Reasons why the Jehovah’s Witness religion is false (Despite my love for them as human beings)

[RedFan]

You don’t really believe that deception was going to look like anything but the real McCoy did you?

I don't see it as deception. I respect opposing views of course, including by modern-day Arians like JWs. But I make up my own mind on things regardless of the teachings of my Church, whose views I also respect. This is a free-thinking Trinitarian you're talking to.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't see it as deception.

If you did, you would reject it out of hand, wouldn’t you?
As a man versed in the law, does the circumstantial evidence of the church, convict those who disagree?
Have you studied evidence for the other side or are you biased because your clients are members of your “family”? Would that conflict of interest be permissible in a court of law?

I respect opposing views of course, including by modern-day Arians like JWs.

I’d like to clarify this point….just because we do not believe in the trinity, doesn’t make us Arians.

In one of the few writings of Arius that has survived, he claims that God is beyond comprehension, even for the Son. In line with this, historian H. M. Gwatkin states in his book The Arian Controversy…. “The God of Arius is an unknown God, whose being is hidden in eternal mystery. No creature can reveal him, and he cannot reveal himself.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses worship neither the “incomprehensible” God of the Trinitarians, nor the “unknown God” of Arius. We agree with the apostle Paul who spoke for all the apostles when he said….. “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are.” (1 Cor 8:6) So “one God” who is “the Father”…..that is our belief. We hold Jesus with due respect and honor as ”the son of God” which is what he called himself.

But I make up my own mind on things regardless of the teachings of my Church, whose views I also respect. This is a free-thinking Trinitarian you're taking to.

I am glad to hear that RF…..we are given intelligence for a reason…..it’s harder to bamboozle intelligent minds but not impossible….all the evidence must be examined with that faculty of free thinking…..how “free” is it really?

 

[RedFan]

historian H. M. Gwatkin states in his book The Arian Controversy…. “The God of Arius is an unknown God, whose being is hidden in eternal mystery. No creature can reveal him, and he cannot reveal himself. Jehovah’s Witnesses worship neither the “incomprehensible” God of the Trinitarians, nor the “unknown God” of Arius. We agree with the apostle Paul who spoke for all the apostles when he said….. “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are.” (1 Cor 8:6) So “one God” who is “the Father”…..that is our belief.

That's true. Alexander's letter to other Mediterranean bishops quotes Arius as saying "The Father also is ineffable to the Son; for neither does the Word perfectly and accurately know the Father, neither can He perfectly see Him." Arius's Thalia states "“God Himself then, in His own nature, is ineffable by all men." Students of neo-Platonism will see that this is little more than a rehash of Plotinus's Enneads. And not at all inconsistent with 1 Cor. 8:6.

But why not quote the entire verse (NWT): "there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."

I doubt I could improve on the observation of Hilary of Poitiers here:

“For if, as you assert, the fact that the Father alone is God has not left to Christ the possibility of Godhead, it must needs be also according to you that the fact of Christ being one Lord does not leave God the possibility of being Lord, seeing that you will have it that to be One must be the essential property of Him Who is One. Hence if you deny that the one Lord Christ is also God, you must needs deny that the one God the Father is also Lord. And what will the greatness of God amount to if He be not Lord, and the power of the Lord if He be not God: since it (viz., the greatness or power) causes that to be God which is Lord, and makes that Lord which is God?”

-- On the Trinity (Book VIII, Paragraph 35).

 

[PS95]

I am a Trinitarian, I worship with Trinitarians, I know Trinitarian doctrine from the Roman Catholic and the Anglican perspectives at least -- and at the tender age of 69 I can say that I never once heard anyone suggest that God raised himself from the dead -- much less that God "died" (or ever could die) so as to be in need of getting raised. I have heard only that the physical body of Jesus Christ, the Son of God who had "emptied himself" of various equal-to-God attributes and powers (Phil. 2:6-7) when he became man, died physically -- and was raised by the Father, not of his own power (one of the powers he had emptied himself of).

Hi Redfan,
I agree with you about not hearing much from fellow believers about who raised Jesus because we all know it was God. However, the reason that believers will also show that the Son or the Holy Spirit also were involved is because people like these Jws are constantly attacking the faith.
Here are just a few verses to show what I mean. Yep, seems three were involved in the resurrection, unless we don't want to believe what it plainly says..

God the Father-
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead)

God-
Acts 2:24 But God raised Him from the dead, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Son-
John 2:19-21 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days, I will raise it up." 20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

John 10:17-18
For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.

Spirit-
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[PS95]

@Kiew Would you repond to my Q? Here is the link. Thanks

Q for JW- KIEW?

Hi Kiew, you've stated this a couple of times now on another thread-- "Romans 6:7-Acquitted of all sin at death. The judgement God gave to all men=The wages of sin = death. Once dead have paid in full the wages of sin. Gods pure justice could not rejudge one on past sins once they died and paid...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[RedFan]

Now I don’t know how anyone with a modicum of comprehension can read into those words that the son is somehow equal to his God and Father…..

Equal in substance, not in personhood, Aunty.

My modicum of comprehension suggests that if the Son deemed equality with God as not something to be "grasped at" but rather something for him to "empty himself" of, he did not retain what he had prior to his incarnation. And it was restored to him after his ascension. In between those two events, while he was walking the planet, when he was obedient to the Father, the Son was not equal.

 

[Marymog]

I wanted to hear what you have to say…..I wanted you to tell me what your church teaches. Surely you must know…..I wanted to hear it from you so that I know how much you know about the beliefs of your church. Most Catholic people I have encountered in my ministry over many years, have been clueless…..leaving it to the church to know it all for them. Protestants are not much better. It’s a sad kind of laziness but the devil loves it.

Me knowing or telling you what The Church teaches has NOTHING to do with your alleged knowledge of what The Church teaches. What you are saying makes no sense......It doesn't matter what I THINK the teachings of The Church are. You have made it clear that you are against the teachings of The Church. That is our discussion. Our discussion isn't if you are against MY teachings or what I believe the teachings of The Church are.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Do I believe that those who began to stir in those early days (at the end of the 19th century, and on into the 20th) would separate themselves from Christendom and their RCC derived doctrines….YES I do….and they have been persecuted ever since, just as the Jews persecuted the early Christians.

Do I believe them to be prophets? NO. I believe them to be led by God’s spirit and to to see them gradually pull away from Christendom altogether, just as the early Christians did with Judaism. With time comes knowledge and also the implementation of that knowledge that was to be revealed only at that time. Why would a ‘purifying, cleansing and refining’ be needed unless Christianity had been severely polluted?

History repeats because the devil has no new tricks…..look back and see. The apostasy that Christ foretold was beginning back in the first century, so what came after was the “falling away“ in full swing that we saw with the implementation of Roman Catholicism, as the “state religion” of the Empire, which took Christianity down a very dark path….no wonder a “purifying, cleansing and refining” were needed…

You asked…..

Well Jane, first off, let's get the facts straight so we can have an honest discussion. Your JW men didn't 'separate themselves from RCC derived doctrines'. They separated themselves from Protestant men and teachings and doctrines. You are right when you said your men separated from Christendom. I'm glad we can agree on that.

I find it fascinating that you don't believe the men who created your religion are prophets. Your JW men define a Prophet as: One through whom divine purposes are made known. Prophets acted as spokesmen for God, conveying not only predictions but also Jehovah’s teachings, commands, and judgments.

With that said, it appears to me that you do not believe that Russell or anyone that started your religion had any "divine purposes" made known to them. You do not believe that Russell or anyone that started your religion "acted as spokesmen for God". None of them were authorized by God to convey predictions, Jehovah’s teachings, commands, and judgments. It makes we wonder. Why are you a JW?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Equal in substance, not in personhood, Aunty.

Can you show me where it says that in Scripture? I know it is suggested, but a suggestion is just a suggestion without some evidence to substantiate it. Does the Bible suggest that God has multiple personalities? Does God talk to himself whilst existing in different locations? Do they pray to one another?
Do they worship each other?
Where does the Bible speak of ”substance”?

Rev 3:12 was written well after Jesus’ ascension to heaven where he assumed his previous “form” and position held prior.....except that Phil 2 tells us that he was exalted and given a name higher than what he had before.....are not red flags being raised here? This scripture tells us that even in heaven, Yahweh/Jehovah is still the God of the resurrected Jesus..... he says so four times in that one verse.....
“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.” (NASB)
Do you see his “new name” also mentioned there? Phil 2 also talks about Jesus receiving a new name. Who is it that bestows this new name on Jesus?

My modicum of comprehension suggests that if the Son deemed equality with God as not something to be "grasped at" but rather something for him to "empty himself" of, he did not retain what he had prior to his incarnation. And it was restored to him after his ascension. In between those two events, while he was walking the planet, when he was obedient to the Father, the Son was not equal.

Phil 2 says that Jesus existed in God’s “form”....so, what “form” does God have? John tells us that “God is a spirit” and Paul tells us that God is “invisible”(John 4:24; Col 1:15) So like all other entities that exist in the spirit realm, Jesus too was an invisible spirit, who willingly “emptied himself” of his heavenly glory to assume the role of redeemer for the human race.

While walking the planet Jesus was a human son of God....before and after, he was still “the son of God” but in spirit form. That is what Scripture tells me when I don’t have a unscriptural church doctrine standing in the way, forcing me to ignore all the Scripture that contradicts it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Me knowing or telling you what The Church teaches has NOTHING to do with your alleged knowledge of what The Church teaches. What you are saying makes no sense......It doesn't matter what I THINK the teachings of The Church are. You have made it clear that you are against the teachings of The Church. That is our discussion. Our discussion isn't if you are against MY teachings or what I believe the teachings of The Church are.

Mary

Nice distraction.....make me wonder now how much you actually do know about what your church teaches....I wasn’t aware that our “discussion” had restrictions attached....are you running away now....?

Well Jane, first off, let's get the facts straight so we can have an honest discussion. Your JW men didn't 'separate themselves from RCC derived doctrines'. They separated themselves from Protestant men and teachings and doctrines. You are right when you said your men separated from Christendom. I'm glad we can agree on that.

What Christendom as a whole teaches...i.e. it’s foundational doctrines, all originated with the RCC. What Protestantism did was lop off the more insane doctrines that it tried to pass off as Scriptural......the adoration of Mary, purgatory, miracles being the criteria for sainthood dictated by the church, transsubstantiation, the immaculate conception and bodily assumption of Mary, religious images given adoration in worship, praying to Mary and the saints as mediators...the use of prayer beads and the endless repetition of prayers, the confessional and being given absolution by an equally sinful man.......the list is a long one, but Christendom does not teach what the Bible does....

I find it fascinating that you don't believe the men who created your religion are prophets. Your JW men define a Prophet as: One through whom divine purposes are made known. Prophets acted as spokesmen for God, conveying not only predictions but also Jehovah’s teachings, commands, and judgments.

The last prophet that the Bible speaks of is Jesus Christ....he is God’s most important prophet since Moses. And Moses himself spoke of the prophet like himself who would come to God’s people and liberate them.

Jesus said that “the truth will set you free”....but freedom from what? False religious teachings that burden people down, like hellfire and purgatory. Catholics had no compunction in following the example of their fiendish god....burning people alive at the stake....in that dark time in history.

With that said, it appears to me that you do not believe that Russell or anyone that started your religion had any "divine purposes" made known to them. You do not believe that Russell or anyone that started your religion "acted as spokesmen for God". None of them were authorized by God to convey predictions, Jehovah’s teachings, commands, and judgments. It makes we wonder. Why are you a JW?

That is not what Daniel prophesied...was it?
He simply said that God would provide a “purification, cleansing and refining” of those who followed the lead of his spirit at “the time of the end”.....Daniel was told....”Go on your way, Daniel, for these words are to be kept secret and remain sealed until the end time. “Many shall be purified, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will persist in their evil ways.”
“The time of the end” came and the cleansing and refining took place. I follow the lead of those who took action to divorce themselves from the charlatans. We have been under the guidance of “the faithful slave” ever since. (Matt 24:45) He is not a single entity but a composite slave made up of a body of elders whose role it is to “feed” Christ’s sheep, their “food at the proper time”. We are not only well fed, but globally unified in our beliefs and practices. We follow what Christ taught, and are not swayed by politics or worldly aspirations. (1 John 2:15-17) Nor will we take up arms to kill enemies of our governments. (Matt 5:43-44)
It is obvious who persisted in their evil ways, misrepresenting God to the masses for centuries and retaining their false beliefs down to this day. It makes me wonder.....Why are you Catholic?

 

[MonoBiblical]

Imagine that. One serving a non existent trinity god actually thinks they know something.

The word is idol, and I do know it is just an idol. Imagine that.

 

[RedFan]

Can you show me where it says that in Scripture? I know it is suggested, but a suggestion is just a suggestion without some evidence to substantiate it. Does the Bible suggest that God has multiple personalities? Does God talk to himself whilst existing in different locations? Do they pray to one another?
Do they worship each other?
Where does the Bible speak of ”substance”?

It is not expressly stated in Scripture, it is only implied. That's why I don't rely just on Scripture for my belief.
The suggestions of multiple "persons" is implicit in the plural form of Elohim, but this, too, is not expressly stated. And God doesn't talk to Himself, even if it were proper to think of Father and resurrected Son in different locations (God is omnipresent everywhere). No, they don't worship "each other" -- that phrase doesn't really apply to the Deity.

Where does the Bible speak of substance? Beats me. Is it important that Scripture describe the essence or substance of God?

We are getting into a banned topic now, so I'll PM you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It is not expressly stated in Scripture, it is only implied. That's why I don't rely just on Scripture for my belief.
The suggestions of multiple "persons" is implicit in the plural form of Elohim, but this, too, is not expressly stated. And God doesn't talk to Himself, even if it were proper to think of Father and resurrected Son in different locations (God is omnipresent everywhere). No, they don't worship "each other" -- that phrase doesn't really apply to the Deity.

Where does the Bible speak of substance? Beats me. Is it important that Scripture describe the essence or substance of God?

We are getting into a banned topic now, so I'll PM you.

Yes, you describe the dilemma very well and thank you. Much of what is taught is implied but not directly stated.
You basically confirm what I believe about the Hellenization of the Christian faith. If people today do not understand the very beginnings of the faith they claim to practice, then they lose a very valuable tool called “perspective”. There is an agenda at work that the average “church goer” has no knowledge of, and no clue about where it has led them.

It’s a pity that in this particular forum we cannot speak about a topic that is contentious, but not necessarily one to get riled up about. God chooses whom he will invite into his kingdom and none of Jesus’ sheep will be missing. (John 6:44; 65) ‘No one can snatch them out of his hand’.…he said so. This is why the hot heads should be banned and not those who can discuss these topics in a civil fashion. Expose the errors and allow your opponent to answer the charges…..only when you get reliable information, can you make important decisions.…..our faith is the most important decision we could ever make.

 

[Jack]

They left the jewish religion and became baptized in Jesus' new religion.

Guess where Jesus will return. Do you have a clue?

 

[Jack]

Jesus says--John 17:3= The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Paul believed him-1Cor 8:5-6-names only the Father as God after warning ALL other gods are false-- So your post calls Jesus and Paul liars=darkness.

The JW bible calls Jesus "Mighty God", "Everlasting Father", "the Almighty"! You should read it some time!

 

[Jack]

Wow are you blind--Please enlighten the world with your vast knowledge and tell us all who-HIS is at Matt 6:33

Why do JW's AVOID quoting Scripture?

 

[Keiw]

Why do JW's AVOID quoting Scripture?

All true followers know Matt 6:33 by heart already. Its a super important teaching, how can they not know it?

 

[Keiw]

Guess where Jesus will return. Do you have a clue?

No matter what i say, even if its in the bible in simple english a 10 year old can understand you will say something else in your false reasonings.

 

[Jack]

All true followers know Matt 6:33 by heart already. Its a super important teaching, how can they not know it?

Do you need permission from the WatchTower to quote Scripture?

 

[Jack]

No matter what i say, even if its in the bible in simple english a 10 year old can understand you will say something else in your false reasonings.

Almost nothing JW's say is in the Bible.