Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[grafted branch]

Genesis? LOL

Genesis 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

 

[Davidpt]

For any person to claim Ezekiel Chapter 39 is a future battle where wooden weapons turn into moder day weapons and add to that claims of a future return from a captivity is?

Laughable, Aesops Fables, Sci-Fi, Big Smiles!

IOW, if some of us correct this means you are basically mocking what God is going to do in the future. I'll just leave it that. I wrote some more things as well but decided to delete them before I posted this.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Genesis 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

LOL. What Genesis plagues were that exactly?

Maybe you misunderstood genesis with exdous plagues - the one that are similar to revelation plagues?

 

[Davidpt]

No, Revelation 20 and Ezekiel 38/39 are speaking about the same event.

I don't agree they are and here are a few reasons why. Revelation 20:7-9 involve people God is not hiding His face from. Ezekiel 38-39 involve people God is hiding His face from until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

This is obviously, thus undeniably, meaning after God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude. No way are the camp of saints meant in Revelation 20:7-9 meaning someone that doesn't already know He is the Lord their God. The passage above indicates that after they see His judgment, the house of Israel shall know that He is the LORD their God from that day and forward. As if the camp of the saints meant in Revelation 20:7-9 would not already know that but wouldn't know it until He has executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude first. It is details like this that destroy interpretations such as yours, not agree with interpretations such as yours instead.

 

[grafted branch]

Good research on the history and battles, Ezekiel Chapter 32 is pretty much self explanatory of the nation's and battles IMHO that would fulfill Ezekiel Chapter 38-39 but I refrain form distracting from the simple facts in Ezekiel Chapter 39 in the battle taking place with wooden weapons (Verses 9-10) and the detailed explanation of Israel's return after their Babylonian Captivity (Verses 27-28)

For any person to claim Ezekiel Chapter 39 is a future battle where wooden weapons turn into moder day weapons and add to that claims of a future return from a captivity is?

Laughable, Aesops Fables, Sci-Fi, Big Smiles!

Ezekiel 39:29Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.



God says the next redemptive event after the events of Ezekiel 38-39 is the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the house of Israel. According to Peter, that event happened at Pentecost in Acts 2. Therefore, the events of Ezekiel 38-39 must have taken place before Pentecost in Acts 2, which occurred in the first century. Which means Ezekiel 38-39 cannot be a future prophecy. Instead, these prophecies were fulfilled in ancient history.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL. What Genesis plagues were these exactly?

Maybe you are confused Genesis with EXDOUS plagues - the one that are similar to revelation plagues?

 

[TribulationSigns]

I don't agree they are and here are a few reasons why. Revelation 20:7-9 involve people God is not hiding His face from. Ezekiel 38-39 involve people God is hiding His face from until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

This is obviously, thus undeniably, meaning after God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude. No way are the camp of saints meant in Revelation 20:7-9 meaning someone that doesn't already know He is the Lord their God. The passage above indicates that after they see His judgment, the house of Israel shall know that He is the LORD their God from that day and forward. As if the camp of the saints meant in Revelation 20:7-9 would not already know that but wouldn't know it until He has executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude first. It is details like this that destroy interpretations such as yours, not agree with interpretations such as yours instead.

I do not believe you fully understood the timing and nature of God's judgment in Ezekiel 38/39. I will not waste any more of my time here as I can see many of you are still stuck with carnal interpretation and looking for history for fulfillment to fit their doctrine.

See ya!

 

[Davidpt]

Ezekiel 39:29Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.



God says the next redemptive event after the events of Ezekiel 38-39 is the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the house of Israel. According to Peter, that event happened at Pentecost in Acts 2. Therefore, the events of Ezekiel 38-39 must have taken place before Pentecost in Acts 2, which occurred in the first century. Which means Ezekiel 38-39 cannot be a future prophecy. Instead, these prophecies were fulfilled in ancient history.

This would be a valid argument, only if God already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude before the time involving Acts 2 occurred. Clearly, Ezekiel 39:29 is meaning after He executes that judgment, not prior to it instead.

 

[grafted branch]

LOL. What Genesis plagues were that exactly?

Maybe you misunderstood genesis with exdous plagues - the one that are similar to revelation plagues?

I’m asking you. The first plagues mentioned in the Bible are the plagues in Genesis 12:7. Were these plagues spiritual or literal? If they were literal then that would agree with the idea that first comes the natural then the spiritual.

We’ll get to the Exodus plagues next, I’m thinking you’ll probably argue that they were spiritual plagues and not literal plagues.

 

[Davidpt]

I do not believe you fully understood the timing and nature of God's judgment in Ezekiel 38/39. I will not waste any more of my time here as I can see many of you are still stuck with carnal interpretation and looking for history for fulfillment to fit their doctrine.

See ya!

IOW, you can't refute what I submitted, so just blame it on my carnal mind then. That way you don't have to deal with any of my arguments. What a cop out on your part.

 

[grafted branch]

This would be a valid argument, only if God already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude before the time involving Acts 2 occurred. Clearly, Ezekiel 39:29 is meaning after He executes that judgment, not prior to it instead.

Well that argument is valid because Esther does describe the events that show Ezekiel 38-39 were fulfilled prior to Pentecost.

 

[Davidpt]

Well that argument is valid because Esther does describe the events that show Ezekiel 38-39 were fulfilled prior to Pentecost.

Point out some things that Esther records that agrees with things Ezekiel 38-39 records. A good place to start would be to show us in Esther what matches, thus agrees with what Ezekiel 38:16-23 records.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I’m asking you. The first plagues mentioned in the Bible are the plagues in Genesis 12:7. Were these plagues spiritual or literal? If they were literal then that would agree with the idea that first comes the natural then the spiritual.

Listen. What plagues were these exactly in Genesis 12:7? Locusts? Fire? Hail? No? Any record of it?

We’ll get to the Exodus plagues next, I’m thinking you’ll probably argue that they were spiritual plagues and not literal plagues.

Do you think so? Are you reading my mind? What made you think I see the plagues of Exodus as spiritual? Why is that?

 

[quietthinker]

Where is this concept taught anywhere in scripture? Once the wicked dead are resurrected, they will be judged (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29). They will not be allowed to roam around on the earth after that. In Revelation 20, "Gog and Magog" number "as the sand of the sea" and are from "the four quarters of the earth" and that represents all of the living wicked on earth who oppose the church.

It is taught in Revelation 20:7-9

 

[TribulationSigns]

Well that argument is valid because Esther does describe the events that show Ezekiel 38-39 were fulfilled prior to Pentecost.

LOL. Not at all.

 

[Truth7t7]

This would be a valid argument, only if God already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude before the time involving Acts 2 occurred. Clearly, Ezekiel 39:29 is meaning after He executes that judgment, not prior to it instead.

Ezekiel Chapter 39 was fulfilled long ago, when the battle was fought with wooden weapons, when Israel returned from their Babylonian Captivity to Jerusalem to build the temple seen in Ezekiel Chapters 40-46

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A False dramatic claim in a personal attack, it's typical of Spiritual Israelite when backed into a corner, time and again

Stating facts about your childishness is not a personal attack. It's an observation that is shared by many. If you think it's okay to be rude and childish, I can't force you to think otherwise. But, I will criticize you for it and call you out on it time and again. It makes it hard for anyone to take you seriously.

It's my opinion that you follow many points of reformed preterist eschatology in 70AD fulfillment, and this reformed teaching removes the future "Literal Second Coming" seen in Matthew 24:29-31 with the explanation that it's not "Literal" but a "Symbolic" judgement upon Israel, perfectly in line with your suggested hypothetical theory presented, correct me if I'm wrong, possibly you do see a future "Literal" second coming in Matthew 24:29-31?

It's my opinion that you either have poor reading comprehension or a bad memory (or both) because I have told you multiple times that I believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is about a literal second coming of Jesus Christ bodily.

As I also have already told you several times, I believe only a small part of the Olivet Discourse is about what happened in 70 AD. Jesus very explicitly said at the beginning of Matthew 24 (and Mark 13 and Luke 21) that the temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed and one of the questions the disciples asked Him was about that. So, to think that Jesus said nothing at all about that in the Olivet Discourse is just ludicrous. But, unlike the preterists that you falsely accuse me of agreeing with, I do not see Matthew 24:29-31 or the majority of the Olivet Discourse as being about what happened in 70 AD.

Now that I've told you this again, I wonder how long it will take for you to forget it?

Yes I agree Gog/Magog represent the entire world nations, scripture clearly teaches that the event of gathering and battle in Revelation Chapters 16,19, 20 are the same event in parallel teachings

Right. But, what I said before that you rudely responded to was just a case of wondering if it was possible that Revelation 20:7-9 explains the real meaning of Ezekiel 38-39 instead of seeing that as talking about a battle that occurred in the past. I don't know for sure one way or another and my doctrine is not dependent on that. It's just something interesting to talk about in relation to an undeniably difficult passage (Ezekiel 38-39).

The evidence is presented very clearly below, if you disagree that's your prerogative

Ezekiel Chapter 39 surrounds Israel's return from the Babylonian Captivity To (Israel/Jerusalem) the battle and event's seen took place "Long Ago" with "Wooden Weapons", Bows, Arrows, Spears, Shields

What evidence is that? There's nothing to disagree with since you are not presenting any evidence to support your claim. But, let me make it clear again that this is not a big deal to me and my doctrine is not dependent on the correct interpretation of Ezekiel 39 since doctrine should be founded on more clear and straightforward passages than that.

Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 surrounds the building of the 2nd Zerubabbel Temple in Jerusalem In 536BC

What evidence, if any, do you have to indicate that the 2nd Zerubabbel Temple in Jerusalem that was built around 536BC resembled what is described in Ezekiel 40-46? I'm just wondering how you came to this conclusion. It helps if you actually back up your claims with some kind of evidence, but maybe that doesn't matter to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ezekiel 39:29Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.



God says the next redemptive event after the events of Ezekiel 38-39 is the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the house of Israel. According to Peter, that event happened at Pentecost in Acts 2. Therefore, the events of Ezekiel 38-39 must have taken place before Pentecost in Acts 2, which occurred in the first century. Which means Ezekiel 38-39 cannot be a future prophecy. Instead, these prophecies were fulfilled in ancient history.

This is what currently makes the most sense to me as well. Clearly, the time when God poured out His Spirit on the house of Israel was on the day of Pentecost long ago, so I don't know how anyone would not think of Acts 2 when reading that verse.

I still don't know if Ezekiel 38-39 is describing a literal physical battle with ancient weapons, though. Is there any historical evidence of any kind to show that such a battle actually took place?

 

[Truth7t7]

Let's look at some of this some more.

Ezekiel 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

And what happened once Christ came 2000 years ago? Many of them rejected Him, which hardly fits this part---When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

And guess what else? and have left none of them any more there--obviously means being expelled from the land will never happen again ever at this point. Except the opposite of what this says happened, meaning 70 AD. IOW, 70 AD contradicts---and have left none of them any more there. Therefore, when this is meaning---but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there--is meaning post 70 AD not prior to it. Now there is no contradiction since God isn't someone who contradicts Himself like fallible humans have Him doing on occasion.

Dave your grasping at straw flying around in a Tornado again

Ezekiel 39:9-10 wooden weapons of warfare "Fulfilled"

Ezekiel 39:27-28 Israel returns from their 70 year Babylonian Captivity "Fulfilled"

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is taught in Revelation 20:7-9

Where does Revelation 20:7-9 indicate that those who go up against "the camp of the saints" had previously been resurrected?