, providing hope and truth for those who genuinely seek Him. In the broader context of the seals, the black horse follows the red horse’s depiction of violence and persecution. Together, they show the progression from the church’s outward aggression to its inward corruption. Yet, even amid this decline, God’s Spirit and the message of salvation remain steadfast, reminding believers of the unshakable foundation of His truth.

 

[grafted branch]

Revelation 6:5-6 (Third seal)

5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

The black horse of the third seal in Revelation 6:5–6 paints a vivid picture of spiritual and institutional corruption during the papacy’s reign. Its rider holds a pair of scales, representing the weighing and transactional treatment of spiritual truths and leadership. The proclamation of "a quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius" highlights the exploitation and manipulation within the medieval church, where sacred matters were often monetized for power and profit. While some interpret this metaphor as referencing famine or economic hardship, it might be understood as reflecting the practice of simony—the buying and selling of church positions. High-ranking roles, symbolized by wheat, required a significant price, while lesser positions, represented by barley, were more affordable. This system corrupted the church’s mission, turning sacred offices into commodities that prioritized wealth and influence over spiritual integrity.

The living creature’s role in calling John to "come and see" aligns with their symbolic representation as the renewed Jewish witnesses of the end times, now recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. Their testimony could expose the depth of corruption within the church and call for a return to genuine faith and leadership. The scales held by the rider emphasize the church’s deviation from truth, as spiritual matters were weighed and sold rather than freely shared according to God’s Word. The voice calling out during this seal appears to serve as an alert to draw attention to the depth of the church’s corruption. It likely indicts the church leadership for their failure to uphold their spiritual calling and highlights the disparity between their actions and the gospel they were entrusted to preach. This period precedes the Protestant Reformation (1517 AD onward), and the alert could be seen as a precursor to the prophetic voices of reformers like Martin Luther, John Wycliffe, and others who would rise to challenge these abuses.

The audience for this alert may have been multifaceted. It likely included the faithful remnant within the church who were unaware of the full extent of the corruption, encouraging them to resist and take action. It may also have been aimed at future reformers, serving as an early call to those who would later confront the church’s failings. Additionally, the oppressed and exploited, who suffered under the church’s corrupt systems, might have found solace in hearing that their plight had not gone unnoticed by God. This voice is significant not only for its message but for the fact that it is spoken by a living creature, suggesting the importance of this moment in the prophetic timeline. The alert serves as both an exposure of corruption and a preparatory call for the reform and upheaval that would come. This moment aligns with God’s historical pattern of raising voices to call out injustice, as seen with the prophets in the Old Testament, and sets the stage for the eventual Protestant Reformation, when these abuses would be directly confronted and challenged.

The command not to harm the oil and wine is a significant counterpoint, symbolizing God’s preservation of true spiritual anointing (oil) and the purity of Christ’s redemptive work (wine). Despite the church’s corruption, God ensures that His Spirit and salvation remain untouched, providing hope and truth for those who genuinely seek Him. In the broader context of the seals, the black horse follows the red horse’s depiction of violence and persecution. Together, they show the progression from the church’s outward aggression to its inward corruption. Yet, even amid this decline, God’s Spirit and the message of salvation remain steadfast, reminding believers of the unshakable foundation of His truth.

Ok, thanks for the explanation. I personally don’t think a literal fulfillment of one denarius for a quart of wheat or three denarius for a quarter of barley matters because I don’t interpret that verse in a literal manner. Historically though it appears the literal fulfillment took place at some time in the third century with inflation being the culprit. It appears to me that efforts were implemented to control the situation with no documentation on exploitation or manipulation at that time.

Anyway, we are taking very different paths on how we interpret these things. I do appreciate you letting me look at your view on this.

 

[CTK]

Ok, thanks for the explanation. I personally don’t think a literal fulfillment of one denarius for a quart of wheat or three denarius for a quarter of barley matters because I don’t interpret that verse in a literal manner. Historically though it appears the literal fulfillment took place at some time in the third century with inflation being the culprit. It appears to me that efforts were implemented to control the situation with no documentation on exploitation or manipulation at that time.

Anyway, we are taking very different paths on how we interpret these things. I do appreciate you letting me look at your view on this.

Thanks. After going through Revelation a few times, it became apparent God is not speaking about literal events but spiritual events and provides a strong symbolic picture for everything that relates to His plan of salvation. He is not speaking about human wars, human famine that the world has experience since time began, or million man armies, etc., It is all about our salvation - will we follow the Lamb or the false prophet and teachings of the little horn that will prevent us from being with Him for eternity. There is no question the RCC prevented the publc from having access to the Bible - it was at one time literally chained up so it could only be accessed at that point. Further, it was written in Latin and therefore must be interpreted by the church. The famine is not about food, that is a methaphor for His Word. They guarded and gave out His Word sparingly and with their interpretation.... And should one go against them and their interpretation... well. it was not going to be a good day for you. They have been guilty of some 50 million murders - in the name of God ---- Inquisitions, Crusades, dissension, etc. But everyone is certainly entitied to their own interpretations.... and opportunity to express their views. Daniel and Revelation are not easy books to unpack....

 

[CTK]

Ok, thanks for the explanation. I personally don’t think a literal fulfillment of one denarius for a quart of wheat or three denarius for a quarter of barley matters because I don’t interpret that verse in a literal manner. Historically though it appears the literal fulfillment took place at some time in the third century with inflation being the culprit. It appears to me that efforts were implemented to control the situation with no documentation on exploitation or manipulation at that time.

Anyway, we are taking very different paths on how we interpret these things. I do appreciate you letting me look at your view on this.

Are there any other topics in Revelation you might want to discuss, or go back to?

 

[grafted branch]

Are there any other topics in Revelation you might want to discuss, or go back to?

I can think of a couple of things that I would like to get your opinion on, to start with there’s the idea of symmetry between Jesus and Satan.

Years ago someone, who was Amil, claimed there is a symmetry between Jesus and Satan, in regard to where they are and in the type of access they have.

This view, as I remember it, is both Jesus and Satan had access to heaven and earth, then we see both Jesus and Satan on earth as seen when Jesus is tempted by Satan. Then the time comes when both Jesus and Satan are seen as part man part spirit (Satan enters Judas being symmetrical in a way to Jesus being both man and God).

Both Jesus and Judas die, leaving Satan in Sheol/bottomless pit while Jesus is raised from the dead and goes to heaven. Currently the symmetry would be Jesus in heaven and Satan in the bottomless pit, at a future point the symmetry will be Satan released from and leave the pit while Christ leaves heaven and the return of Christ happens. This then will be followed by the symmetry of Christ in new heaven new earth and Satan in the lake of fire.

Ok, I know this view is Amil which is far from your view on the millennium and the binding of Satan but what are your thoughts on symmetry? Is it something that might fit your view? This is one of those things that I haven’t heard anyone else bring up but it does seem to have some merit.

So what are your thoughts on symmetry, is it something that is a possibility or do you see verses that would clearly teach against this idea?

 

[CTK]

I can think of a couple of things that I would like to get your opinion on, to start with there’s the idea of symmetry between Jesus and Satan.

Years ago someone, who was Amil, claimed there is a symmetry between Jesus and Satan, in regard to where they are and in the type of access they have.

This view, as I remember it, is both Jesus and Satan had access to heaven and earth, then we see both Jesus and Satan on earth as seen when Jesus is tempted by Satan. Then the time comes when both Jesus and Satan are seen as part man part spirit (Satan enters Judas being symmetrical in a way to Jesus being both man and God).

I have not studied this but it does appear that Satan was cast down out of heaven in Revelation 12:7-12. It might appear he had access to heaven and the earth up to the time of the cross. When Jesus returned to heaven, he was cast down to earth and no longer had the ability to acuse anyone to God thereafter.

Both Jesus and Judas die, leaving Satan in Sheol/bottomless pit while Jesus is raised from the dead and goes to heaven. Currently the symmetry would be Jesus in heaven and Satan in the bottomless pit, at a future point the symmetry will be Satan released from and leave the pit while Christ leaves heaven and the return of Christ happens. This then will be followed by the symmetry of Christ in new heaven new earth and Satan in the lake of fire.

Again, not studied this but I don't believe Satan was cast into the abyss until Revelation 20:3 - where he would stay for 1000 years. After the millenium, he will be released for a short period and then thrown into the lake of fire.

Ok, I know this view is Amil which is far from your view on the millennium and the binding of Satan but what are your thoughts on symmetry? Is it something that might fit your view? This is one of those things that I haven’t heard anyone else bring up but it does seem to have some merit.

So what are your thoughts on symmetry, is it something that is a possibility or do you see verses that would clearly teach against this idea?

 

[grafted branch]

I have not studied this but it does appear that Satan was cast down out of heaven in Revelation 12:7-12. It might appear he had access to heaven and the earth up to the time of the cross. When Jesus returned to heaven, he was cast down to earth and no longer had the ability to acuse anyone to God thereafter.


Again, not studied this but I don't believe Satan was cast into the abyss until Revelation 20:3 - where he would stay for 1000 years. After the millenium, he will be released for a short period and then thrown into the lake of fire.

Ok, thanks for your opinion on symmetry. The other thing I would like to get your thoughts on is the Revelation 12 repeating pattern.

Vs 4 Stars of heaven cast to earth
Vs 4 devour her child
Vs 6 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 7 war in heaven between dragon and Michael
Vs 9 Dragon cast out of heaven to the earth
Vs 13 persecuted the woman
Vs 14 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 17 dragon makes war

The pattern is cast out, persecution, fleeing, and war.

I think most people place the initial fleeing in verse 6 as the flight of Mary and Joseph to Egypt. It’s possible then to extrapolate that into a repeating pattern between Mary’s flight and the AOD fleeing; saying this …

Matthew 24:16 let them in Judea flee. Matthew 2:1 Jesus is born Bethlehem of Judea.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house. Matthew 2:13 the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise. Joseph could’ve been sleeping on the housetop when he had the angel appear to him in the dream.

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. The word “his” can be either male or female. Matthew 2:13 and take the young child and his mother. Mary could’ve been gleaning in a field at evening time, with the baby Jesus being with either Joseph or Mary.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mary was no longer pregnant but had just recently given birth and was nursing when they fled to Egypt, which has mountains to which they could’ve fled to.

Ok, the Revelation 12 pattern is important and it could be showing that Mary’s flight and the AOD’s flight are each seen in Revelation 12.

What are your thoughts on the Revelation 12 pattern?

 

[CTK]

Ok, thanks for your opinion on symmetry. The other thing I would like to get your thoughts on is the Revelation 12 repeating pattern.

Vs 4 Stars of heaven cast to earth

The "stars of heaven" symbolize the fallen angels who were cast out of heaven alongside Satan after his rebellion. Their being "thrown to the earth" signifies their expulsion from their heavenly positions and their alignment with Satan's opposition to God and His purposes.

Isaiah 14:12-14, in describing Lucifer’s fall, uses imagery of a star falling from heaven, further connecting stars to angelic beings.

Luke 10:18 records Jesus saying, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven," supporting the idea of a heavenly rebellion and subsequent expulsion.

Vs 4 devour her chil

Satan's attempt to "devour the child" symbolizes his overarching goal to oppose God's work of salvation through Jesus. This includes not only the attempt to kill Jesus at His birth but also the temptation in the wilderness (Matthew 4:1-11), the opposition during His ministry, and ultimately His crucifixion (though this, paradoxically, became the means of victory over Satan).

• he woman is often interpreted as a symbol of God's people or Israel, through whom the Messiah (Jesus) was born.
• The child represents Jesus Christ, who is described later in Revelation 12:5 as "a male child, who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron," a clear reference to the Messianic prophecy in Psalm 2:9.

Vs 6 woman fled into wilderness

After the birth and ascension of the Messiah (as described in the previous verses), the focus shifts to the protection and preservation of the woman—God’s people—during a time of persecution. Here, it symbolizes the spiritual and physical separation of God's people from the world, where God sustains them through a period of trial and persecution.

After the "time of the Gentiles," God will remove the blindness from their eyes and they will be sent out into the world, just as Paul did, and preach the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus for the last 3.5 years or 1260 days.

Vs 7 war in heaven between dragon and Michael

Revelation 12:1-9 provides a narrative that alternates between events on earth and in heaven, offering a comprehensive view of the conflict between God and Satan. The first six verses focus on the earthly perspective, where the woman (Israel) gives birth to the male child (Jesus), symbolizing the Messiah’s arrival. The dragon (Satan) attempts to destroy the child, reflecting his earthly efforts to thwart God’s redemptive plan, such as Herod’s attempt to kill the infant Jesus. Despite these attempts, the male child ascends to heaven, marking His victory and authority, while the woman flees into the wilderness, where God protects and sustains her. The narrative then shifts in verses 7-9 to the heavenly perspective, recounting the war in heaven between Michael and his angels and the dragon and his forces. This spiritual battle ends with Satan’s defeat and his permanent expulsion from heaven, limiting his access to accuse God’s people and driving his wrath toward the earth. By presenting these two perspectives, Revelation 12 ties the events of heaven and earth together, showing how Satan’s earthly actions are rooted in his spiritual rebellion and ultimate failure in heaven. This dual focus highlights the interplay between the spiritual and physical realms, emphasizing that the cosmic battle affects all of creation.

Vs 9 Dragon cast out of heaven to the earth

see above.

Vs 13 persecuted the woman

Revelation 12:13 reveals Satan’s intensified wrath following his expulsion from heaven, as he turns his attention to the woman who gave birth to the male child. The woman, representing Israel, has always been central to God’s plan of redemption, and Satan’s pursuit of her underscores his ongoing efforts to thwart that plan. This verse mirrors the earlier imagery in Revelation 12:4, where the dragon stood before the woman to devour her child, symbolizing Satan’s historical attempts to destroy the Messiah through earthly means, such as Herod’s massacre of infants (Matthew 2:16). Now, having failed to prevent Christ’s mission and with no access to accuse believers in heaven, Satan focuses his fury on Israel, the covenant people, who remain critical to God’s purposes. This relentless pursuit highlights the spiritual battle Israel faces throughout history, particularly in the wake of their dispersion among the Gentile nations post-cross. It also connects to the earlier trumpet judgments in Revelation 8 and 9, where Satan’s corrupting influence is unleashed on the earth, targeting those aligned with God’s truth.

Vs 14 woman fled into wilderness

Revelation 12:14 highlights God’s enduring provision and protection for the woman, symbolizing Israel, as she is "given the two wings of the great eagle" to flee into the wilderness. The phrase "was given" suggests a past event, pointing back to God’s deliverance of Israel at Mt. Sinai. In Exodus 19:4, God declares, "You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself." These wings symbolize God’s divine strength and care, carrying Israel out of bondage and sustaining them during their wilderness journey. This same imagery underscores His ongoing faithfulness to preserve Israel through trials and tribulations throughout history.

Vs 17 dragon makes war

The pattern is cast out, persecution, fleeing, and war.

I think most people place the initial fleeing in verse 6 as the flight of Mary and Joseph to Egypt. It’s possible then to extrapolate that into a repeating pattern between Mary’s flight and the AOD fleeing; saying this …

Matthew 24:16 let them in Judea flee. Matthew 2:1 Jesus is born Bethlehem of Judea.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house. Matthew 2:13 the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise. Joseph could’ve been sleeping on the housetop when he had the angel appear to him in the dream.

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. The word “his” can be either male or female. Matthew 2:13 and take the young child and his mother. Mary could’ve been gleaning in a field at evening time, with the baby Jesus being with either Joseph or Mary.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mary was no longer pregnant but had just recently given birth and was nursing when they fled to Egypt, which has mountains to which they could’ve fled to.

Ok, the Revelation 12 pattern is important and it could be showing that Mary’s flight and the AOD’s flight are each seen in Revelation 12.

What are your thoughts on the Revelation 12 pattern?

 

[CTK]

Ok, thanks for your opinion on symmetry. The other thing I would like to get your thoughts on is the Revelation 12 repeating pattern.

Vs 4 Stars of heaven cast to earth
Vs 4 devour her child
Vs 6 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 7 war in heaven between dragon and Michael
Vs 9 Dragon cast out of heaven to the earth
Vs 13 persecuted the woman
Vs 14 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 17 dragon makes war

Revelation 12:1-17 encapsulates Satan’s relentless efforts to thwart God’s redemptive plan, adapting his focus as history unfolds. From Israel’s earliest days as a nation, symbolized earlier in the chapter by the "trimester growth," Satan concentrated his attacks on their obedience to God’s Word and their commitment to worship the one true God. His goal was to disrupt their covenant relationship and prevent the fulfillment of God’s promises. As the time of the Messiah’s arrival approached, Satan’s strategy shifted to destroying the Messiah Himself, seen in Herod’s attempt to kill the infant Jesus. Despite these efforts, the Messiah was born and fulfilled His mission.

After Jesus’ birth, Satan sought to undermine the woman’s (Israel’s) faith in the Messiah, working to prevent the nation from accepting Him. Tragically, Israel as a whole rejected and crucified their Messiah. Even so, they were left with the uncorrupted Word of God in the Old Testament, preserving their worship of the one true God. Meanwhile, those who accepted Jesus—the "pottery clay," including Paul, John, and the early disciples—went out into the Gentile world, preaching the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Believing he had succeeded in destroying the woman’s salvation through their rejection of the Messiah, Satan turned his attention to the growing Christian church. This church, now carrying both the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus, became his next target. Under the influence of papal Rome, the church gradually abandoned its Jewish roots, deliberately separating itself from the Jews and their covenant with God. This separation allowed the church to distance itself from its foundational ties to God’s covenantal promises while adopting corrupted doctrines. Pagan practices, idol worship, and sacramental systems replaced the simplicity of faith in Jesus Christ. Satan’s influence led to the alteration of God’s Word, including the Ten Commandments, such as the change to the Sabbath. The papal church claimed divine authority, including the ability to forgive sins, placing itself as an intermediary between humanity and God—contradicting the Gospel message.

Satan’s strategy was twofold: first, leading Israel to reject the Messiah, and second, corrupting the church to distort the Word of God and testimony of Jesus. Without the Messiah or the truth of God’s Word, salvation becomes impossible. Revelation 12:16-17 reflects the culmination of this battle, with Satan’s fury directed at the woman (Israel) and her offspring (the church). Despite these attacks, God’s faithfulness ensures that His Word, His testimony, and His covenant remain steadfast, preserving His people and their ultimate role in His redemptive plan.

 

[Earburner]

My conclusion is this … at Pentecost a sound from heaven as a mighty rushing wind filled all the house where they were sitting. The 144,000 were sealed under the old covenant which is why they are seen as being sealed from the various tribes. After this in Revelation 7:9 there is a great multitude which can’t be numbered from every nation and tongue. These are sealed after Pentecost.

The number 144,000 is to be understood symbolically, being a number of completion.
I perceive that you are on the correct track with the 144,000.
However, if you are thinking that those of Israel, who were only living believers in Christ, upon the Day of Pentecost, we should not forget all of the names of Israel that God had them "written in a book of remembrance" (Malachi 3:16).

These are they who had died in faith "under the altar" of the OC, who had been waiting for "the Promise that was to come".
For them, while they were mortally alive, the Gift of the Holy Spirit was not yet permanently dwelling within them, because he "had not yet been given". That is,... NOT UNTIL the shedding of Christ's blood, for the forgiveness and the REMOVAL of sins.

We can now perceive and know that each of them, who were of God's Remembrance, did receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit in Rev. 6:9-11, when Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth, as he also ascended upon high." It was for them that God did remember and did REWARD with "white robes", aka the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and therefore they are sealed unto the day of Redemption.
Even the repentant thief on the cross understood it, when he said: "Remember me when you come into your kingdom". Jesus did exactly that!!

 

[grafted branch]

The number 144,000 is to be understood symbolically, being a number of completion.
I perceive that you are on the correct track with the 144,000.
However, if you are thinking that those of Israel, who were only living believers in Christ, upon the Day of Pentecost, we should not forget all of the names of Israel that God had them "written in a book of remembrance" (Malachi 3:16).

These are they who had died in faith "under the altar" of the OC, who had been waiting for "the Promise that was to come".
For them, while they were mortally alive, the Gift of the Holy Spirit was not yet permanently dwelling within them, because he "had not yet been given". That is,... NOT UNTIL the shedding of Christ's blood, for the forgiveness and the REMOVAL of sins.

We can now perceive and know that each of them, who were of God's Remembrance, did receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit in Rev. 6:9-11, when Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth, as he also ascended upon high." It was for them that God did remember and did REWARD with "white robes", aka the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and therefore they are sealed unto the day of Redemption.
Even the repentant thief on the cross understood it, when he said: "Remember me when you come into your kingdom". Jesus did exactly that!!

If you’re saying those under the altar at the fifth seal are the 144,000 and they are actually sealed when they are given the white robes, then yea, I can agree with that. I think the fifth seal takes place after the cross, prior to Pentecost.