No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

[GracePeace]

What? Do you think Apollos is the subject of Acts 19? Did I say anything about Apollos or base an argument on him at all? Didn't you understand that I was attempting to give you the Biblical justification for the meaning of "in" or "into" a teacher? And why is it difficult to understand that the Apostle Paul has coined his own term, "in Christ" to speak about a particular type of believer who not only believes, but has been given the Spirit of God?

Yeah, someone who remains "in Christ" continues to be eligible to receive the Spirit that is only "in His Son" (1 Jn 5:11)--but Scripture, again, has the condition that people "remain" in Him. If the Bible taught that it happened without exception, automatically, the teaching and command to "remain" would not have been issued. There would be no issue to address if it happened automatically.

 

[GracePeace]

The ECF's are not to be trusted with doctrine. I wouldn't believe anything they said.

"Interesting" : no one in the early church held to what you hold to.
No one "understood" Scripture as you do.
Your "understanding" came with Luther and Calvin.
The early church read the Scriptures similar to how I do.
So, the early church, taught by the apostles, got it wrong, but Luther and Calvin and you got it right?

As stated, I'm not saying I defer to the early church in all things (error crept in even in the days of the Apostles, so, as time progressed, more error could creep in--errors like "faith alone", that came in the 1500s), but if I held to a view like "eternal security", or like "Monergism", I would feel pretty uncomfortable discussing the views of the early church like you.

 

[Grailhunter]

Are you saying you agree or disagree--or, specifically, why you agree or disagree.

Let go with an example…

If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26

As written this stands against so many scriptures and themes in the Bible. If you make this part of your religious beliefs it will be one weird religion.

 

[GracePeace]

Let go with an example…

If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26

As written this stands against so many scriptures and themes in the Bible. If you make this part of your religious beliefs it will be one weird religion.

I'm not going to pursue this discussion with you any further unless you interact with the OP--the same way you used a random example, you can take the purport of the OP, and explain how you think it results in "one weird religion".


What is "normal" and what is "weird"--what do you claim the Bible teaches, and how is it that what is stated in the OP is contrary to what you claim the Bible teaches?

 

[Grailhunter]

I'm not going to pursue this discussion with you any further unless you interact with the OP--the same way you used a random example, you can take the purport of the OP, and explain how you think it results in "one weird religion".


What is "normal" and what is "weird"--what do you claim the Bible teaches, and how is it that what is stated in the OP is contrary to what you claim the Bible teaches?

Ok let me put it this way….

No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

No Condemnation For Those In Christ???? This does not make any sense.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2nd Corinthians 5:10

So those in Christ will be judged to Heaven or Hell according to their deeds.

 

[GracePeace]

Ok let me put it this way….

No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

No Condemnation For Those In Christ???? This does not make any sense.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2nd Corinthians 5:10

So those in Christ will be judged to Heaven or Hell according to their deeds.

1. "No condemnation for those in Christ" is not up for debate, because it is a word-for-word quote from Romans 8:1.

2. It seems you did not read the OP before responding to it, because, if you had, you would've (or should've) understood that it is promulgating a view that (at least, to me, it seems) agrees with what you are saying.

Proverbs 18
13If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Asking if it's necessary to OBEY GOD is a bogus question?

If you knew the power of God. And his ability to change people. You would never ask such a question

You only ask such a question because you think you have to change yourself. Its Not god who changes you

That about does it.

yes it does it proves what I have thought all along You are trying to save yourself. You think you are righteous of yourself and deny and reject the power Of God to not only save you, But change you

I'm sure God is very happy that you're properly conveying what He wants from Chrisitians.

James 3:1

He is not very happy you are twisting his gospel of grace through faith into a false gospel of faith plus works

its making paul spent over half the NT destroying this thinking, yet people still fall for it today.

Good luck with that, And good luck boasting in self. Your pride preceded you and is here for all to see

as for me, i will seek to point to christ in all things, and not assume I have done anything worthy of earning my salvation

 

[Grailhunter]

1. "No condemnation for those in Christ" is not up for debate, because it is a word-for-word quote from Romans 8:1.

LOL....That is what I am saying you do not want to take a scripture that is contradictory to several other scriptures, even the theme as a whole and make it a religion....It is the wrong way to understand the scriptures.

So let me put it this way…..
Mt:12:36: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1st John 3:8

Mt:5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mt:7:2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22-2 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Hebrews 6:4-8
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10: 26-31
26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2nd Peter 2:4-22
4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment 5: And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7: And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds 9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they nderstand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13: And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2Cor:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2Pt:2:9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Pt:3:7: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jude:1:15: To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rom:1:32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Rom:5:12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom:6:12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom:6:13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom:6:16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom:7:23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

1Cor:15:56: The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Gal:3:22: But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Rom:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

[Grailhunter]

It seems you did not read the OP before responding to it, because, if you had, you would've (or should've) understood that it is promulgating a view that (at least, to me, it seems) agrees with what you are saying.

LOL I understand the OP. The scripture Romans 8:1 says what it says.

You are trying to reconcile the scripture with other scriptures and it is not going to work.

 

[GracePeace]

LOL I understand the OP. The scripture Romans 8:1 says what it says.

You are trying to reconcile the scripture with other scriptures and it is not going to work.

It has worked.
Did you care to address how it has worked?

 

[Grailhunter]

It has worked.
Did you care to address how it has worked?

No it has not worked.
Do you understand what Romans 8:1 means

 

[GracePeace]

No it has not worked.
Do you understand what Romans 8:1 means

How has it not worked?

 

[GracePeace]

You are trying to reconcile the scripture with other scriptures and it is not going to work.

Your basic argument against the OP is that "Scripture is not consistent with itself--it contradicts itself--so there's no point in trying to make it make sense". On how many levels is it incoherent? Are any of its sentences coherent?

If that's your argument, then enjoy your conclusions--I have a different opinion (that Scripture is consistent with itself), and I'm pursuing a reading that is coherent, consistent with itself.

 

[Grailhunter]

Your basic argument against the OP is that "Scripture is not consistent with itself--it contradicts itself--so there's no point in trying to make it make sense"

I did not say the scripture is not consistent with itself.
It is not consistent with all those scriptures I gave you.
It is a stand alone scripture that contradicts the theme of the New Testament.
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1
Christians can be condemned by Christ.
They can be judge by Christ.
Christians can go to Hell for sinning.

It is the kind of scripture that those that believe in OSAS would be embracing.

 

[GracePeace]

It is a stand alone scripture that contradicts the theme of the New Testament.

So, you believe in "stand alone" Scripture verses--based on that, it seems there is no argument reconciling seemingly irreconcilable verses that will interest or persuade you.

Sounds good. Enjoy your conclusions.

 

[Grailhunter]

So, you believe in "stand alone"

Stand alone scripure like
If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26

 

[GracePeace]

Stand alone scripure like
If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26

Sounds like you're interested in the idea that there are standalone verses. I'm not. I encourage you to post your own thread about it, not commandeer someone else's thread.

 

[GracePeace]

He is not very happy you are twisting his gospel of grace through faith into a false gospel of faith plus works

"Works" pertains to "a righteousness of my own", but "God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith", so when someone walks in faith, that is not the "filthy rags" of "a righteousness of my own", but "fine linen bright and clean" (Rv 19:7,8) of God's righteousness--accordingly, the one who does not walk by faith is "condemned" (Ro 14:23), but "doers of the Law" (we "fulfill the Law" when we walk by the spirit (Ro 8:4)), by the New Covenant promise of the Spirit writing the Law on their hearts, are "justified" (Ro 2:6-16). Paul teaches the same as James on the matter (James 2).

If that doesn't "jive" with your pet "system", too bad--it's Scripture, and basically everyone in the Church believed this way until your boy, Johnny-Come-Lately, birthed the ignorance of "faith alone" in the 1500s.

 

[Grailhunter]

Sounds like you're interested in the idea that there are standalone verses. I'm not. I encourage you to post your own thread about it, not commandeer someone else's thread.

That is ok.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"Works" pertains to "a righteousness of my own", but "God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith", so when someone walks in faith, that is not the "filthy rags" of "a righteousness of my own", but "fine linen bright and clean" (Rv 19:7,8) of God's righteousness--accordingly, the one who does not walk by faith is "condemned" (Ro 14:23), but "doers of the Law" (we "fulfill the Law" when we walk by the spirit (Ro 8:4)), by the New Covenant promise of the Spirit writing the Law on their hearts, are "justified" (Ro 2:6-16). Paul teaches the same as James on the matter (James 2).

If that doesn't "jive" with your pet "system", too bad--it's Scripture, and basically everyone in the Church believed this way until your boy, Johnny-Come-Lately, birthed the ignorance of "faith alone" in the 1500s.

Here is where your gospel of self righteousness comes crashing down.
I will just let the word of God correct your faulty thinking

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Ephesians 2:9
not of works, lest anyone should boast

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit