No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?
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Their "ideas" were held by no one in the early church--that's why they can't prove their beliefs from Scripture, as evinced in this thread.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Generally when the words works is mentioned it means obeying the Mosaic Law and the Mosaic law will not save you and in fact can curse a Christian.
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace" Galatians 5:4
GP
I feel the the Early Church Fathers is a very important group of persons since they were taught by the Apostles.
Here are some of their ideas on obeying God:
Ignatius of Antioch (? - 102? A.D.) (taught by Peter and John)
Letter to Polycarp, 6
Toil and train together, run and suffer together, rest and rise at the same time, as God�s stewards, assistants and servants.
Didache 12:3-5 (also known as THE TEACHINGS OF THE APOSTLES,,,circa 90AD)
But, if he wishes to settle among you and is a craftsman, let him work and eat. But if he has no trade, provide according to your conscience, so that no Christian shall live among you idle. But if he does not agree to do this, he is trading on the name of Christ; beware of such men.
Clement of Alexandria circa 125AD Student school of Justin Martyr
(The Pure soul -- or truly rich man) is ever laboring at some good work and divine work; even though he be necessarily sometime or other deprived of them (possessions) is able with cheerful mind to bear their removal equally with their abundance.
Shepherd of Hemas circa 125AD
Do good, and from the fruit of your labors, God�s gift, give to all those in need, without distinction, not debating to whom you will and to whom you will not give. Since it is God�s will that we give to all from His bounties, give to all.
Clement of Rome 96AD Taught by Paul and Peter
We should clothe ourselves with concord, being humble, self-controlled, far removed from all gossiping and slandering, and justified by our deeds, not by words (ch. 30:3).
It was obedience which led [Abraham] to quit his country, his kindred, and his father’s house, so that, by leaving a paltry country, a mean kindred, and an insignificant house, he might inherit God’s promises (ch. 10:2).
We must, then, be eager to do good; for everything comes from Him. For he warns us: ‘See, the Lord is coming. He is bringing his reward with him, to pay each one according to his work’ (ch. 34:2,3).
There is so much more.
And here we are, 2,000 years later, sugar coating the fact that it is NECESSARY to obey God.
Those that the Apostles taught did not mention anything about doing works because of salvation...
they just plainly stated that they must be done.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
This is partially true. But when people say works we do nto always think of the law.
Again, You work for a reward. or you work out of appreciation.
Salvation is a gift not a reward..
What IS the reward EG?
Could it be heaven?
Salvation is a gift.
It's up to the individual to safeguard it.
Hebrews 10:35-36
35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
Cross references for above:
Mark 3:35
For whoever does the will of God is My brother and sister and mother."
Luke 21:19
By your patient endurance you will gain your souls.
Romans 2:7
To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with endurance the race set out for us.
Yes. It's always US doing the good works which are required by God.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
No
heaven is a gift. We all deserve hell.. we could never deserve heaven
if you have to safeguard it, it is not a gift is it. I call that a down payment. Ie, I give it to you for free, But you have to work to keep it.
Once again you talking about what we do after we are saved. Not what we do to be saved.
Salvation is a gift. It can never be earned, We need not be fools thinking we perfect what God started in us in the flesh (works)
OK EG.
You know I'm not going to go on forever.
I'd just like to make my comments when I read something off.
I've received gifts--- I safeguard them.
But OK, enough of this.
I believe you're a good person and Christian but I really dislike how you explain salvation and good works.
There are some reading along that don't even understand what's being said.
I wish we were more united in our language - besides our theology.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
There is a way to be united
We are saved BY GRACE through faith, not of works
Those who are saved WILL work (not might) because they were created anew for good works
The problem is people who push works usually push a legalistic mindset. For those of us in christ. We do nto have t push woris they flow out of our new birth.
Some who are saved don't feel like they have to do anything....
INCLUDING experiencing a transformation in their lives.
Maybe you haven't come across anyone like this.
They think that because they walked down an isle and "accepted" Jesus all if just fine now.
THIS IS NOT TRUE.
Now, you may say that they're not truly saved and you'd be right...
BUT
They think they are because of reading stuff like what you say.
They feel that Jesus did it all and they have nothing left to do.
They think that IF the Holy Spirit works a miracle and calls them to do something, then maybe they'll do it.
This is the bottom line and I'll repeat again:
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
WORKS WITHOUT FAITH ARE DEAD.
One REQUIRES/NECESSITATES the other.
If you can reply NO to the following question, which you've never answered BTW, then there's something lacking in understanding the NT.
IS IT NECESSARY TO OBEY GOD?
Did you see my post 545 to another member?
Do you realize how many Christian theologians you put aside with your language?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Well true believers do not believe this. They know god will complete the work in them
But hey if you think you can add your works to grace feel free. Good luck with that
See again you show lack of trust or faith in God. God will change their lives. Stop painting to self and point up. He will (not might) change you
Nope. I do not think this at all. I have faith in God and I have seen his work. Maybe you have not that’s why you doubt?
I never said it was. Stop assuming you know what I think
Do what?
Well. They will not find truth with your holier than though phariseeism. You can only show them damnation God came to save them. I will not stop him like you are
To be saved? They would be correct. If they could do something the cross was meaningless. But that’s for showing your true colors. I did get you right. You almost had me convinced you believed in grace
Have no idea what this even means
You can scream all you want
We are saved by grace through faith not of works lest anyone should boast
You want to boast. Have fun
Those who are truly saved WILL work and praise God like I do
That’s a bogus question. The only way you can truly obey god in a means to justify yourself you would have to start from birth and never sin until you do
You failed as did I
As for obeying the gospel. This is a must will you obey the gospel? I am worried you have not
lol. The Catholic Church the oldest organized church on earth have not got it right
You want to follow Men feel free. They will take you down with them and could care less
Asking if it's necessary to OBEY GOD is a bogus question?
That about does it.
I'm sure God is very happy that you're properly conveying what He wants from Chrisitians.
James 3:1
False teachers were present even in the 1st generation, so I'm not saying "Whatever the Early Church says is immutable", but isn't it interesting that none of them interpreted Scripture in such a way as to arrive at Monergism or general eternal Security?
Just meant it as a quick comment, not to open a can of worms.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Jesus' statements concerning abiding should be understood as descriptive, not prescriptive. To illustrate, consider the statement, 'If an apple falls from the tree, it will land on the ground.' This is not a command for the apple to fall, but a description of what will happen if certain conditions are met. Similarly, Jesus' statements about abiding describe the natural outcome of certain conditions being met.
According to Jesus, the abiding of a person is made possible by God the Father. (John 15:8) He tells the Eleven, 'My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.' This reassures us that our abiding is not solely dependent on our own strength of character, but on the grace and enabling power of God the Father.
There remains a direct correlation between the indwelling of the Spirit and being raised from the dead. For this reason, since those who abide in Christ will receive eternal life, then those who remain are those who have been granted the Spirit of God.
Nope, the command to "remain" is repeated to the spiritually immature disciples, branches, the "children".
Commands aren't given for automatic occurrences. They're given where there're CONTINGENCIES.
Yeah, "if you keep God's commands".
Nope, that verse says God is glorified when you bear much fruit by your remaining in the Vine as God prunes you. Pruning removes unnecessary growth that sucks up resources that could otherwise be used to bear fruit. Pruning improves yield. His skillful knowledge shows the masterfulness of the vinedresser. It glorifies the vinedresser.
That's a different issue than the reality that there is a CONTINGENCY : IF you abide in Me and My Word you--same thing 1 Jn 3:23,24 say.
No, rather, the life is in the Son, and those who remain in the Son by keeping God's Command remain eligible to receive the Spirit that is in the Son (the substance in the Vine), like Paul says, "Whoever disregards this [prohibition against immorality] disregards not man but God Who gives you His Spirit", just as David, after committing sexual immorality with Bathsheba, cried, "Don't take Your Spirit away from me!" It's so clear.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I still need to understand how this follows from the previous discussion. You lost me with your comment about Apollos, which isn't related to the discussion at all. You also lost me with your typology comment, which isn't a valid means of interpretation.
My point was centered on Paul's assertion in Romans 8, where he says that those in Christ are freed from the Law of Sin and Death, indicating that sin is no longer an issue.
Romans 7 presents two distinct arguments. In the first argument, Paul compares the Law concerning marriage to a Jewish person's change of strategy regarding their attainment of God's favor. He argues that since it can be shown that the Law is not a viable means to gain God's favor, this is like the death of the husband. Just as the wife of a deceased husband is free to seek another husband, the Jewish person living under the Law is free to seek another way outside the Law to be justified and to attain God's favor, namely, faith in Jesus Christ.
The second argument proves that a Jewish person can never find justification under the law since no one, whether Jew or Gentile, can obey the 10th commandment. He obeys that commandment in his mind, he agrees with the commandment and he wants to obey the commandment, but upon introspection, he finds that he breaks the commandment often. He finds sin in him, at the core of his being and he struggles against his own members.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I don't understand your explanation and I'm not sure what I said that would lead you to say this.
I thought I said that not all believers are "in Christ" the way Paul means it in Romans 8. How might I have said it differently to be more understandable?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Indeed, two individuals, both reading the same text, might understand it differently because each person brings baggage to the text. We all carry around a set of presuppositions that inform our understanding of a text. With discipline and hard work, we can learn to overcome that limitation and learn how to allow the text to teach us instead.
No. The New Testament is true in everything that it says. But when two people disagree about what it says, this indicates that one or both of them have not yet understood it the way it was intended.
Yes. Thanks for the help.
1. Ro 7 shows a man was "without strength" getting pummeled by sin, bc it overpowered him qnd made him act sins contrary to the law of his mind
That he called "slavery"--there is no choice.
Now that we are rescued from slavery, there is a choice--we know this based on 1 Co 10. The Jews were saved and still they fell under God's wrath and didn't inherit the promise. Paul says this corresponds to how Christianity works.
No, he says he serves God's Law with his inner man, but Sin's law with his flesh, thus those who walk according to the spirit will not fulfill Sin's law--but if you walk according to the flesh you will die because sin leads to death.
They were obligated as long as they lived to serve by Torah, but, since they died with Christ, they are freed from their obligation. This is an ancient Jewish teaching also found in the Talmud
Niddah 61b
Our Rabbis taught: A garment in which kil'ayim4 was lost5 may not be sold to an idolater,6 nor may one make of it a packsaddle for an ass, but it may be made into7 a shroud for a corpse. R. Joseph observed: This8 implies that the commandments will be abolished in the Hereafter.9 Said Abaye (or as some say R. Dimi) to him: But did not R. Manni10 in the name of R. Jannai state, 'This8 was learnt only in regard to the time of the lamentations11 but for burial12 this is forbidden'?13 — The other replied: But was it not stated in connection with it, 'R. Johanan ruled: Even for burial'? And thereby R. Johanan followed his previously expressed view, for R. Johanan stated: 'What is the purport of the Scriptural text, Free14 among the dead?15 As soon as a man dies he is free from the commandments'.
Thus, the "husband" who "dies" is the outward person, and the "wife" who is "free to marry another" is the inner person who is placed into Christ, another body, Who "became a life-giving spirit" (1 Co 15). "He who is one with the Lord is one spirit with the Lord."
Yeah, he calls it "slavery"--and after we are rescued from "slavery" by the blood of "our Passover Lamb", we are not "forced" to sin, but we have a choice.
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