Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[grafted branch]

It doesn't say they are resurrected during Satan's little season. It says they are resurrectd after the thousand years.

No, it doesn’t say they are resurrected, it says “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished”. The thousand years are finished when Satan is loosed.

They are not only resurrected after the thousand years, but after Satan's little season, also.

Right, and the 70th week happening 2,000 years later means it still happens after the 69th week.

Scripture teaches that when the dead are resurrected they are then judged and their judgment is portrayed after Satan's little season ends first.

I agree the scriptures teach when the physical dead are resurrected, as I have said Revelation 20:5 doesn’t pertain to physical resurrection, that’s your idea not mine.

So, we can safely conclude that they are not resurrected immediately when the thousand years ends, but after Satan's little season ends as well.

That’s like safely concluded the 70th week doesn’t immediately follow the 69th week.

I am not inserting any gap in Revelation 20. I don't add any time period to it besides those mentioned (the thousand years and Satan's little season), so stop wasting your time talking about that.

People who insist the 70th week hasn’t happened yet also conclude they aren’t adding any time period.

No, it is not. You have no idea of what you're talking about.

Yes I do have an idea of what I’m talking about. If you’d like I can go through your previous posts on this forum and show where you argue the exact opposite of what you are currently proposing.

I can't take you seriously when you acknowledge that the souls John saw in Revelation 6:9-10 are physically dead, but somehow the souls he saw in Revelation 20 are not. There is no consistency in your method of interpretation.

And I can’t take you seriously when you have to put forth the same kind of argument as those who separate the 70 weeks, yet you disagree with them when they do the same exact thing.

 

[CTK]

I don't know if I said that, but I certainly do believe that. I am an amillennialist. Do you know what amillennialists believe? I honestly don't feel like explaining it to you right now, so if you don't know what we believe, then please look it up and educate yourself.


In other words, you believe that He will kill all of those who did not accept Him when He comes, right? If so, I agree with that. That is what amillennialists like me believe. However, I don't see the thousand years as beginning at that point. I don't take the thousand years literally. Since scripture teaches that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23) and that His poeple have been priests in His kingdom since then (1 Peter 2:9, Rev 1:5-6), that tells me that the figurative thousand years began a long time ago.

When the dead in Christ are resurrected, they will not then be with Christ on earth for 1,000 years. They will be with Him for eternity in the new heavens and new earth. Unbelievers will instead be cast into the lake of fire. Read Matthew 25:31-46. That has unbelievers being cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" when Jesus comes with His angels. Do you think that is speaking of something different than unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15)?


They will all be killed. The problem is that you think the thousand years don't begin until then, but it makes no sense that the earth would be desolate during the thousand years. Why? What would be the point of that? And who exactly would be the ones who number "as the sand of the sea" who go up against "the camp of the saints" after the thousands years ends and Satan is loosed if there's no one on the earth during the thousand years?

Do you ever ask God for wisdom about these things (James 1:5-7) or do you just rely completely on your own intellect to try to figure it all out?

Have a good day… I will no longer be responding to your posts. Best wishes.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Spiritual Israelite, this post here raised a question in me, what your thoughts on the word zao used here (where someone is obviously physically alive as you yourself point out one can be) but in contrast to being spiritually alive the person is actually dead spiritually. You might even be able to add this one into the above too could you not?

This one here

1 Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth (zao)

Sure, that could be used as an example of what that word means. It simply refers to someone being alive and does not refer to the act of coming to life again. The word "anazao" is used to refer to the rest of the dead and that word does mean to come to life again. So, Revelation 20:4 is talking about people who are physically dead, but spiritually alive in heaven where John sees their souls and they live and reign with Christ there. The rest of the dead do not live and reign with Christ and instead won't see Christ until they are resurrected after the thousand years to face Him for judgment while giving an account of themselves, just as everyone will have to do (Romans 14:10-12).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, it doesn’t say they are resurrected, it says “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished”.

That is saying they live again after the thousand years is finished. It doesn't have to be immediately after it is finished. It will be after Satan's little season is finished as well because scripture teaches that people will be judged after being resurrected and we can see them being judged in Revelation 20:11-15, which follows both the thousand years and Satan's little season.

This is getting repetitive, so I don't think I want to continue this discussion any longer if you can't bring something new to the table.

The thousand years are finished when Satan is loosed.

No kidding. Did I say otherwise? I did not.

Right, and the 70th week happening 2,000 years later means it still happens after the 69th week.

You keep wasting your time comparing this to that prophecy. The problem with comparing this to that is that there is no time period refere'nced in Daniel 9:24-27 that comes between the 69th and 70th weeks. But, in Revelation 20, there is clearly a time period that is said to occur between the end of the thousand years and the judgment, which is what we call Satan's little season. So, if anyone is putting a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks, there is no basis for it from the text itself. By putting a gap of a little season between the end of the thousand years and the judgment, I'm basing that on the actual text in Revelation 20 itself and not just trying to insert a gap there that I'm calling Satan's little season.

I agree the scriptures teach when the physical dead are resurrected, as I have said Revelation 20:5 doesn’t pertain to physical resurrection, that’s your idea not mine.

Jesus taught then when the wicked dead a bodily resurrected, they will be resurrrected

People who insist the 70th week hasn’t happened yet also conclude they aren’t adding any time period.

LOL! Are you kidding me here? Are you accusing me of making up something called Satan's little season? Are you denying that Satan's little season comes between the end of the thousand years and the judgment in Rev 20:11-15? If not, then how am I adding a time period? I'm not. Satan's little season is referenced explicitly in the text, so how am I adding that? This is so ridiculous.

Yes I do have an idea of what I’m talking about. If you’d like I can go through your previous posts on this forum and show where you argue the exact opposite of what you are currently proposing.

Go for it. I don't believe you.

And I can’t take you seriously when you have to put forth the same kind of argument as those who separate the 70 weeks, yet you disagree with them when they do the same exact thing.

It's not like that at all! Is this all you have to offer is false accusations like this? If so, then you have nothing to offer. Is there anything in the text of Daniel 9;24-27 to indicate a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. Clearly not. Is there anything in the text of Revelation 20 to indicate a gap between the end of the thousand years and the judgment? Yes, there is. Satan's little season described in verses 7 through 9. So, how you think these things are comparable is beyond me, but it's totally ridiculous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Have a good day… I will no longer be responding to your posts. Best wishes.

So, you have no interest in backing up your claims and explaining your conclusions. You share your opinions while expecting them to not be challenged, which makes no sense on a forum like this. So be it. You have a good day, too.

 

[Davidpt]

David, how many times have I pointed out how the word "zao" is used to describe those who live and reign with Christ while the word "anazao" is used to describe the rest of the dead living again after the thousand years? Several times. Yet, you are acting as if I've never addressed this before.

Premils have no explanation for why the word "zao" is used to describe those who live and reign with Christ with the word "anazao" describing the rest of the dead. The reason is that there is a different context to those who live and reign with Christ compared to those who live again after the thousand years. The word "zao" means to be alive and living. It can be used to describe physically living people or to describe people who are physically dead, but spiritually alive. In this case, John saw the souls of physically dead people and they live ("zao") and reign with Christ in heaven. As for the rest of the dead they don't reign with Christ and will be resurrectd after the thousand yeras to be judged. That's why the word "anazao" instead of "zao" is used to refer to them.

Then there's another aspect to this that premils don't seem to want to talk about much and that is Revelation 20:6. That talks about people reigning with Christ during the thousand years as priests of God and of Christ. Amils like to point out that Christ has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:16-18, Eph 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6) and that believers have been priests of God and of Christ since then as well (1 Peter 2:9, Rev 1:5-6). That helps us determine the timing of the thosuand years, but Premils don't seem to want to acknowledge this.

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive(zao)


Take this verse, for example. We should believe, per this context, that zao doesn't mean the reason He is alive(zao) is because He was initially dead then rose from the dead, thus alive again? If zao only means what you insist it means, it would mean He was always alive bodily and was never bodily dead at anytime, even though the text plainly says was dead. And besides, no Christian disputes that Christ bodily died on the cross, thus was dead. If someone is bodily dead then they are bodily alive, in what universe would this not mean that they are bodily alive again, that they bodily live again? Keeping in mind we are talking about Jesus here, and that Revelation 2:8 says, which was dead, and is alive(zao)

And since Revelation 2:8 does not use the same Greek word Revelation 20:5 uses, anazao, but instead uses zao, how does Revelation 2:8 help prove your point pertaining to Revelation 20:4 using zao while Revelation 20:5 uses anazao, in regards to living?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive(zao)


Take this verse, for example. We should believe, per this context, that zao doesn't mean the reason He is alive is because He was initially dead then rose from the dead, thus alive again? If zao only means what you insist it means, it would mean He was always alive and was never dead at anytime, even though the text plainly says was dead.

Are you aware that we've had this discussion several times before or am I the only one who remembers any of our past discussions? You act like this is the first time we've ever discussed this, which is just comical.

The word zao there in Rev 2:8 is not a reference to His resurrection itself. That is my point. It can be used to refer to someone who is alive now after previously being dead or it can be used to refer to someone who is alive and has never died. The point is that the word refers to someone being alive and not necessarily that they have been resurrected. It is not a word used to describe the actual act of coming back to life (the act of being resurrected from the dead). The word anazao, however, can be used to refer to someone coming back to life (the actual act of being resurrected from the dead).

So, if you are trying to say that the word "zao" can only refer to someone who has been bodily resurrected, that is absolutely not the case.

And besides, no Christian disputes that Christ died on the cross, thus was dead. If someone is bodily dead then they are bodily alive, in what universe would this not mean that they are bodily alive again, that they bodily live again?

You are completely missing the point. Why don't you tell me why a word that is not used to describe the actual act of being resurrected from the dead is used in verse 4 while a word that DOES describe the actual act of being resurrected is used to describe the rest of the dead in verse 5? If it's talking about the bodily resurrection of both groups, then why wouldn't the same word be used to describe each of them?

And since Revelation 2:8 does not use the same Greek word Revelation 20:5 uses, anazao, but instead uses zao, how does Revelation 2:8 help prove your point pertaining to Revelation 20:4 using zao while Revelation 20:5 uses anazao, in regards to living?

Again, Revelation 2:8 refers to Jesus being alive when that was written, well after He had rose from the dead. It points out that He is alive even though He had previously been dead at one point in the past. However, it does not refer to the actual act of Him rising from the dead. You claim that verse 4 refers to the actual act of the bodies of the souls John saw as rising from the dead, but it does not. It only refers to the fact that they are alive in some sense, which is what the word zao means. I already talked about the different ways that word can be used, none of which is the way you think it is used in verse 4. The word doesn't automatically imply that someone was previously dead and is now alive, but it can be used that way, as it is in Revelation 2:8. But, the word can't be used to describe the actual act of rising from the dead, but that's how you think it is used in Revelation 20:4. The word anazao could be used that way, but not zao. And anazao is used to describe the rest of the dead coming to life in verse 5. If verse 4 was talking about the souls John saw coming back to life bodily, then it would have used the word anazao to describe their resurrection as well. But, it doesn't.

 

[grafted branch]

Go for it. I don't believe you.

Thanks for agreeing to this, this is just the start, I’ll post some more in a little bit.

This is absolutely right. There is absolutely nothing in the text itself to indicate that there would be any gap

But, my particular interpretation does not put a gap in

There's no gap in the prophecy itself, but you are adding one because of doctrinal bias.

There is no gap to see at all. You are making things up. You are the one adding to the scripture, not me. There is no gap indicated in the scripture, so I don't try to add one just because I'm desperate to make the text fit with my doctrine.

The question I have for you is why would there be a gap in the prophecy? The prophecy itself gives no such indication.

You, like others, force a gap

The idea that there would be a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks is not found anywhere in the text.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks for agreeing to this, this is just the start, I’ll post some more in a little bit.

This is all that comes up when I reply to post #368. What do you think you're proving in what you quoted me as saying? It looks like I have consistently maintained there is nothing in the text of Daniel 9;24-27 to indicate a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. So, what is your actual point here? You said I was saying something that contradicted what I had said before. No, I did not. And you're doing nothing to back that up. Please stop embarrassing yourself. I'm afraid you are just wasting eve more of your time on this. You can't get that time back.

What is hard to understand about this? Daniel 9:24-27 contains no text to indicate a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. Revelation 20, however, clearly contains text indicating a gap between the end of the thousand years and the judgment commonly called "Satan's little season". Do you disagree with that? If not, then what in the world is your point here?

 

[Verily]

Sure, that could be used as an example of what that word means. It simply refers to someone being alive and does not refer to the act of coming to life again. The word "anazao" is used to refer to the rest of the dead and that word does mean to come to life again. So, Revelation 20:4 is talking about people who are physically dead, but spiritually alive in heaven where John sees their souls and they live and reign with Christ there. The rest of the dead do not live and reign with Christ and instead won't see Christ until they are resurrected after the thousand years to face Him for judgment while giving an account of themselves, just as everyone will have to do (Romans 14:10-12).

I never noticed the difference there with the word anazao, thank you. I found it used in a few places, but not anything that seems to be too significant, for example in the below, Luke 15:24 attaches two numbers G326 G2532 beside the same words "alive again" found in Luke 15:32 where only one G326 is found next to the same words "alive again". Why does it do that?


Anazao
be alive again 2, revive 2, live again 1

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; G326 G2532 he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; G326 and was lost, and is found.

Then in Rev 20:5 to the word "lived" it holds two numbers G326 G0 beside it.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived G326 G0 not again G326 until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Then here, consistently between the words "revived" G326

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, G326 and I died.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, G326 that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

I dont really know what to make of it with just these verses here though. Just talking out loud, if you have anything else on this I might be interested in and have a moment to post it would love to read it.

 

[CTK]

No, you aren’t using scripture to support placing a gap in Revelation 20:5. All you show is that there is a resurrection at the GWTJ, to which I agree. That resurrection only proves my point that the Revelation 20:5 dead that live again when the thousand years are finished has to be spiritual in nature. The burden of proof is on you to provide scripture to support your gap insertion.

Just a thought... I believe the dead in Christ as well as those alive in Christ will be taken to be with Jesus when He returns. Both will be given an immortal body. However, after the millenium, those that are brought up from the grave are those that have rejected Jesus from all time. They will not be brought forward with an immortal body. They will be judged and sent into the lake of fire. So, I don't see anything in Revelation that tells us they will be resurrected in the spiritual to be judged.... In 20:8, they will be "nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea." Nothing that hints of their spiritual bodies ... Now, regarding the GWTJ, this does not seem that this is another "resurrection for destruction" event AFTER the wicked were destroyed after the millenium. And I don't think there has to be a consideraton for a "gap" in time. I think (perhaps) this is a purposeful comment from God that provides ALL that His judgement is fair and righteous.... He will reveal to the entire universe why they WERE destroyed. Now, one other thing you might want to think about --- if you remember in Genesis, after Adam and Eve sinned as a result of following Satan's deception, God would FIRST speak to Satan and tell him about his eventual destruction -God addressed him first, and then He turned to Adam and Eve and gave them their punishment. They were sent out of Eden .... Here in the end time, we also see that God will bring Satan out of the Abyss and FIRST sent him into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet have already been sent. Then, He will destroy the wicked or those who rejected God.

 

[ewq1938]

No, you aren’t using scripture to support placing a gap in Revelation 20:5.

There is no gap. You have created a gap to attack. It's called a strawman fallacy.

The fact is the bible places the second resurrection just before the GWTJ, not immediately at the end of the thousand years as you do through another fallacy, eisegesis.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I never noticed the difference there with the word anazao, thank you. I found it used in a few places, but not anything that seems to be too significant, for example in the below, Luke 15:24 attaches two numbers G326 G2532 beside the same words "alive again" found in Luke 15:32 where only one G326 is found next to the same words "alive again". Why does it do that?


Anazao
be alive again 2, revive 2, live again 1

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; G326 G2532 he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; G326 and was lost, and is found.

Then in Rev 20:5 to the word "lived" it holds two numbers G326 G0 beside it.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived G326 G0 not again G326 until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Then here, consistently between the words "revived" G326

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, G326 and I died.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, G326 that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

I dont really know what to make of it with just these verses here though. Just talking out loud, if you have anything else on this I might be interested in and have a moment to post it would love to read it.

I think the takeaway from those verses is that they use the word anazao to refer to the actual act of being resurrected or coming to life while the word zao is never used that way. It is used in Revelation 2:8 to describe Jesus being alive at the time Revelation was written despite previously being dead in the past, but it does not describe His actual resurrection from the dead like the word anazao is in a verse like Romans 14:9.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, you aren’t using scripture to support placing a gap in Revelation 20:5. All you show is that there is a resurrection at the GWTJ, to which I agree. That resurrection only proves my point that the Revelation 20:5 dead that live again when the thousand years are finished has to be spiritual in nature. The burden of proof is on you to provide scripture to support your gap insertion.

Do you not believe that people are judged right after their resurrection? Why else does John 5:28-29 talk about all of the dead either being resurrected unto life or unto damnation? That implies that people are judged immediately after their resurrection, so that would place the timing of the resurrection right before the GWTJ and not right at the end of the thousand years and beginning of Satan's little season instead. You're not allowing other scripture to aid your understanding here. It's not as if this contradicts what the text says. If the resurrection occurs after Satan's little season it's still true that it also occurs after the thousand years, as the text says.

 

[Verily]

I think the takeaway from those verses is that they use the word anazao to refer to the actual act of being resurrected or coming to life while the word zao is never used that way. It is used in Revelation 2:8 to describe Jesus being alive at the time Revelation was written despite previously being dead in the past, but it does not describe His actual resurrection from the dead like the word anazao is in a verse like Romans 14:9.

Well, thats interesting, thanks Spiritual Israelite.

One last thing if you have an extra minute, in Rev 20:5 to the word "lived" has two references G326 G0 beside it.

See that?

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived G326 G0 not again G326 until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I clicked on the second one beside it and got this

00 'Special Concordance Entry

The original word in the Greek or Hebrew is translated by more than one word in the English. The English translation is separated by one or more other words from the original.

e.g. Mat. 15:30
Strong's No. 630 -- to send away
English -- send [G630] [G0] her [G846] away [G630]

Here the verb "send away" is split by the word "her". The zero means the verb only occurs once in this passage not twice. Sometimes five or six words separate a word. Some exceptions are in Jer. 51:3 where the zero in:

bendeth [H1869] [H0] let the archer [H1869] bend [H1869]
connects "bendeth" with "bend" not "archer". See also Nu:16:13, 22:17, 2Sa 12:14

Do you have any clue as to what that is about there?

 

[grafted branch]

Just a thought... I believe the dead in Christ as well as those alive in Christ will be taken to be with Jesus when He returns. Both will be given an immortal body. However, after the millenium, those that are brought up from the grave are those that have rejected Jesus from all time. They will not be brought forward with an immortal body. They will be judged and sent into the lake of fire. So, I don't see anything in Revelation that tells us they will be resurrected in the spiritual to be judged.... In 20:8, they will be "nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea." Nothing that hints of their spiritual bodies ... Now, regarding the GWTJ, this does not seem that this is another "resurrection for destruction" event AFTER the wicked were destroyed after the millenium. And I don't think there has to be a consideraton for a "gap" in time. I think (perhaps) this is a purposeful comment from God that provides ALL that His judgement is fair and righteous.... He will reveal to the entire universe why they WERE destroyed. Now, one other thing you might want to think about --- if you remember in Genesis, after Adam and Eve sinned as a result of following Satan's deception, God would FIRST speak to Satan and tell him about his eventual destruction -God addressed him first, and then He turned to Adam and Eve and gave them their punishment. They were sent out of Eden .... Here in the end time, we also see that God will bring Satan out of the Abyss and FIRST sent him into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet have already been sent. Then, He will destroy the wicked or those who rejected God.

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with the dead in Christ as well as those alive being taken with Jesus when he returns, I agree with those that have rejected Jesus from all time being resurrected to be judged and cast into the LOF.

But, I personally don’t see the “rest of the dead” as being physically dead or them being part of the nations that are gathered in 20:8.

Here’s my view in brief … the rest of the dead are Israel being blind in part. When the Son of man is revealed (Luke 17:30-31) the blindness in part is removed, they live again, and they flee Jerusalem as it is surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20) this takes place when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, meaning when all that is prophesied for the Gentiles come in. Luke 21:22 says that all things written may be fulfilled, which would include Satan deceiving the Gentiles (nations) in Revelation 20:8.

So I see Satan’s little season as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, the city of Jerusalem and its contents being devoured by fire.

We really are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this topic.

For me, the biggest issue with saying the rest of the dead don’t live again till after Satan’s little season instead of the thousand years is that it creates a method of interpretation where by we can add additional time to things like the two witnesses. I know some people have no issues changing their methods of interpretation to support their views but as someone told me long ago, it’s called handyman hermeneutics. A frequent changing in one’s method of interpretation to patch the holes in one’s theology.

 

[CTK]

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with the dead in Christ as well as those alive being taken with Jesus when he returns, I agree with those that have rejected Jesus from all time being resurrected to be judged and cast into the LOF.

But, I personally don’t see the “rest of the dead” as being physically dead or them being part of the nations that are gathered in 20:8.

Here’s my view in brief … the rest of the dead are Israel being blind in part. When the Son of man is revealed (Luke 17:30-31) the blindness in part is removed, they live again, and they flee Jerusalem as it is surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20) this takes place when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, meaning when all that is prophesied for the Gentiles come in. Luke 21:22 says that all things written may be fulfilled, which would include Satan deceiving the Gentiles (nations) in Revelation 20:8.

So I see Satan’s little season as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, the city of Jerusalem and its contents being devoured by fire.

We really are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this topic.

For me, the biggest issue with saying the rest of the dead don’t live again till after Satan’s little season instead of the thousand years is that it creates a method of interpretation where by we can add additional time to things like the two witnesses. I know some people have no issues changing their methods of interpretation to support their views but as someone told me long ago, it’s called handyman hermeneutics. A frequent changing in one’s method of interpretation to patch the holes in one’s theology.

Thanks. I am not sure I completely understand your thoughts but let me ask you a question. Is it your understanding that the 144000 will have their blindness removed AFTER Jesus returns?

For me, there has been almost 2000 years (period of the 7 churches) for people to repent. Now that we are clearly in the last church of Laodecia, we are being shown just how close we are to the end… He has given us the 7 church periods not only to understand how we can fall short in any one of the churches, but they also reveal the timing we find ourselves. We are at the end of it all! So, in addition to the 7 churches, He also provides us with the 7 Trumpets… meaning, how much more can He do to warn us of both our shortcomings and the short time we have to repent?

After the symbolic Trumpet warnings, the time for repentance is over and God will sent the bowls of judgment. No more warnings- no additional mulligans!

Revelation begins with the 7 churches… Ephesus is during the time of John and each church period moves forward… The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD is behind John… I don’t understand how you view the timing of Revelation- but it does not speak of any time before John.

I think I will need to understand more of how you interpret Revelation and the time line for these events / verses.

 

[grafted branch]

Thanks. I am not sure I completely understand your thoughts but let me ask you a question. Is it your understanding that the 144000 will have their blindness removed AFTER Jesus returns?

For me, there has been almost 2000 years (period of the 7 churches) for people to repent. Now that we are clearly in the last church of Laodecia, we are being shown just how close we are to the end… He has given us the 7 church periods not only to understand how we can fall short in any one of the churches, but they also reveal the timing we find ourselves. We are at the end of it all! So, in addition to the 7 churches, He also provides us with the 7 Trumpets… meaning, how much more can He do to warn us of both our shortcomings and the short time we have to repent?

After the symbolic Trumpet warnings, the time for repentance is over and God will sent the bowls of judgment. No more warnings- no additional mulligans!

Revelation begins with the 7 churches… Ephesus is during the time of John and each church period moves forward… The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD is behind John… I don’t understand how you view the timing of Revelation- but it does not speak of any time before John.

I think I will need to understand more of how you interpret Revelation and the time line for these events / verses.

I think the 144,000 were part of those that came out of the graves in Matthew 27:52-53. I don’t see them as having spiritual blindness since I see them as having already been resurrected when we read about them in Revelation.

I understand the blindness to be on those who held on to the old covenant after the cross.

2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

I see the Galatians 2:9 agreement as being kept for their lifetimes, meaning the books James, Peter, and John wrote were written to a Jewish audience primarily.

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Now, that being said, I personally don’t see the messages to the seven churches having a direct implication for seven progressive time periods of a new covenant Church age. I’m not going to argue against the idea but I don’t promote it either.

All in all, as Christians we all think we have a true and correct interpretation because if we knew we had something incorrect we would abandon it. That’s what true believers do, they seek the truth. But also we know we are not perfect, and since there are various interpretations that are held by believers, I must conclude that I myself hold incorrect interpretations somewhere. If I knew where, I would correct it, but I’m imperfect.

What I look for is consistency in a method of interpretation, and I think God made the Bible in such a way that we will never all agree while we’re on this earth. It’s a test to see if we will hold onto a view that we cherish or if we are willing to allow ourselves to be molded like clay when previously unknown to us information from the Bible is presented.

I appreciate the approach you’ve taken on this forum so far and if you see something that I’ve said that you want to investigate further I’m willing to take a closer look.

 

[CTK]

I think the 144,000 were part of those that came out of the graves in Matthew 27:52-53. I don’t see them as having spiritual blindness since I see them as having already been resurrected when we read about them in Revelation.

I believe this is speaking to those who were literally resurrected as a result of the resurrection of Christ in the first century. Again, the book of Revelation begins with John and church age (really after the cross period and after the church has already begun to be preached in the world).

Here is a part of the narrative for the 144000:
Revelation 7:4-8


The sealing of God’s servants in Revelation 7:4-8 strongly parallels the final plague in Exodus and finds echoes in other Old Testament passages. These connections highlight God’s consistent pattern of mercy and protection for His faithful. In the final plague of Exodus, God commanded the Israelites to mark their doorposts with the blood of a lamb (Exodus 12:7, 13). This mark symbolized their allegiance to God and provided protection against the destroying angel. Similarly, the sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation identifies and safeguards God’s servants from the judgments to come. Both instances underscore God’s power to shield His people amid widespread calamity—whether it is the Israelites’ deliverance from Egypt or the faithful’s ultimate redemption in Revelation.

This theme also appears in Ezekiel’s vision of the mark (Ezekiel 9:3-6), where a man clothed in linen marks the foreheads of those grieving over Jerusalem’s sins. Those marked are spared from destruction, much like the servants sealed in Revelation 7. In these scenes, the mark represents divine protection and sets the faithful apart from those subject to judgment. Other Old Testament references further enrich this symbolism. Deuteronomy 6:8 instructs God’s people to bind His words as a sign on their hands and foreheads, symbolizing devotion and obedience—similar to being sealed as God’s own. Malachi 3:17-18 promises God’s protection for those who fear Him, calling them His "jewels." Likewise, in Isaiah 26:20-21, God tells His people to "enter your chambers" and hide until His wrath has passed, a vivid parallel to the sealing in Revelation, where judgment is delayed until the faithful are identified and protected. These connections between Revelation 7 and the Old Testament emphasize God’s unchanging character. The seal, like the blood on the doorposts or the mark in Ezekiel, signifies God’s ownership, care, and mercy for His people.

The 144,000 in Revelation as God’s chosen witnesses at the end of time is both compelling and meaningful. These individuals represent God’s people who, like Paul, will be given their own "Damascus experience.” Romans 11:25-26 speaks of a time when the partial hardening of Israel will end, allowing them to recognize Jesus as their Messiah. This aligns with Zechariah 12:10, where the people of Israel will mourn deeply as they realize they have pierced the One who came to save them. At this pivotal moment, God’s people will have the blindness lifted from their eyes and will embrace Jesus, fulfilling their role in His redemptive plan.

These 144,000 will then go out into the world, preaching the Good News with fervor and urgency, much like Paul did in the first century. Their mission will be a final call to humanity to turn to God before the return of Christ. This mission is tied to the prophetic timeline of Daniel’s 70 weeks of years (Daniel 9:24-27). The 3.5 years of ministry by the 144,000 will complete the final portion of the 490 years decreed for God’s people. The timeline, which began in 457 BC, was interrupted at the cross, with 486.5 years fulfilled. The remaining 3.5 years must be completed, and can only be completed by His people. At the conclusion of these final 3.5 years, the 4th and final Great Jubilee cycle will be completed – then the Messiah.

The 144,000, sealed as God’s faithful witnesses, will not only go out into the world to preach the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus but will also expose the profound departure of the church and its teachings from the true Word of God. Over the past 1500 years, the little horn, symbolizing the papacy, has disseminated doctrines and practices that diverge from biblical truth. These witnesses will serve as a powerful testimony, shining a light on these deviations and calling people back to the purity of God’s Word. Their mission will be one of both proclamation and restoration, revealing God’s truth and preparing the world for the Messiah’s return.

I understand the blindness to be on those who held on to the old covenant after the cross.

Yes.

2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

I see the Galatians 2:9 agreement as being kept for their lifetimes, meaning the books James, Peter, and John wrote were written to a Jewish audience primarily.

I think most of the NT books were primarily written in Greek for the Gentiles after His people rejected Him.

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Yes, to preach to the Gentiles.

Now, that being said, I personally don’t see the messages to the seven churches having a direct implication for seven progressive time periods of a new covenant Church age. I’m not going to argue against the idea but I don’t promote it either.

I understand and I am certain you are not alone with this..... but if this is true, then only God could make this happen. So, please consider this: The letters to the 7 churches reflect the ONE church that was established by Jesus. There were 7 literal churches at the time of John in Asia Minor - which of course, each of them would have the exact characteristics, weaknesses, strengths, etc., that could be found in any church during any period of time. Further, these weaknesses / characteristics, etc., can be found in any follower of God in every or any period of the church age for the enxt 2000 years. But it is only God who has the ability to put this all together (He is also showing us His church - "as it was, as it is, and as it will be." In addition, God would use a very frequent teaching method - especially in Revelation: He would take a concept - for example in Chapter 1, He would reveal / discuss how the One God can be seen as 3, and He purposefully discusses that. In chapters 2 and 3, He divides His one church into 7 symbolic churches so He can reveal and discuss each of the 7 issues that would be found in each of the 7 churches. This allows Him to speak more specifically to each issue. In chapter 6, He reveals the 4 horsemend as separate entities, yet they symbolize the 4 methods the little horn (papacy) will conduct his ways to go against God and His people over the centuries. Then He breaks out the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls and purposefully speaks to each characteristic or concern in greater detail.... But in reality, there is only going to be one trumpet, one bowl judgemet, etc. God is spoon feeding us of the events that will take place at the end of time by breaking them out into very understandable and deliberate events.

Now, getting back to the question of whether the 7 churches also represent the literal 7 church periods from the cross to the end of time, I believe He is more than capable of doing this as well. So, how might be think of this? Try and take any one of the 7 churches and their specific weaknesses, strenghts, rebukes, commenadations, etc., and rearrange them. Meaning, take the characteristics of the Loadecian church and move it back to the placement of the church of Smyra -- would this work? Take the church of Philadephia and all its characteristics and move it back to the time of the churh of Thyratira --- would that work? No, there is not one of the 7 churches that would meet the characteristics / weaknesses, rebukes, etc., for any of the other church periods - only God could construct such a thing!

All in all, as Christians we all think we have a true and correct interpretation because if we knew we had something incorrect we would abandon it. That’s what true believers do, they seek the truth. But also we know we are not perfect, and since there are various interpretations that are held by believers, I must conclude that I myself hold incorrect interpretations somewhere. If I knew where, I would correct it, but I’m imperfect.

Agree.

What I look for is consistency in a method of interpretation, and I think God made the Bible in such a way that we will never all agree while we’re on this earth. It’s a test to see if we will hold onto a view that we cherish or if we are willing to allow ourselves to be molded like clay when previously unknown to us information from the Bible is presented.

Agree.

I appreciate the approach you’ve taken on this forum so far and if you see something that I’ve said that you want to investigate further I’m willing to take a closer look.

Hope some of what is presented makes sense and as you said, this is just my interpretation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with the dead in Christ as well as those alive being taken with Jesus when he returns, I agree with those that have rejected Jesus from all time being resurrected to be judged and cast into the LOF.

But, I personally don’t see the “rest of the dead” as being physically dead or them being part of the nations that are gathered in 20:8.

Here’s my view in brief … the rest of the dead are Israel being blind in part. When the Son of man is revealed (Luke 17:30-31) the blindness in part is removed, they live again, and they flee Jerusalem as it is surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20) this takes place when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, meaning when all that is prophesied for the Gentiles come in. Luke 21:22 says that all things written may be fulfilled, which would include Satan deceiving the Gentiles (nations) in Revelation 20:8.

So I see Satan’s little season as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, the city of Jerusalem and its contents being devoured by fire.

We really are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this topic.

For me, the biggest issue with saying the rest of the dead don’t live again till after Satan’s little season instead of the thousand years is that it creates a method of interpretation where by we can add additional time to things like the two witnesses. I know some people have no issues changing their methods of interpretation to support their views but as someone told me long ago, it’s called handyman hermeneutics. A frequent changing in one’s method of interpretation to patch the holes in one’s theology.

Satan’s little season in 70ad?! LOL. No wondered you were trying To apply the rest of the dead to the Jews in the first century. Totally mess up.

Answer the questions:

1.) when did Satan bind?
2.) when did the first resurrection begin?
3.) when did Satan got loosen from bottomless pit?
4.) when was the thousand years?
5.) How long was Satan’s short season last? Month and year.