Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[grafted branch]

The rest of the dead are not resurrected except to appear before the Great White Throne Judgement.

No-one is killed twice, then resurrected twice as in your view.

I completely agree no one is killed twice. That is exactly why the rest of the dead has to mean spiritually dead.

What doesn’t make sense is to start inserting time gaps. What are the rules that we should use to know when to insert a time gap?

 

[Douggg]

What other city could it be? New Jerusalem is in heaven and the beloved city in Revelation 20 is on earth.

The new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem is in Revelation 21, after the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20.

On my chart is one the extreme right hand side.

 

[grafted branch]

I happen to think, though I'm a Premil, and regardless most Premils disagree, the new Jerusalem is on the earth at the beginning millennium. It doesn't make sense it could be meaning the old Jerusalem if the following per Ezekiel 38 happens in the end of this age involving the 2nd coming.

The camp<3925> of the saints means a camp, fort, castle, barracks, army in battle array.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

How is it that going on the breadth of the earth can encompass the camp of the saints? Do we start to fight against flesh and blood after the millennium?

 

[ewq1938]

“Them” is referring to the beloved city, Jerusalem.

Nice grammar. You go ahead and believe that.

 

[Douggg]

20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and [/ u]all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence[/u], and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground

On the new earth which will feature the new Jerusalem, there is no sea.

Revelaton 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[grafted branch]

The new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem is in Revelation 21, after the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20.

On my chart is one the extreme right hand side.

View attachment 56892

Ok, I agree. Do you agree that the camp of the saints is a physical city on earth called Jerusalem? I know we don’t agree as to when it takes place but maybe we can agree as to where it takes place.

 

[Davidpt]

On the new earth which will feature the new Jerusalem, there is no sea.

Revelaton 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Now you need to prove it's meaning literal seas? But that aside, anyone that already agrees that Ezekiel 38 is involving the end of this age can't get around the fact that every wall falls to the ground. As if it makes sense that God does that then someone rebuilds everything soon after, meaning before the millennium begins, which would mean God did all of that in vain and for nothing. He just wasted His time destroying it and accomplishing nothing in the end since they are going to rebuild it as fast as He destroys it. Why rebuild it all in the end of this age? Why not just leave everything standing instead? Lot simpler than destroying it then having to rebuild it the next day. It's like God is being mocked if true. That He can't even destroy something adequately because they can rebuild it as fast as He destroys it.

 

[Douggg]

No, it’s clear to me that the rest of the dead spiritually came to life after the millennium, that is the same time the Son of man is revealed, the same time the fullness of the Gentiles come in, and the same time the blindness in part is lifted. It all fits and makes sense.

Where in Revelation 20 are you finding the word "spiritually" in the text ?

Where in Revelation 20 are you reading the Son of man is revealed ?

Where in Revelation 20 are you reading the fullness of the Gentiles come in "

Where in Revelation 20 are you reading blindness in part is lifted ? And of who ?

 

[Douggg]

Ok, I agree. Do you agree that the camp of the saints is a physical city on earth called Jerusalem? I know we don’t agree as to when it takes place but maybe we can agree as to where it takes place.

The camp of the saints Revelation 20:9 is Israel, which Jerusalem is within Israel's borders. The beloved city, we agree is Jersualem.

The same Gog-Magog nations will be involved in the attack on Israel, as they will have done over a thousand years before.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[grafted branch]

Where in Revelation 20 are you finding the word "spiritually" in the text ?

Where in Revelation 20 are you reading the Son of man is revealed ?

Where in Revelation 20 are you reading the fullness of the Gentiles come in "

Where in Revelation 20 are you reading blindness in part is lifted ? And of who ?

Those terms aren’t in Revelation 20. I interpret the highly symbolic book of Revelation against the clearer teachings of the gospels and epistles.

Where do you see the millennium being taught in the gospels and epistles?

 

[Davidpt]

Where do you see the millennium being taught in the gospels and epistles?

Here, for one.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

Then per the following in Revelation.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[Douggg]

Now you need to prove it's meaning literal seas? But that aside, anyone that already agrees that Ezekiel 38 is involving the end of this age can't get around the fact that every wall falls to the ground.

It will be locally in the land of Israel. Although it will be clear to the world that God will be the One who causes the destruction of Gog's army, in verses 21-23.

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

 

[grafted branch]

Here, for one.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

Then per the following in Revelation.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Any verses about rebellion and deception in the regeneration? Anything that would apply to Satan’s little season?

 

[ewq1938]

Those terms aren’t in Revelation 20. I interpret the highly symbolic book of Revelation against the clearer teachings of the gospels and epistles.

Where do you see the millennium being taught in the gospels and epistles?

This is an invalid point since not even the gospels contain the exact same info nor are some books "clearer" than others.

 

[Davidpt]

Any verses about rebellion and deception in the regeneration? Anything that would apply to Satan’s little season?

TBH, that's not something I have noted being taught in the gospels or the epistles but can possibly be proved via OT prophecies, though. But then it requires logically deducing these things since it doesn't come right out and say that the rebellion per Revelation 20:7-9 is meant.

An example might be the following, for one.


Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.


Compare with the following.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

Then this.

Isaiah 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.


Compare with the following.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

And in that very same context in Isaiah 60 is the following.

Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.


This can't be meaning after the great white throne judgment, therefore, has to be meaning before the GWTJ. Then look what else I submitted per Isaiah 60, meaning verse 11 and 20. How can than not be involving the NHNE per Revelation 21-22? Therefore, Isaiah 60:12 has to be involving what Isaiah 60:11, 20 is involving. But isn't the NHNE supposed to be after the GWTJ according to most interpreters? Except how can Isaiah 60:12 be meaning after the GWTJ, though? And how can Isaiah 60:12 not be involving what Isaiah 60:11, 20 is pertaining to in Revelation 21?

 

[grafted branch]

I happen to think, though I'm a Premil, and regardless most Premils disagree, the new Jerusalem is on the earth at the beginning of the millennium. It doesn't make sense it could be meaning the old Jerusalem if the following per Ezekiel 38 happens in the end of this age involving the 2nd coming.

There are some translations that show the verb tense of “beloved city” in Revelation 20:9 as having been beloved. When I look at the Greek rendering of that verse, that is how it appears on Biblehub.com.



Berean Literal Bible
And they marched up over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the saints and the city having been beloved. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.



The verb is in the perfect tense which means …

The perfect tense or aspect is a verb form that indicates that an action or circumstance occurred earlier than the time under consideration, often focusing attention on the resulting state rather than on the occurrence itself.

No doubt the Old Testament Jerusalem was beloved, and the resulting state of that Jerusalem was that it burned with fire. When I look at that way, it would be impossible for New Jerusalem to be the city in Revelation 20:9.

 

[Davidpt]

There are some translations that show the verb tense of “beloved city” in Revelation 20:9 as having been beloved. When I look at the Greek rendering of that verse, that is how it appears on Biblehub.com.



Berean Literal Bible
And they marched up over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the saints and the city having been beloved. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.



The verb is in the perfect tense which means …

The perfect tense or aspect is a verb form that indicates that an action or circumstance occurred earlier than the time under consideration, often focusing attention on the resulting state rather than on the occurrence itself.

No doubt the Old Testament Jerusalem was beloved, and the resulting state of that Jerusalem was that it burned with fire. When I look at that way, it would be impossible for New Jerusalem to be the city in Revelation 20:9.

Even if I looked at it the way you are, except I wouldn't be applying it to 70 AD, but even so, it would be impossible that the old Jerusalem can be meant, based on that every wall falls to the ground when Christ returns. Keeping in mind, I'm meaning Ezekiel 38:20 in this case. And if every wall falls to the ground at the time, including Jerusalem, well something has to replace it, obviously. How about a new Jerusalem?

And that per my view, what Ezekiel 38-39 is pertaining to is not what Revelation 20:7-9 is pertaining to. IOW, Ezekiel 38-39 involve the end of this age and Revelation 20:7-9 involves after the millennium that follows the 2nd coming. Once again, if every wall falls to the ground before the millennium begins, they are not going to be rebuilding old Jerusalem during the millennium since it would be in vain to destroy it then rebuild it, therefore, they will be replacing it with something better instead. IOW, with something that can never be destroyed. The NJ fits that to a T.

 

[grafted branch]

Even if I looked at it the way you are, except I wouldn't be applying it to 70 AD, but even so, it would be impossible that the old Jerusalem can be meant, based on that every wall falls to the ground when Christ returns. Keeping in mind, I'm meaning Ezekiel 38:20 in this case. And if every wall falls to the ground at the time, including Jerusalem, well something has to replace it, obviously. How about a new Jerusalem?

And that per my view, what Ezekiel 38-39 is pertaining to is not what Revelation 20:7-9 is pertaining to. IOW, Ezekiel 38-39 involve the end of this age and Revelation 20:7-9 involves after the millennium that follows the 2nd coming. Once again, if every wall falls to the ground before the millennium begins, they are not going to be rebuilding old Jerusalem during the millennium since it would be in vain to destroy it then rebuild it, therefore, they will be replacing it with something better instead. IOW, with something that can never be destroyed. The NJ fits that to a T.

I actually agree with most of what you’re saying, the old Jerusalem falls, and is replaced with New Jerusalem. For the Jews, in the first century, who believed, once the old Jerusalem fell it wasn’t rebuilt. New Jerusalem had to have been what replaced it.

Our main disagreement would be on when these things take place.

 

[CTK]

1. At Christ’s Return (Revelation 19:19-21):
   • The beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire (final and permanent).
   • The wicked alive at His return are killed physically (not yet judged). (FIRST DEATH -PHYSICAL)

Comment: I don't believe anyone has an issue with the above.

1. During the Millennium (Revelation 20:1-6):
   • The righteous reign with Christ.
   • The wicked dead remain in their graves.

Comment: I don't believe anyone has an issue with the above.

1. After the Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10):
   • The wicked dead are resurrected to join Satan’s final rebellion. (FIRST RESURRECTION OF WICKED)
   • Fire from heaven devours their rebellion (ends their physical presence again). Gog / Magog (SECOND DEATH OF WICKED)
   • Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

Comment: I don't believe anyone has an issue with the above.

1. The Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15):
   • The wicked are resurrected and judged according to their deeds. (SECOND RESURRECTION OF WICKED AFTER MILLENIUM ?)
   • They are cast into the lake of fire, symbolizing eternal separation from God. (THIRD DEATH OF WICKED?)

I don't believe this is a literal "another" resurrection and destruction" of the wicked. This will indeed take place but this must be reflective or symbolic of the judgement that has already occurred. God is only judging the wicked here and this speaks to those not found in the book of life. The wicked dead are only raised once to be judged by God and they will be destroyed only once.

The other option that was considered was that "Gog and Magog" might have represented the fallen angels who were with Satan and they were destroyed, thus still leaving the wicked dead to be raised.... but there is nothing in the Scriptures that even hints of this ....

 

[grafted branch]

1. During the Millennium (Revelation 20:1-6):
   • The righteous reign with Christ.
   • The wicked dead remain in their graves.

Comment: I don't believe anyone has an issue with the above.

Well I would disagree that the “rest of the dead” are in graves, I think they are spiritually dead but physically alive.