No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

[CadyandZoe]

No, that's not the picture or the language in john 15. Abiding is CONTINGENT on keeping His Word and commands, and branches that don't abide get thrown in the fire.

No, keeping his word and commands are indicative of abiding. And abiding is indicative of being sanctified by the spirit -- being born again.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, salvation was typed by the Jews' deliverance from Egypt (1 Co 10)--Jesus is "our Passover Lam

I accept typology as a valid interpretive method.

Being a slave to sin is a condition where there was no choice but to sin (eg, Ro 7), but that doesn't mean people cannot OPT to sin after beng set free. That's what 1 Co 10 is all about.

Romans 8 isn't talking about being a slave to sin. Paul says that we were freed from the law of sin and death, which is a completely different concept. The point is, those "in Christ" have forgiveness of sins.

 

[Grailhunter]

Beware of the doctrines of men and the cute little theological clichés they cooked up along the way.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry but it's taking me a while to settle in, find my feet, and ensure that I post relevant stuff in relevant threads.

While you're searching for your feet Oneoff, I just want to say that I agree with you.
I just don't understand what it has to do with obeying God....
Let's make it simple, as it should be:
If a person believes in God and obeys God....he's saved.
That's all God asks.

 

[GracePeace]

I see it differently. Consider the opening lines of John 15.

John 15:1-3 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.​

For many years, my eyes would quickly move beyond the sentence I highlighted, which was unfortunate because it is the key sentence in this passage. To "clean" a vine is to prune it to bear more fruit. Jesus says that the eleven were already "clean" because of the word which he spoke to them. He refers to the promise of the Holy Spirit and his teaching. God the Father has already "pruned" the eleven by giving them his Holy Spirit and the ability to continue Jesus' mission with a firm grasp of the Gospel message. He tells them that the Spirit of truth will be "in them." (John 14:17) He also tells them that they will know that "I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)

For this reason, we make mistakes when we understand phrases like "he who keeps my commandments" as open-ended conditional statements. Instead, the conditional statements assume a positive result as if Jesus said, "if you keep my commandments . . . (and I know you will because the Father has already cleaned you) . . . " is the one who loves me." Since the Father is performing the pruning and the Eleven have already been pruned, then none of the eleven will fall away, cease keeping his commandments, stop loving Jesus and etc.

No, after David sinned with Bathsheba, he cried "don't take Your Spirit sway", and Paul says the same, "He who disregards this [prohibition on immorality] disregards not man but God Who gives you His spirit".
Clearly, it's a threat that if you don't keep God's Word about immorality, He will stop supplying you with His Spirit.

Same is true in John 15--the branches that don't abide bc they don't keep His Word, are not supplied with the substance within the Vine (the life is in His Son (1 Jn 5:11), "by the Spirit He has given us" (1 Jn 3:23,24)), so they don't bear fruit, and are thrown in the fire.

The condemnation in Romans 14:23 is different from the condemnation in Romans 8:1. In Romans 8:1, Paul declares that those in Christ are free from eternal damnation. In Romans 14:23, Paul means to say that God disapproves of the one who doubts when he eats the meat. He is not suggesting that the one who acts against his conscience will be subject to eternal damnation.

We've come a long way on this one. First, you denied it was a believer at all. You had lots of permutations that were variations on denying the obvious truth of the matter, and now we're here at another denial.

Paul says the believing Jews were "storing up wrath" by their behavior (Ro 2), and that doesn't sound like they're on the "eternal life" side of things.

I see it differently. The conditional statements found in 1 John 1, assume a positive answer. "If we walk in the light . . . and I know you do . . ."

Conditional "IF". "See" it how ever is convenient for your view.

The key to John 15 is Jesus' word concerning those whom Jesus has chosen. If Jesus has chosen a person, the Father cleans that person so he can bear fruit and he will remain in the vine. (John 15:16)

Nowhere does it say that--and the language is used for the "children" in 1 John.

"And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. " (1 Jn 2:28).

The disciples are the branches--the children are disciples.
The branches abide by keeping the Word--the disciples abide by keeping the commands (1 Jn 3:23 24).
1 John 2:28 says the one who abides has "confidence", and does not draw back in shame. Who has "confidence" in 1 John? The one who keeps His commands. The language "draw back" is the same as in Hebrews 10:38,39, where "If My righteous one draws back My Soul has no pleasure in him... unto destruction." The branches that don't abide are thrown in the fire--the children will be destroyed if they do not abide (by keeping His commands to believe in the Name of God's Son and love others).

Bottom line : there's no ambiguity about what is being said--your reading is very far off.

The condemnation mentioned in Romans 8 is eternal destruction; the condemnation mentioned in Romans 14 is not.

You've come a LONG way in your views on Romans 14:23, but you're still not there.

"Condemn" is an adjudication of the individual based on the evidence presented--it is the opposite of "justify".
This means that, according to Ro 14:23, ongoing and final justifications depend on how we walk--same as is purported in Ro 2:6-16, and James 2, and everywhere else.

 

[GracePeace]

No, keeping his word and commands are indicative of abiding. And abiding is indicative of being sanctified by the spirit -- being born again.

Nope. Or else the children wouldn't be warned to abide.

 

[GracePeace]

I accept typology as a valid interpretive method.

Romans 8 isn't talking about being a slave to sin. Paul says that we were freed from the law of sin and death, which is a completely different concept. The point is, those "in Christ" have forgiveness of sins.

Reread what I said. I denied that the saved were slaves. You're not reading carefully.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nope. Or else the children wouldn't be warned to abide.

I disagree that exhortations toward a behavior are always indicative of a choice.

 

[GodsGrace]

Allow me to cover all the bases with the word obey. Only believers have obeyed Christ by choosing to believe in Him (John 3:36) believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; Galatians 1:11-12) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up in a vain effort to receive salvation based on works. (Matthew 7:22-23) So, in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Agreed.

It's necessary to obey God once we become believers.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Reread what I said. I denied that the saved were slaves. You're not reading carefully.

I'm confused. Sorry. I don't understand what you are trying to say or how your latest post applies to mine.

 

[GracePeace]

I disagree that exhortations toward a behavior are always indicative of a choice.

The branches, disciples, are told to abide--and, if not, they don't receive substance from the Vine, Jesus (the Spirit, eternal life, is in Jesus (1 Jn 3:23,24, 5:11)), so they don't bear fruit, and will eventually be thrown in the fire, and "'My Righteous one will live by faith, but if [My righteous one] shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in [My Righteous one]'... unto destruction." (Heb 10:38,39).

The children are disciples, branches, being told that if they don't abide they will not bear fruit and will be thrown in the fire--they will shrink back in shame and be destroyed, as Hebrews 10 says.

 

[GracePeace]

I'm confused. Sorry. I don't understand what you are trying to say or how your latest post applies to mine.

You said :

But don't bury the lead as they say. Our discussion centers on Romans 8 and what Paul meant to say there about those in Christ who have the Spirit of God and the spirit of Christ. They are not condemned and they never will be condemned.

I said :

Why would it be "burying the lede" for me to point out that you already admitted that some who are in Christ sin sins unto death that separate them from Christ?

You said :

In Romans 8, Paul states that the one in Christ has been freed from the law of sin and death. If someone commits the sin unto death, then that person was never in Christ.

I said :

No, salvation was typed by the Jews' deliverance from Egypt (1 Co 10)--Jesus is "our Passover Lamb".

Egypt was called "the house of bondage", where they were slaves to sin.

Being a slave to sin is a condition where there was no choice but to sin (eg, Ro 7), but that doesn't mean people cannot OPT to sin after beng set free. That's what 1 Co 10 is all about.

So, just because we're saved from slavery to sin doesn't mean we can't sin.

Romans 7 described the life of a Jew in the flesh and under the Law.
1. "when we were in the flesh" : i. "we" : he's speaking to and about Jewish Christians (Ro 7:1) before salvation, ii. "were" it's past-tense, iii. "in the flesh" : Christians are not in the flesh but in the spirit (Ro 8:9)
2. You know he says sin "killed" him--he was dead in sin, but Christians are forgiven and alive.
3. In Ro 7, he couldn't do the good [Law] he willed--but those who walk in the spirit fulfill the Law (Ro 8:4).
("When we were without strength.")
4. In Ro 7, he's covetous; no covetous person has any inheritance in God's Kingdom.
5. In Ro 7, he's "captive"; in Ro 8:2, after Christ, he's "set free".
6. In Ro 7, he wants salvation from the body of death; Christ brought the body of sin to nothing (Ro 6:6).
7. In Ro 7, he finds Sin works its own works in him so that he breaks God's law against his will; in Christ, God works His own works in us, but, as it says, we have a choice to yield our members to God or to sin. This is how the man in Romans 14:23 is "condemned", for yielding his members to sin in doing what he doesn't believe.

So, the point is this : when we were without Christ, we had no choice, but, today, having been delivered from having no choice, we still can sin, just as the Israelites did after having been rescued, and they fell under God's wrath in the wilderness for their sin, and never inherited the promise, which, today, corresponds to eternal life, as Paul says, "Fight the fight of faith. Lay hold on eternal life to which you were called."

So, no, it is not the case that just because we were freed from slavery to sin that we cannot opt to sin. Adam sinned when he was not a slave to sin.

 

[GracePeace]

I disagree that exhortations toward a behavior are always indicative of a choice.

So, before, "oh, no, these 'children' are not believers at all", but, now, after I proved they were believers, "oh, no, just because they're told to do something doesn't mean they have a choice"--you really are funny.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's not nonsense and once again, the KJV renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son. This is in harmony with (John 3:15,16,18,6:40,47; 11:25,26)

There is a difference between obey by choosing to believe in the Son and obedience/works which "follows" believing in the Son unto salvation. Obedience is a manifestation of belief and disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief. You seem determined to turn believing in the Son unto salvation into salvation by obedience/works which "follows" salvation. BTW those translations you cited back up my argument.

The best I can gather is that you believe obedience is a work.

If that's so, then you'll just have to keep believing that.

But it's not anywhere in the NT.

Jesus says we are to LISTEN TO/ACT UPON His words/teachings, Matthew 7:24
eeeeeeee
Paul admonishes us in every letter of his to obey the rules of God:

Romans 13:8-13
8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.
12The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.
14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

After all that Paul says, he also states that we are to make no provision for the flesh.
I don't read that Jesus will do that for us.
Sounds like we must do it ourselves. (with the help of the HELPER, of course)

Again, The Holy Spirit HELPS US He DOES NOT FORCE us into behavior.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, not at all. "Believe" means to affirm something true. That's all. It doesn't connote obedience.

Unbelief occurs when someone acts as if something is true when they know that it's false, or they act as if something is false when they know it is true.

Verses taken out of context aren't clear; they are ambiguous, which is why two honest readers of the same sentence can arrive at different interpretations.


Agreed. But John expects his readers to interpret his words from within the larger context of the Gospel.

Remember that John wrote in Greek, not English. We need to be careful readers to understand what he meant.

John 3:36 is not conditional; it's propositional. Contrary to your interpretation, Jesus doesn't mean to say, "If you want eternal life, then believe in the Son." Instead, Jesus has already established that unless a person is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, which is essential for believing and obeying the Son. In that context, then, Jesus means to say, "Those whom the Father has sanctified with new birth by the Spirit will believe, and these individuals will be given eternal life.

One can not properly understand John 3:36 apart from the rest of the chapter.

Nice ideas C....
But you say that two readers will come away with two different ideas.

So are you saying that the NT does NOT CONTAIN THE TRUTH?

This is an interesting concept.

OR

Do you believe that, perhaps, one of the readers is incorrect in their interpretation of scripture?

 

[GodsGrace]

My statement addresses the reason behind someone's obedience and whether a person is actively pursuing and applying wisdom or simply following rules without understanding. There are several scripture passages that discuss this. I can share one passage that exemplifies this idea.

Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Here, Jesus criticizes the Pharisees because they tithed mint, dill, and cummin while neglecting the weightier things of the law. Tithing is a measurable behavior. All one needs to do is ask whether or not one has paid ten percent of their income, which is a simple accounting function.

Keeping the rules doesn't challenge a person's character or his attitude toward God and other people. Justice, mercy, and faithfulness, is hard to measure and keep an acounting. And righteousness demands that a person's justice and mercy come from the inner man. Mercy must be genuine.

Here is another passage that illustrates the point again in a different way.

Luke 18:11-13 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’

How did the Pharisee compare himself to the tax collector? He denied being a swindler, but he based his righteousness on his obedience to religious rules. Jesus criticized the Pharisees because they equated religious devotion with moral righteousness. The Pharisee thought that God was pleased with his obedience to religious rules and believed that he was superior to others based on keeping the rules. But he did not go home justified.



It's a matter of courage. It's scary to live according to wisdom; But if I measure myself against a set of rules, I can always know how I stand regarding God's approval, or so I think. I can be lured into a false sense of security through rule-keeping. taking comfort and security from measured success.

Did I tithe my mint? If Yes, I am good. If no, then I need to improve. But going through the motions isn't righteousness.

Did you just state above that you might be lured into a false sense of security by following the rules of God?

 

[GracePeace]

No, not at all. "Believe" means to affirm something true. That's all. It doesn't connote obedience.

1 John 3:23,24 says the Command of God is to believe in the Name of God's Son.
When a command is given, what corresponds to it is obedience or disobedience.
Accordingly, Galatians 5:7 describes faith as "obeying the truth".
Accordingly, Ro 1:5 says "obedience of faith".
Ro 3:27 says "the Law of Faith", and believing is "righteousness" (Ro 4:5).
How is it "righteousness" if it isn't obedience?
How is it "obedience" if it isn't "commanded"?
But of course it is "commanded" (1 Jn 3:23,24).

Nothing you say is consistent with Scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

Allow me to cover all the bases with the word obey. Only believers have obeyed Christ by choosing to believe in Him (John 3:36) believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; Galatians 1:11-12) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up in a vain effort to receive salvation based on works. (Matthew 7:22-23) So, in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Unbelievers do not NEED to obey.
Must we continue round and round.

DO BELIEVERS NEED TO OBEY?

One word answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't want to go down this rabbit trail

Fine.
But you're the one who brought it up.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't want to go down this rabbit trail

I only said I want to follow Scripture, not just mindlessly follow people just because they have varying measures of grace due to what they believe (without what they believe having complete coherence)--you raised the issue of the distinctions about Arminianism, etc.