No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

[GracePeace]

Here is the difference. You do it to keep yourself saved. You do Not trust god to change you you think you have to do it yourself

Well good luck with that. Other people will try to show their works to god also.

Well, see, that's part of the discussion--these and many other particulars, but always based on Scriptures, have had to be hashed out.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, see, that's part of the discussion--these and many other particulars, but always based on Scriptures, have had to be hashed out.

Scripture is clear

We have been saved by grace through faith. Not by works

 

[GracePeace]

Scripture is clear

We have been saved by grace through faith. Not by works

And we've been through all my responses to these claims, and you've come up short in terms of answers. You are not of assistance in the matter, because, the way I see it, I'm believing ALL Scripture, whereas you are highlighting a couple of your favorite verses as your entire religion.

Your way of thinking is not "damnable heresy"--it procures grace--but I'm not interested in that alone. If I was, I'd just give up on believing Scripture, and just fall in line as a Catholic, or an Orthodox, or a Calvinist, or an Arminian, since they all have varying measures of grace--I'm interested in actually believing Scripture.

 

[GracePeace]

I [...] prefer eternal security.

You believe in eternal security? LOL Surprise.

 

[GracePeace]

So, there is a problem : according to John 15:5-10 and 1 Jn 3:23,24, we abide in Him by keeping His commands (i. believe in the Name of God's Son, and ii. love one another)--seemingly offering the only satisfactory explanation for how the one who sins "is condemned" (Ro 14:23), yet "no condemnation" for the one who is "in Christ" (Ro 8:1)--whereas those who do not remain shrink back in shame (Heb 10:38,39; 1 Jn 2:28), and, yet, it says,

1 John 1:7-10 If we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Note : In case it is helpful, Christ, the Light, is in God, and God is in Christ, the Light. I was confused about "as He Himself is in the Light", because it sounded like God was "dependent" on something (which I couldn't accept), but, with Christ's statement about His being in God and God being in Him, it "makes sense" and I can accept it.

1. If it is not the case that instances of sinning are not instances of not remaining in Christ--because remaining is by obeying--then what is the explanation for how there is no condemnation for those in Christ, yet the "true believer", who is to comport himself by the rule "each is to be fully convinced in his own mind", but who breaks that rule (by doing something he was wavering about, he did something that did not come from faith), is condemned?

2. There is a contingency : IF we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light. Not all walk in the Light. That's precisely the issue : "remain in Him". How? By obeying His commands to i. believe in His Name and ii. love one another.

3. The ones who do not remain in Him shrink back in shame (Heb 10:38,39; 1 Jn 2:28) : whereas "all have sinned", only some will be resurrected to "shame and contempt" over their sins (Dn 12:2). The ones who are not "remaining" refer, in part, to the ones who are not humbly trusting in the mercy of God on their sins (breaking the command to believe in the Name of God's Son), who proudly assert and go about to establish their own righteousness, ipso facto, rebelling against and suppressing the truth of God's righteousness (Ro 10:3) in forgiving our sins (1 Jn 1:9). To be forgiven, you have to admit unrighteousness--this requires humility, but loving the world, boasting (1 Jn 2:15-17), could be preventing a person from walking in the humble truth even when they know it (Jn 12:42,32). Ipso facto, they're not remaining by not believing in the Name of the Son of God, and that will result in "shame and contempt" not "life" (Dn 12:2; Heb 10:38,39), because they're not remaining by obeying.

4. Yes, people do sin, fail to love one another, fail to walk in faith, and, yes, that does result in their "condemnation" (Ro 14:23), not their "justification" (Ro 2:10, 13; James 2:24), but if they resort to obeying the first part of the command, believing in the Name of God's Son, confessing their sin and being forgiven, then, yes, they can preserve/restore the fellowship that was being endangered by the sin.

5. In the OT, there were sins people could commit unawares--as Paul said, "For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me."

Leviticus 4
13If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the LORD’s commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt...
22“When a leader sins, doing unintentionally any one of all the things that by the commandments of the LORD his God ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt...
27“If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the LORD’s commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt...

So, if the idea is that a person sins and is not apart from Christ, it may refer to the difference between someone who realizes his guilt during the commission of sin, who would be following idols (1 Jn 5:21), so that they don't remain (1 Jn 2:28), and the person who does not realize his guilt, who unintentionally sins, which would not count as following idols away from Jesus (afterward, at some point, God makes known to them that they sinned, and they have the opportunity to repent).

@CadyandZoe Irrespective whether you want to quibble about "in Him is no sin", etc, we can known that we abide in Him by keeping His commands (Jn 15:5-10; 1 Jn 3:23,24).

 

[GodsGrace]

And we've been through all my responses to these claims, and you've come up short in terms of answers. You are not of assistance in the matter, because, the way I see it, I'm believing ALL Scripture, whereas you are highlighting a couple of your favorite verses as your entire religion.

Your way of thinking is not "damnable heresy"--it procures grace--but I'm not interested in that alone. If I was, I'd just give up on believing Scripture, and just fall in line as a Catholic, or an Orthodox, or a Calvinist, or an Arminian, since they all have varying measures of grace--I'm interested in actually believing Scripture.

Catholics, orthodox and even Calvinists have scripture,,,,unfortunately they've added to it, and I don't mean works.

There's no such group as Arminiun.
Arminius was a Calvinist.

What you call Arminiun is just mainline Protestantism.

Do you agree?

I really dislike being referred to as an Arminiun by Calvinists. Because THEY are not in line with mainline Christianity is no excuse to make up a whole new category....

We already have all we need.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul described it for us

1 we work for a wage or reward
2. It is something we can boast of (because we earned it)

It is still something you do to earn a reward god said he will reward us. Our reward may be just the fruit we bear

I once again I am not arguing sanctification so why would you disrespect me and go there again?

Are you also disrespecting me?

WHERE am I going?

I post nothing but verses to you.
YOU do not do the same.

Paul said we work for a reward?

Right.

Now tell us all what you make of the following teaching by Paul:

1 Corinthians 9:24-26
24Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Verse 24 Run the race (what race?) in such a way THAT YOU MAY WIN.
verse 25 WE exercise self-control to receive an IMPERISHABLE WREATH (our salvation).
verse 26 Paul runs the race in such a way, with an aim in mind, and disciplines his body (HE disciplines his body) and makes it his slave - MAKES IT HIS SLAVE, it is not ALREADY his slave, so the HE will not be DISQUALIFIED from the imperishable prize.

If you have a problem understanding what Paul is saying here, I'm afraid that is your problem and has nothing to do with any disrespect you think I have toward you.


You're going to have to read the NT as a WHOLE, ENTIRE IDEA/CONCEPT and not pull out verse you like....
which, BTW, you have not even provided any.

The Holy Spirit HELPS us to obey.
He does not FORCE us to obey.

If you're going to reply, please post scripture supporting your point of view.

 

[GodsGrace]

The characterization, the tenor, of keeping the Law of Faith (ie, "each man is to be fully convinced in his own mind") is "giving thanks" (Ro 14:6; Heb 13:15)--if it is not "giving thanks", then something is deadly wrong.

Not sure I understand what you mean....but I'm pretty sure we'll agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

No person who chooses to be deaf, can ever hear again.

And its not a good thing to tell Jesus's Verse, that its "no substance".
But, if you dont know that by now, you'll not know it anytime soon.

Let me make this very clear to you Behold.
YOUR POST is lacking substance.

What Jesus said and taught - which you do not seem to know -
is life-giving and does NOT LACK SUBSTANCE.

Please don't put words in my mouth.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

You believe in eternal security? LOL Surprise.

Let's go through some definitions:
I believe in Eternal Security because that is what the NT teaches.

Perseverance of the Saints
Calvists /Reformed believe this to be true.
God CHOOSES those that will be saved...so since it's GOD THAT CHOOSES, they teach that a person MUST ACCEPT God's Grace and so he can never lose his salvation.

Of course, this is not true, all they'd have to do is read John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion and they'd come upon some pretty horrifying ideas.


Eternal Security
We can be secure in Christ as long as we are abiding in Him and obeying Him and living a life as He taught us to.
AS LONG AS WE ARE ABIDING IN HIM.

It's possible, as the NT teaches, to abandon God and fall back into our pre-saved state - that is - we become lost again since we do not have Christ, since we are not abiding in Christ.


Once Saved Always Saved
This is a very radical teaching and one to which some Christians hold.
They believe that NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO, they will remain saved because it is JESUS that will save them.
IOW, they believe Jesus does everything and they are not obligated to do anything and, even beyond that, they can live of life of sin and still be saved because at some time in their past they "accepted Jesus" as their Savior.

 

[mailmandan]

Interesting....I'm just seeing this.
No alert....

Have you been reading my posts to EG?
Are you and I having the same misunderstanding?

Are we really discussing OSAS here?

IOW, are you saying that you don't believe works KEEP US SAVED...

Dinner time.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Works keep us saved = "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door.

 

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan

I saw 2 or 3 posts of yours to which I received no alert.
Will try to get to them later....

The not being Christian is a general conclusion I've come to....
If a person believes God requires nothing from him and he could continue in his old life,
then I doubt he should be called a Christian.

This does not mean he's not saved.
Only God can know that.
But it CAN mean that he's following a different religion.
Christianity teaches a transformation in a person which encompasses good works.

No insult intended toward you.
Sorry.

Apology accepted. Genuine Christians, those who truly are born of God, are born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever (1 Peter 1:23) and are new creations in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:17) We have been changed. Genuine Christians are also God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

 

[GodsGrace]

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Works keep us saved = "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door.

OK.
I understand.
You don't believe works KEEP us saved.

It's still not taught in the NT.

Here's John 3:36 again:

36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

The above is beyond clear.
IF we believe in the Son, we are saved/have eternal life....

IF we DO NOT OBEY the Son, the wrath of God abides in that person.

It's speaking of AFTER salvation.

Those that ARE NOT SAVED, are not required to OBEY....
they're already lost....you can't be more lost than lost so no need to obey.

It's the born again, saved believer, that MUST obey God.

IF you could post some scripture to support your ideology, it would be appreciated.
You DO tend to twist the verses you post to suit your needs.
How about a clear verse that states what YOU think is taught in the NT?

 

[mailmandan]

GodsGrace said: But it doesn't say this MD.
Matthew 7:22 does not speak of saved or unsaved,,,
it does not even speak of works...and it does Not speak of IN CHRIST ALONE.

Matthew 7:22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Other translations say mighty works. Depart from Me, I never knew you = unsaved. How are we saved? Through faith IN CHRIST ALONE and not by works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Faith in works is not faith in Christ alone.

It only states that they practiced lawlessness.
Jesus did not KNOW THEM because they practiced lawlessness.

Jesus did not know them because He had no personal relationship with them (John 17:3) which is the cause and practicing lawlessness is the effect. ALL unbelievers in the eyes of God practice lawlessness because their sin remains, which is the opposite of practicing righteousness. (1 John 3:10)

It is only those who do the will of the Father that will enter. verse 21
What is the will of the Father?
That we believe.
What does believe mean?
That Jesus is to be our teacher, our example, our mentor.
We are to FOLLOW HIM.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. To believe does not mean believe in oneself by trusting in works for salvation. I have a Strong's expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible and Pisteuo #4100 says - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ). It goes on to say, pisteuo means not just to believe, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust, and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon. We follow Him because we believe.

It states that trees that do not produce good fruit will be CUT DOWN and thrown into the fire. verse 19

These are bad trees that represent unbelievers/non-Christians.

Why do you find it necessary to eisegete the verses and put your own words into them?
Why is it more comforting to you?
Why can't you just accept what the NT plainly states?

I was explaining the verses and I don't eisegete the verses but properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. I accept what the NT plainly states in context and in harmony with the rest of scripture.

Who didn't have a relationship with Jesus?
You mean the persons in Matthew 7?
Again, I don't read Jesus saying anything about a relationship.
In John 17:3 He's speaking to His disciples (Apostles) and in verse 8 Jesus states that He had given to them the words that the Father gave to Him.

It's obvious that a bad tree that produces bad fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire is not talking believers who have eternal life and know Christ. It's obvious if Jesus never knew such people that they do not know Jesus either and this is eternal life, that they may know you. This is not hard to understand but apparently it is hard for you to accept.

What words?
Perhaps the words, meaning teachings, that Jesus spent over 3 years speaking to His Apostles so they could then go out and teach others?
What would there be to teach anyway if no works are necessary.

Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the very essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain or maintain salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

I suppose we're discussing whether or not good works are NECESSARY.

We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Let me make very plain that I read in the NT that they are.

Is that what you read in Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9?

So, looks like we're back where we began.

I teach salvation by grace through faith, NOT works, and you teach salvation by faith AND works. Huge difference.

Do you believe that God gives us recommendations or do you believe God gives us commands?

God gives us commands but there are commands for salvation and commands after salvation.

Jesus said
IF you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love.....
Just as HE kept God's commandments and abided in His love.
John 15:10

Believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments BECAUSE we know Him and not in order to know Him. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. (This is descriptive of genuine believers) 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (That is descriptive of unbelievers)

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)
Jesus expects us to KEEP HIS WORD.
This sounds to me like it's necessary.

Keep My commandments does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law. Only Jesus Christ met that standard.

Why does this frighten you?

Why would it frighten me? Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was frightened and insecure about my salvation because I was trusting in works for salvation and not in Christ alone. Do you enjoy fear mongering?

Do you not desire to keep God's word?
John 15:14 Jesus said:
"You are My friends IF you do what I COMMAND you."

I absolutely do.

Again, Jesus says no such phrase as a believer or a non-believer.
All Jesus states is that a bad tree will produce bad fruit and a good tree will produce good fruit.
Anything else you add are YOUR words and are not scripture.

So, you really don't understand that a good tree that produces good fruit represents saved believers but a bad tree that produces bad fruit (in contrast) represents lost unbelievers? Do you really need Jesus to spell that out for you?

Sure.
But we've been through this many times MD,
What does BELEIVE mean in the original Greek?

It doesn't mean belief, trust, reliance in self or works salvation. Once again, in the Strong's expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible Pisteuo #4100 - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ). It goes on to say, Pisteuo means not just to believe, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust, and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon.

What does life look like when we believe in Jesus Christ?​

What does our life look like once we believe in Jesus Christ? Does it / should it look any different from before? How can we live out our belief in Christ? This list is not complete, but here are five ways our belief in Jesus Christ will be evident in our life.

Our lives change after we believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation, because we are now born again and have become new creations in Christ. Now there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Live a life of obedience to Jesus.
This means following his commands and seeking to live in a way that honors him. By living a life of obedience to Jesus, we can experience the blessings that come from living in accordance with his will. source: What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus?.

Amen! That is what genuine Christians strive for.

Agreed.
They BELIEVE in Jesus.
They follow His commands.

Following Jesus after we have been saved by grace through faith is the fruit of salvation but not the cause of it.

But you and EG are saying the person is already saved.....
The persons in Matthew may have done wonderful works in Jesus' name....
but they also DID NOT BELIEVE IN HIM.
They practiced lawlessness.
They wanted Him to be their savior....but not their Lord.

These many people in Matthew 7:22-23 were not already saved. They were false converts. Jesus never knew them. They wanted Christ to be their savior on their terms and not His. They refused to believe in Him unto salvation and trusted in their works for salvation instead.

And you were converted more than several years ago.
I've known you for at least 7 or 8.

So, anything more than 7 or 8 years does not mean several? It's been more like 26 years for me.

And you're not supposed to worry about anyone else but yourself....
we cannot all do everything, God gives to each of us a measure of faith to do what HE needs us to do.
(the workers in the vineyard).

Romans 12:3 - For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. God has granted a measure of faith to His children which can mean more responsibility for some in regard to ministry.

 

[mailmandan]

OK.
I understand.
You don't believe works KEEP us saved.

It's still not taught in the NT.

Here's John 3:36 again:

36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

The above is beyond clear.
IF we believe in the Son, we are saved/have eternal life....

IF we DO NOT OBEY the Son, the wrath of God abides in that person.

It's speaking of AFTER salvation.

Those that ARE NOT SAVED, are not required to OBEY....
they're already lost....you can't be more lost than lost so no need to obey.

It's the born again, saved believer, that MUST obey God.

IF you could post some scripture to support your ideology, it would be appreciated.
You DO tend to twist the verses you post to suit your needs.
How about a clear verse that states what YOU think is taught in the NT?

I already thoroughly explained this in post #433. The KJV renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son. This is in harmony with (John 3:15,16,18,6:40,47; 11:25,26)

If John wanted to make obedience/works the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

BTW: Following salvation through believing, believers are characterized by obedience and unbelievers are characterized by disobedience.

 

[mailmandan]

GodsGrace said: I don't know what you're talking about MD.
The talk about trees bearing fruit means this:

Matthew 7:13-23
13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

verses 13-14: There is only one way to reach God. Many will not find it because of the following veses....
verse 15: Here Jesus is discussing those that will come and teach incorrect doctrine. He's speaking about false prophets and teachers....He's not even speaking about saved or unsaved disciples (us).
verse 16: We will know the false prophets by their fruits.
verse 17: Bad prophets/teachers will bear bad fruit. Just like some in those books you read. Read the bible instead - the inspired word of God.
verse 18 - 19: Every bad teacher that bears bad fruit will be cut down. The bad trees that they PRODUCE will be cut down. The ncorrect doctrine that is taught will be cut down.
verse 20: We will know bad teachers by their fruit. How? Because they confuse persons and create a cloud of confusion to JESUS' VERY PLAIN TEACHINGS.
verse 21: Not everyone who thinks they've served Jesus - the teachers and prophets - will enter into heaven, but those that do the will of God.
Verses 22-23: Not everyone who cries LORD, LORD, but those who DID NOT PRACTICE lawlessness.

In context here, Jesus is telling us to beware of false prophets. who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. (vs. 15)

John 15:1-16 is exactly the same. Sometimes reading books is not such a good idea when the ideas presented are not strictly biblical.

Whatever that means.

 

[GodsGrace]

Apology accepted. Genuine Christians, those who truly are born of God, are born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever (1 Peter 1:23) and are new creations in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:17) We have been changed. Genuine Christians are also God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

Verses.
OK



1 Peter 1:17-23
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;
18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.
20For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
21who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
22Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,
23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

24For,
“ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS,
AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS.
THE GRASS WITHERS,
AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF,

25BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.”
And this is the word which was preached to you.

So what does the above state?:

verse 17 The Father will judge us according to our works. So....conduct ourselves with fear during our time on earth.

verse 18 We are not redeemed with perishable things....let's see what is imperishable....

verse 19 We have been bought back with the blood of Christ.

verse 21 Through HIM we are BELIEVERS in God.

verse 22 Through OBEDIENCE TO THE TRUTH we have PURIFIED OUR SOULS. Through obedience we have purfified....

verse 23 What is imperishable? The WORD OF GOD which endures forever....verse 24


So, the Father will judge each one of us on our works.

We are to conduct ourselves in fear, just as Paul said to work out our salvation with fear....let's say it means respect...we STILL HAVE TO WORK IT OUT.

Through Christ we are BELIEVERS in God. Again, what does BELIEVE mean?

Through OBEDIENCE TO THE TRUTH, we have purified our souls --- not the other way around.
THROUGH OBEDIENCE we purify.

And what is imperishable? THE WORD OF GOD.


How does all that support your theory that obedience is NOT necessary?

Because, as I've come to understand, this is what you're saying.
Your idea is: Yes, maybe we work because we want to because we're saved.....
NO!
We work because God DEMANDS IT of us....

As shown above in the very verse you provided.


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2 Corinthians 5:11-17
11Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.
12We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.
13For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.
14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.


Same thing. You don't seem to read around the one verse that you like.
It's called context MD, and I know that you know what it is,,,,,it's just that it's so uncomfortable....


Verse 11 Talk abou tthe fear of the Lord again. And this time it's Paul. Looks like he agrees with Peter. And why not? Jesus taught them.

Verse 12 It's our heart that counts and not outside appearances. God knows what we do for Him and what we do for show.

Verse 14 The love for God must control everything we do. The love of Christ causes us to do good works - it does not state that we don't need to do any good works.

Verse 17 We are new creatures, saved by Christ. And ASKED to do good. And God does not suggest....He commands.
Our old lawless selves of Matthew 7:23 are gone,,,,but even there Jesus states we are to bear good fruit.

***************************************************************************

Yes. Ephesians 2:10
We are created FOR GOOD WORKS.

Doesn't sound like a suggestion to me.
Sounds like that is what WE ARE CREATED FOR.

(for service to the Kingdom of God here on earth).

 

[GodsGrace]

I already thoroughly explained this in post #433. The KJV renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son. This is in harmony with (John 3:15,16,18,6:40,47; 11:25,26)

If John wanted to make obedience/works the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

BTW: Following salvation through believing, believers are characterized by obedience and unbelievers are characterized by disobedience.

This is nonsense MD:
Trying to go to different versions to uphold your incorrect theory.
First of all the greek word BELEIVE has a connotation of OBEY in it.
The greek word UNBELIEF has the connotation of DISOBEDIENCE in it.

You and those that believe as you do desperately add words to what the NT clearly teaches.
And John doesn't need you nor me to put words into his mouth to teach HJM how to say something.
He lived with Jesus for over 3 yeas...I think he knew what he meant when he said that those that do not OBEY the Son will have the wrath of God on them.

Please read to the end.....

John 3:36
New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

New King James Version
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

New American Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

NASB 1995
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

NASB 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Legacy Standard Bible
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Amplified Bible
He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”

Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

American Standard Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Whoever is trusting in The Son, has The Eternal Life, and whoever disobeys The Son shall not see The Life, but the anger of God shall abide upon him.”

Contemporary English Version
Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life. But no one who rejects him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever.

Douay-Rheims Bible
He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

English Revised Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, he will see God's constant anger."

Good News Translation
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God's punishment.

International Standard Version
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Literal Standard Version
he who is believing in the Son has continuous life; and he who is not believing the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Majority Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

New American Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

NET Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him.

New Revised Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

New Heart English Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has everlasting life, but whoever refuses to believe in the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Webster's Bible Translation
He that believeth on the Son, hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Weymouth New Testament
He who believes in the Son has the Life of the Ages; he who disobeys the Son will not enter into Life, but God's anger remains upon him.

World English Bible
One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”


1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

@mailmandan


2 of 2


AND here is what disbelieve means: It's tough to get away from what the NT actually teaches.....

569. apisteó ►

Strong's Concordance apisteó: to disbelieve, be faithless​ Original Word: ἀπιστέω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: apisteó Phonetic Spelling: (ap-is-teh'-o) Definition: to disbelieve, be faithless Usage: I am unfaithful, disbelieve, refuse belief, prove false. HELPS Word-studies Cognate: 569 apistéō (from 571 /ápistos, "unfaithful," without faith, i.e. negating 4103 /pistós, "faithful") – properly, refusing to be persuaded by God ("betray His trust," J. Thayer). 569 /apistéō ("not willing to be persuaded") means more than "disbelieve" ("not believing") because it indicates "refusing to be faithful" (honor a trust or revelation from the Lord). See 571 (apistos). 569/apisteō ("refuse to be persuaded") is sin committed by believers (Mk 16:11; Lk 24:11,41) and unbelievers (Ac 28:24; Ro 3:3; 1 Pet 2:7). 569 (apistéō) reveals a person is unconvinced when they should be persuaded by what the Lord has done (offered). NAS Exhaustive Concordance Word Origin from apistos Definition to disbelieve, be faithless NASB Translation believe (3), disbelieve (1), disbelieved (1), faithless (1), refused to believe (1), would not believe (1). ​ Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 569: ἀπιστέω ἀπιστέω, ἀπίστω; (imperfect ἠπίστουν); 1 aorist ἠπίστησα; (ἄπιστος); 1. to betray a trust, be unfaithful: 2 Timothy 2:13 (opposed to πιστός μένει); Romans 3:3; (others deny this sense in the N. T.; cf. Morison or Meyer on Romans, the passage cited; Ellicott on 2 Timothy, the passage cited). 2. to have no belief, disbelieve: in the news of Christ's resurrection, Mark 16:11; Luke 24:41; with dative of person, Luke 24:11; in the tidings concerning Jesus the Messiah, Mark 16:16 (opposed to πιστεύω) (so 1 Peter 2:7 T Tr WH); Acts 28:24. (In Greek writings from Homer down.)

 

[CadyandZoe]

@CadyandZoe Irrespective whether you want to quibble about "in Him is no sin", etc, we can known that we abide in Him by keeping His commands (Jn 15:5-10; 1 Jn 3:23,24).

No, it's the other way around. We keep his commandments because we abide in him, and we abide in him because we are sanctified by the Spirit of God.