Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[Douggg]

But you are assuming the rest of the dead are physically dead and not spiritually dead. If you would accept that idea you wouldn’t need a resurrection to make the spiritually dead live again prior to Satan’s little season and you can keep the physical resurrection at the GWTJ.

I don't understand what you are saying.

People who are spiritually dead are born again (spiritually) when they receive Jesus as their savior, by His death and resurrection as atonement for their sins.

 

[grafted branch]

I don't understand what you are saying.

People who are spiritually dead are born again when they receive Jesus as their savior, by His death and resurrection as atonement for their sins.

Those who were following and abiding by the law were spiritually “alive” prior to Christ. Once Christ came, those who didn’t recognize Jesus as the Messiah while still following and abiding by the law were now spiritually “dead”. All they had to do was not believe and they went from being alive to being dead. These people are the rest of the dead in Revelation 20:5.

 

[Douggg]

Those who were following and abiding by the law were spiritually “alive” prior to Christ.

No-one perfectly abides by the law. Every man has sinned and comes short of the glory of God.

Once Christ came, those who didn’t recognize Jesus as the Messiah while still following and abiding by the law were now spiritually “dead”. All they had to do was not believe and they went from being alive to being dead.

No, no-one is spiritually alive prior to them turning to Jesus. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

As the song "On Christ the solid rock I stand" lyrics say - "Our hope is built on nothing less than Jesus's blood and righteousness."

On Christ the solid rock I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand,
All other ground is sinking sand.

 

[ewq1938]

That’s the whole problem

No. The problem is the text literally presents the resurrection of the unsaved as after the little season, not before it. You are simply using eisegesis to force the idea of immediately into the verse but the full passage does not support that concept.

 

[Davidpt]

First off, it’s somewhat deceptive to make statements like statement A) if you knew ahead of time that Trump would serve two non-consecutive terms. A person trying to convey the truth in an “unsealed” manner would say A) But Trump served as President not again until Biden’s term as President was finished.

Alright, besides that, let’s say I agree with the idea of inserting gaps when my view needs one to make sense.

In Revelation 20:3 it says “till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season”. Since we have no problems inserting gaps then it doesn’t matter whether the thousand years are literal or not, I can insert an unknown time gap after the thousand years before Satan is loosed and make the millennium any time span I want. I can argue the actual literal thousand years are over and we are in the time gap before Satan is loosed, thus essentially proving the Amil view of a non-literal thousand years.

Come on now, you can't be serious, no one is being deceptive about anything here, the point I am making is that A) proves that just because something doesn't happen until something previous is finished first, this doesn't have to mean once the previous event finishes, the next event immediately follows. Not that it can't immediately follow, because clearly it can in some cases, such as Presidents who served 2 terms, one immediately after the other, such as Bush jr., Clinton, Obama, to name a few. As to Trump, he serves 2 terms as well, but there is a gap between serving these terms.

Bush jr., Clinton, Obama, their 2nd term is meaning after they finish their first term. The same is true of Trump unless you want to argue that he never finished his first term first before he begins his 2nd term. No matter how you look at it then, if the rest of the dead don't live again until the thousand years expire, and whether they live again at the beginning of satan's little season, or whether they live again at the beginning of the GWTJ, both are still meaning after the thousand years have finished.

We know or should know if we don't, why it can't possibly be meaning at the beginning of satan's little season. And here's why.

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them(Revelation 20:9) And guess what that means? They were alive initially but now they are dead. In order to stand in front of God at the GWTJ requires that they have to be alive again, thus bodily resurrected. No one is bodily resurrected more than one time. No one is dead more than one time, because if anyone is it wouldn't be called the 2nd death, it would be called the 3rd death, meaning the ones cast into the LOF.

Initially one is born then eventually dies, thus the first death. Eventually everyone lives again bodily, thus a resurrection. Except some die again, thus the 2nd death. Except it can't be the 2nd death if someone dies more than once and is raised more than once. Therefore, a resurrection at the beginning of satan's little season then another resurrection at the end of satan's little season is ludicrous. It can only be one or the other, not both. Meaning in regards to the rest of the dead not living again until after the thousand years expire. IOW, these in Revelation 20:8 join the rest of the dead already dead when they are devoured by fire. Now all of the rest of the dead rise together. Meaning the ones that were already dead before these are dead as well. Meaning the lost dead and not the saved dead as well. The saved dead already bodily rose from the dead a thousand years plus satan's little season earlier, meaning per Premil.

 

[grafted branch]

No-one perfectly abides by the law. Every man has sinned and comes short of the glory of God.



No, no-one is spiritually alive prior to them turning to Jesus. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

As the song "On Christ the solid rock I stand" lyrics say - "Our hope is built on nothing less than Jesus's blood and righteousness."

On Christ the solid rock I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand,
All other ground is sinking sand.

Ok, so would you agree then that there has only been one true Israel throughout time and the promises were made to that one true Israel and not the unsaved Israel that doesn’t believe in Jesus?

 

[grafted branch]

No. The problem is the text literally presents the resurrection of the unsaved as after the little season, not before it. You are simply using eisegesis to force the idea of immediately into the verse but the full passage does not support that concept.

Ok then do you accept that a literal thousand year millennium could’ve already taken place and that we are now in a time period where Satan is still bound and not loosed yet?

 

[grafted branch]

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them(Revelation 20:9) And guess what that means? They were alive initially but now they are dead. In order to stand in front of God at the GWTJ requires that they have to be alive again, thus bodily resurrected. No one is bodily resurrected more than one time. No one is dead more than one time, because if anyone is it wouldn't be called the 2nd death, it would be called the 3rd death, meaning the ones cast into the LOF.

That’s why they are spiritually dead and not literally dead. You are making the case for that view.

 

[Douggg]

Ok, so would you agree then that there has only been one true Israel throughout time and the promises were made to that one true Israel and not the unsaved Israel that doesn’t believe in Jesus?

People are not saved according to what nation they are of. People are saved by believing upon Jesus.

I don't know what point you are trying to make regarding Israel without you citing specific scriptures. Could we please stick to the topic of this thread ?

 

[Davidpt]

That’s why they are spiritually dead and not literally dead. You are making the case for that view.

You lost me. I don't know what you are meaning here?

 

[grafted branch]

People are not saved according to what nation they are of. People are saved by believing upon Jesus.

I don't know what point you are trying to make regarding Israel without you citing specific scriptures. Could we please stick to the topic of this thread ?

I’m focusing on Israel being called “dead” after the cross. That is very relevant to the rest of the dead in Revelation 20:5. If you’re arguing that people who don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah are spiritually dead, then we are on the same page.

In Deuteronomy 33:1-3 Moses calls all of Israel saints. That probably would’ve been a better term for me to use but regardless, I think can agree on what spiritually dead is.

Revelation 20:5 is referring to spiritually dead people.

 

[grafted branch]

You lost me. I don't know what you are meaning here?

You’re arguing why the Revelation 20:5 rest of the dead can’t be physically resurrected after the millennium but would have to be resurrected after Satan’s little season. That’s the same argument for why they have to be spiritually dead not physically dead. They come to life after the millennium not after the little season.

 

[Douggg]

I’m focusing on Israel being called “dead” after the cross. That is very relevant to the rest of the dead in Revelation 20:5. If you’re arguing that people who don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah are spiritually dead, then we are on the same page.

In Deuteronomy 33:1-3 Moses calls all of Israel saints. That probably would’ve been a better term for me to use but regardless, I think can agree on what spiritually dead is.

Revelation 20:5 is referring to spiritually dead people.

The Jews en masse with turn to Jesus in the middle of the 7 year 70th week in Revelation 12:10.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This is validated in Ezekiel 39:22. The Jews, as a people, presently do not recognize that Jesus is the LORD their God. But after Jesus's second coming in Ezekiel 39:21-29, they will.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Revelation 20:5 is referring to spiritually dead people.

"spiritually" dead is not in the text of Revelation 20:5. The rest of the dead is referring to physically dead persons.

Are you Amil and are trying to prove the Amil position ?

 

[grafted branch]

The Jews en masse with turn to Jesus in the middle of the 7 year 70th week in Revelation 12:10.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This is validated in Ezekiel 39:22. The Jews, as a people, presently do not recognize that Jesus is the LORD their God. But after Jesus's second coming in Ezekiel 39:21-29, they will.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.



"spiritually" dead is not in the text of Revelation 20:5. The rest of the dead is referring to physically dead persons.

Are you Amil and are trying to prove the Amil position ?

The Jews believed when the Son of man was revealed and that’s when they fled. That was also the time when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, and that was also when the fullness of the Gentiles came in, that is when all that was prophesied for the Gentiles was fulfilled. When the Son of man was revealed the blindness in part was removed.

Luke 17:30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

The rest of the dead in Revelation 20:5 lived again after the millennium, fled the beloved city, Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and it was devoured by fire. All fulfilled already.

 

[Douggg]

The Jews believed when the Son of man was revealed and that’s when they fled. That was also the time when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, and that was also when the fullness of the Gentiles came in, that is when all that was prophesied for the Gentiles was fulfilled. When the Son of man was revealed the blindness in part was removed.

Luke 17:30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

The rest of the dead in Revelation 20:5 lived again after the millennium, fled the beloved city, Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and it was devoured by fire. All fulfilled already.

Are you Amil ? Are you partial preterist ?

Luke 17:30-31 is end times, and has yet to be fulfilled.

 

[grafted branch]

Are you Amil ? Are you partial preterist ?

Luke 17:30-31 is end times, and has yet to be fulfilled.

I’m partial preterist, I abandoned the Amil view a while back, I find fault in their view of Satan’s little season.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok then do you accept that a literal thousand year millennium could’ve already taken place and that we are now in a time period where Satan is still bound and not loosed yet?

No. Never has Christ and immortal saints ruled the world, and never has satan been imprisoned and unable to deceive people. It's all future.

 

[ewq1938]

That’s why they are spiritually dead and not literally dead. You are making the case for that view.

The context is physically dead saints resurrecting in the first group, and the rest of the dead wait a thousand years for their resurrection. It's the two physical resurrections so many scriptures speak of....the res of life and the res of damnation.

 

[ewq1938]

The rest of the dead in Revelation 20:5 lived again after the millennium, fled the beloved city, Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and it was devoured by fire. All fulfilled already.

No. Jerusalem is not burned in Rev 20. Only satan's army is. None of Rev 20 has happened yet.

 

[grafted branch]

The context is physically dead saints resurrecting in the first group, and the rest of the dead wait a thousand years for their resurrection. It's the two physical resurrections so many scriptures speak of....the res of life and the res of damnation.

But if you insist they are physically dead and force a gap to be inserted as to when they are resurrected then by that same hermeneutic you would have to accept the idea that a gap can be inserted as to when Satan is loosed. Not to mention all the other gaps I can insert elsewhere in the Bible to make up all kinds of strange interpretations.

Is it really worth it to compromise your method of interpretation?