No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

[CadyandZoe]

1. Paul couldn't figure out whar Apollos could've been baptized into, because for him it was synonymous, at that point, with being baptized in the Name of Jesus for the remission of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit, so, it turned out that that message had not yet reached Apollos, but he had only been baptized confessing his sins with John (this, to me, actually, explains why Jesus was able to say "Behold, an Israelite, indeed, in whom is no guile"--he had partaken in John's baptism, confessing his sins).

2. Nevertheless, since your point is really about "the elect of God who were without condemnation, being sanctified by/with the Spirit of God and having the spirit of Christ" : you already admitted that some do not remain, but, sinning sins unto death, are separated from the fellowship with God (eternal life is to know God (Jn 17:3)).

But don't bury the lead as they say. Our discussion centers on Romans 8 and what Paul meant to say there about those in Christ who have the Spirit of God and the spirit of Christ. They are not condemned and they never will be condemned.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's works-salvationists who practice eisegesis very well.

Yes, Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and not in Christ alone. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ - Romans 3:24-28; Philippians 3:9) was still stained with sin. Hence, workers of iniquity/you who practice lawlessness.

But it doesn't say this MD.
Matthew 7:22 does not speak of saved or unsaved,,,
it does not even speak of works...and it does Not speak of IN CHRIST ALONE.

It only states that they practiced lawlessness.
Jesus did not KNOW THEM because they practiced lawlessness.

It is only those who do the will of the Father that will enter. verse 21
What is the will of the Father?
That we believe.
What does believe mean?
That Jesus is to be our teacher, our example, our mentor.
We are to FOLLOW HIM.

It states that trees that do not produce good fruit will be CUT DOWN and thrown into the fire. verse 19

Why do you find it necessary to eisegete the verses and put your own words into them?
Why is it more comforting to you?
Why can't you just accept what the NT plainly states?

Since Jesus never knew them it's obvious, they were never saved. In John 17:3, we read - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people did not have this relationship with Jesus. Hence, they were not genuine believers.

Who didn't have a relationship with Jesus?
You mean the persons in Matthew 7?
Again, I don't read Jesus saying anything about a relationship.
In John 17:3 He's speaking to His disciples (Apostles) and in verse 8 Jesus states that He had given to them the words that the Father gave to Him.

What words?
Perhaps the words, meaning teachings, that Jesus spent over 3 years speaking to His Apostles so they could then go out and teach others?
What would there be to teach anyway if no works are necessary.

I suppose we're discussing whether or not good works are NECESSARY.

Let me make very plain that I read in the NT that they are.
So, looks like we're back where we began.

Do you believe that God gives us recommendations or do you believe God gives us commands?

Jesus said
IF you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love.....
Just as HE kept God's commandments and abided in His love.
John 15:10

Jesus expects us to KEEP HIS WORD.
This sounds to me like it's necessary.

Why does this frighten you?

Do you not desire to keep God's word?
John 15:14 Jesus said:
"You are My friends IF you do what I COMMAND you."

In Matthew 7:17, Jesus said - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree is 'descriptive' of a believer and a bad tree is 'descriptive' of an unbeliever.

Again, Jesus says no such phrase as a believer or a non-believer.
All Jesus states is that a bad tree will produce bad fruit and a good tree will produce good fruit.
Anything else you add are YOUR words and are not scripture.

What is God's will for us unto salvation that these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 failed to do? In John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. This is the opposite of depart from Me you who practice lawlessness.

Sure.
But we've been through this many times MD,
What does BELEIVE mean in the original Greek?

What does life look like when we believe in Jesus Christ?​

What does our life look like once we believe in Jesus Christ? Does it / should it look any different from before? How can we live out our belief in Christ? This list is not complete, but here are five ways our belief in Jesus Christ will be evident in our life.

Live a life of obedience to Jesus.
This means following his commands and seeking to live in a way that honors him. By living a life of obedience to Jesus, we can experience the blessings that come from living in accordance with his will.

source: What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus?.

Apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ washing away our sins (Acts 10:43; Acts 26:18; Romans 3:24-28) one remains in their sins and in the eyes of God, such a person is considered one who practices lawlessness instead of righteousness. Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin/lawlessness. (1 John 3:9-10) Now do the math.

Agreed.
They BELIEVE in Jesus.
They follow His commands.

Now in regard to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church) I read Matthew 7:22 and was astonished! I remember thinking to myself, these many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of the natural man who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works.

But you and EG are saying the person is already saved.....
The persons in Matthew may have done wonderful works in Jesus' name....
but they also DID NOT BELIEVE IN HIM.
They practiced lawlessness.
They wanted Him to be their savior....but not their Lord.

And you were converted more than several years ago.
I've known you for at least 7 or 8.

And you're not supposed to worry about anyone else but yourself....
we cannot all do everything, God gives to each of us a measure of faith to do what HE needs us to do.
(the workers in the vineyard).

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do you mean licentiousness?

wanton disregard or transgression of laws, rules, or moral norms:

How do you define legalism?

The world is divided into "rule keepers" and "principle keepers." Jesus was critical of "rule keepers."

 

[GracePeace]

I believe that once a person is genuinely being saved they are always in fellowship with God. Their sins are forgiven, and they remain in a permanent relationship with Him.

No, you said there is a difference between sins, and some who are in Christ sin sins unto death (eternal life is knowing God, so sinning unto death would be to interrupt fellowship).

You believe that sin can disrupt fellowship with God.

It seems you admitted the same.

When a believer sins, they need to confess and seek forgiveness to restore that fellowship.

Yes, that is obeying the first part of the Command to believe in the Name of God's Son!

If you insist that "abiding in Christ" involves a dynamic relationship where sin can disrupt fellowship, then we don't share common ground on which to progress in our discussion. Everything I have said so far is predicated on the idea that "abiding in Christ" is a steady state.

Well, there're problems with that, as mentioned :
1. The Galatians were "severed from Christ", and were "deserting [God]", so he was "again in labor pains until Christ be formed in you", since "Christ is in you--unless you fail the test [of faith]".
2. Some names are in the Lamb's Book of Life, but are "blotted out"--God can forget sin, but He can also forget righteousness (Ezekiel 18:24; Mt 18:32-34).

I don't treat such things as "extra parts", I take them seriously--and your view, while it does acknowledge some truth, and, so, can be helpful, cannot account for these things.

Even those who sin, John says, are in fellowship with God because they confess their sins and place their trust in their advocate.

When someone sins, it is either the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, or boasting, and these are not from the father, but are from the world. They are looking away from God, to the world, at that point, not in "unbroken" fellowship with God.

Well, that wasn't very clear to me because I don't know anyone who believes that sin can disrupt fellowship, who hasn't given up on Christianity altogether, or hasn't committed suicide. Eventually, they all figure out that "Christianity" doesn't work. It is virtually impossible to maintain a relationship with God if it requires ongoing repentance and confession. How can one know for certain if one has confessed all their sins? What if they forgot one or two? Your theology doesn't work in real life.

1. I thought you just said that "ongoing repentance and confession" was how Christianity worked?
2. You don't know anyone who believes "ongoing repentance and confession" "who hasn't given up on Christianity altogether, or hasn't committed suicide"? Do you know how many Catholics and Orthodox Christians there have been throughout history?
3. Your contention is that a person cannot know their sin, whereas the Word of God says you can confess your sin (inferring that one's sins can be known). Who should I believe?

I think you may not understand Paul's terminology again.

In the following passage, Paul uses the same Greek word three times, which the translator has translated as "Law."

Romans 8:2-3 For the law [ νόμος ] of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law [ νόμου ] of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law [ νόμου ] could not do, weak as it was through the flesh . . .

In verse 3, Paul refers to the Jewish Law, which is the Torah. The English meaning of the word Torah is "instruction." Thus, our understanding of verse 2 comes from Paul's reference to "the instruction" in verse 3. In these two verses, Paul identifies a new and different source of teaching and education: the Spirit of God. In Paul's words, "The Torah of the Spirit of God has set us free from the Torah of sin and death."

In other words, those in Christ are being instructed by the Holy Spirit now, which has freed us from being taught by a system of sin and death. Those in Christ have found pardon and forgiveness, and if a follower of Christ should "misstep" the follower has an advocate with the Father.

The point is, sinning does not indicate that a person in Christ has left Christ.

It's an understandable misconception on your part :

Romans 7
21I find then the law that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully agree with the law of God [Torah] in the inner person, 23but I see a different law [not Torah] in the members of my body waging war against the law of my mind [Torah], and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, the law which is in my body’s parts.

God, a ruler, issues decrees, Law.
Sin, a ruler, issues decrees, Law.

Okay, but my point was concerning Peter's betrayal of Jesus. I suppose one could argue that Peter wasn't in fellowship with Christ when he betrayed him. But Christ knew what would happen and prayed to the Father that Peter wouldn't fall. And Peter didn't fall.

I do not equate failure to abide in Christ with "irretrievably falling away".

You are right. I forgot about that passage because I don't think Paul was speaking about a "law of faith" in the literal sense. In that context the "νόμου πίστεως" refers to the new covenant (law) which is based on belief in the Son of God.

What I'm saying is that "Law of Faith" clearly extends beyond mere faith in the Name of the Son of God into loving God and man (1 Jn 3:23,24), which Paul gives definition to when he says "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind", and when a Christian does not obey that law of faith they are condemned.

Please remember the following text:
"Our translations read, 'Abraham was accounted as righteous in light of his faith.' (or something like that.) In that context, the talk is not about being virtuous, honorable, or morally right. Instead, Abraham was accounted as justified, which refers to his having a right standing before God. Abraham was declared 'in the right' concerning his belief in what God promised."

You already admitted Paul used the words "law of faith"--thus we also have the phrase "obey the truth" (Ro 2:8; Gal 5:7) and "obedience of faith" (Ro 1:5).

 

[GracePeace]

But don't bury the lead as they say. Our discussion centers on Romans 8 and what Paul meant to say there about those in Christ who have the Spirit of God and the spirit of Christ. They are not condemned and they never will be condemned.

Why would it be "burying the lede" for me to point out that you already admitted that some who are in Christ sin sins unto death that separate them from Christ?

 

[GracePeace]

I had pointed out that not all remain, because John, addressing the "children", commanded them to "remain"--if it happens automatically, and nothing other than that has a possibility of occurring, then there would be no need for a command--and your response was to attempt to redefine "children" as "people who grew up Christians, children of the first disciples, but not necessarily themselves believers just because their parents were believers".

The problem with your response would be that John says their sins have been forgiven for His Name

1 John 2
12I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven through His name.

So, actually, it is as I purport : they are believers, but they are spiritually immature.
This is plainly the case--I'd never even heard anyone try to debate it until you did it.

 

[GracePeace]

Okay, but committing a sin does not necessarily indicate that one is no longer abiding in Christ. In 1 John 5, he draws a distinction between sins leading to death and sins not leading to death. Only those who commit a sin leading to death are no longer abiding in Christ.

Next, John frames the Christian walk in terms of walking in the light. And those who are walking in the light have fellowship with God.

1 John 1:7-10 If we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Fellowship with God and walking in the light requires that a man admit that he sins, never deny that he sins, confesses his sins and he trusts that Jesus will forgive his sins and cleanse him from all unrighteousness.

So then, according to John, those who are abiding in Christ will never say that they have no sins. And there are sins that don't lead unto death. Therefore, it is not true that a sin indicates a falling away from Christ.

1. I want to come back to this in a bit because it is a good objection, which may assist in arriving at a better understanding for me, but I have a couple things to do quickly.

So, there is a problem : according to John 15:5-10 and 1 Jn 3:23,24, we abide in Him by keeping His commands (i. believe in the Name of God's Son, and ii. love one another)--seemingly offering the only satisfactory explanation for how the one who sins "is condemned" (Ro 14:23), yet "no condemnation" for the one who is "in Christ" (Ro 8:1)--whereas those who do not remain shrink back in shame (Heb 10:38,39; 1 Jn 2:28), and, yet, it says,

1 John 1:7-10 If we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Note : In case it is helpful, Christ, the Light, is in God, and God is in Christ, the Light. I was confused about "as He Himself is in the Light", because it sounded like God was "dependent" on something (which I couldn't accept), but, with Christ's statement about His being in God and God being in Him, it "makes sense" and I can accept it.

1. If it is not the case that instances of sinning are not instances of not remaining in Christ--because remaining is by obeying--then what is the explanation for how there is no condemnation for those in Christ, yet the "true believer", who is to comport himself by the rule "each is to be fully convinced in his own mind", but who breaks that rule (by doing something he was wavering about, he did something that did not come from faith), is condemned?

2. There is a contingency : IF we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light. Not all walk in the Light. That's precisely the issue : "remain in Him". How? By obeying His commands to i. believe in His Name and ii. love one another.

3. The ones who do not remain in Him shrink back in shame (Heb 10:38,39; 1 Jn 2:28) : whereas "all have sinned", only some will be resurrected to "shame and contempt" over their sins (Dn 12:2). The ones who are not "remaining" refer, in part, to the ones who are not humbly trusting in the mercy of God on their sins (breaking the command to believe in the Name of God's Son), who proudly assert and go about to establish their own righteousness, ipso facto, rebelling against and suppressing the truth of God's righteousness (Ro 10:3) in forgiving our sins (1 Jn 1:9). To be forgiven, you have to admit unrighteousness--this requires humility, but loving the world, boasting (1 Jn 2:15-17), could be preventing a person from walking in the humble truth even when they know it (Jn 12:42,32). Ipso facto, they're not remaining by not believing in the Name of the Son of God, and that will result in "shame and contempt" not "life" (Dn 12:2; Heb 10:38,39), because they're not remaining by obeying.

4. Yes, people do sin, fail to love one another, fail to walk in faith, and, yes, that does result in their "condemnation" (Ro 14:23), not their "justification" (Ro 2:10, 13; James 2:24), but if they resort to obeying the first part of the command, believing in the Name of God's Son, confessing their sin and being forgiven, then, yes, they can preserve/restore the fellowship that was being endangered by the sin.

5. In the OT, there were sins people could commit unawares--as Paul said, "For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me."

Leviticus 4
13If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the LORD’s commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt...
22“When a leader sins, doing unintentionally any one of all the things that by the commandments of the LORD his God ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt...
27“If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the LORD’s commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt...

So, if the idea is that a person sins and is not apart from Christ, it may refer to the difference between someone who realizes his guilt during the commission of sin, who would be following idols (1 Jn 5:21), so that they don't remain (1 Jn 2:28), and the person who does not realize his guilt, who unintentionally sins, which would not count as following idols away from Jesus (afterward, at some point, God makes known to them that they sinned, and they have the opportunity to repent).

 

[GodsGrace]

Who does the fig tree represent in this parable?

Jesus said a good tree (which is 'descriptive' of believers) bears good fruit but a bad tree which is 'descriptive' of unbelievers) bears bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

I don't know what you're talking about MD.
The talk about trees bearing fruit means this:

Matthew 7:13-23
13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

verses 13-14: There is only one way to reach God. Many will not find it because of the following veses....
verse 15: Here Jesus is discussing those that will come and teach incorrect doctrine. He's speaking about false prophets and teachers....He's not even speaking about saved or unsaved disciples (us).
verse 16: We will know the false prophets by their fruits.
verse 17: Bad prophets/teachers will bear bad fruit. Just like some in those books you read. Read the bible instead - the inspired word of God.
verse 18 - 19: Every bad teacher that bears bad fruit will be cut down. The bad trees that they PRODUCE will be cut down. The ncorrect doctrine that is taught will be cut down.
verse 20: We will know bad teachers by their fruit. How? Because they confuse persons and create a cloud of confusion to JESUS' VERY PLAIN TEACHINGS.
verse 21: Not everyone who thinks they've served Jesus - the teachers and prophets - will enter into heaven, but those that do the will of God.
Verses 22-23: Not everyone who cries LORD, LORD, but those who DID NOT PRACTICE lawlessness.

John 15:1-16 is exactly the same. Sometimes reading books is not such a good idea when the ideas presented are not strictly biblical.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Agreed.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Agreed.
Who said otherwise??

Based on your eisegesis you don't pay close enough attention.

Ditto.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am thinking of what Jude said. They turn the grace of God to licentiousness.

A legalistic code. We achieve salvation by this code of works.

How about KEEPING salvation by a code of works.....
Could we define what a work is?

Here's my definition:

AFTER SALVATION since no amount of works will save anyone....

A work is anything we do to further the Kingdom of God here on earth.
It could be the most miniscule act to something of great importance.
As I said, God gives a measure of faith to everyone so that they can be empowered to
carry on the work that Jesus began here.

Jesus meant to create the Kingdom right here on earth.
We are the subjects of that Kingdom.
Subjects of any Kingdom have rules to follow.
You should follow them out of love for the King,
but some (even here on this thread) feel that they might follow due to some fear.

Whatever the reason...God will RESPECT the fact that you're following HIS RULES.

 

[GodsGrace]

The world is divided into "rule keepers" and "principle keepers." Jesus was critical of "rule keepers."

Show me some verses that state what you believe.
Otherwise, it's just your opinion.

BTW, Jesus wanted us to be united as He and the Father are united. John 17:21
Paul tells us that we are to be of one mind. Philippians 2:2-4

So why do you think there's this great divide that shouldn't even exist?

 

[GodsGrace]

Its believing that you can lose your salvation.

As once you have developed that type of broken faith, your faith is no longer trusting that Christ alone is going to get you into heaven, as otherwise, you would not believe that you can lose your salvation.

So, a person who believes that they can lose their salvation is putting more trust in themselves to lose it, then they will put in Christ to keep them saved.

This person has to ask themselves this question...

= I believe that Christ does not keep me saved.........which is why i believe that i can lose my salvation... so... ....if i dont trust in Christ to KEEP ME SAVED.. then .. who do i trust?

And right there, they will find is their FAITH issue....

Nice to see you again Behold.
The above sounds very nice.

Could you post some scripture please?

Maybe in the meantime you could explain the following:

Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


Please remember to post scripture that states that we cannot forfeit our salvation.
or I'll make it easy for you....words to that effect.

 

[Behold]

Please remember to post scripture that states that we cannot forfeit our salvation.

Hello,

A person who believes they can lose their salvation, has already found the verses that they believe Prove it.
And some deceived person, led them to that wrong faith, and spiritual issue.
See, its always a PERSON who ruins your faith. And they do it online, and from Pulpits, and from commentaries, and from family members, and from books, and from the TV.

So, Reader, if i showed you any verses, and you already have your little collection of verses that you believe, proves that you can undo What Jesus has Eternally accomplished for you on The Cross, then you are not going to be able to believe me, unless God causes it.
And because you are wanting to not believe it, and want to argue, then that means your heart is hardened so that it can't receive the seed of the word, and because of that, God can't water it with revelation.

Can this be changed?
Yes, but when the word of God revelation learning/discerning situation is laced with a pride filled religious spirit, then until that is dealt with by God, its very difficult for a very good Pauline Theologist like me.... to help you come to a revelation that is against a theological stronghold that is in your mind.

I can show you one.... verse, reader..... if you are that person who is absolutely certain that your Salvation is all your responsibility, and Jesus is trying to interfere with it with His Gift of Eternal Life.

Now, remember... if you believe that you lost your salvation, then you are going to Hell., you will believe.
Or if you believe that you could "lose it".... then its the same end if you do... according to what you are convinced that you believe.

Notice that Jesus said..>>>"ALL who believe in me, i give unto you, eternal life, and you shall never go to Hell (Perish)"..

And a person says...

"well behold".. what if i lost my faith?

A.) Faith is not the Savior. God is the Savior, and He saves you through your faith......>ONCE... as proven by being born again, ONCE.

Then God says... "that He is faithful to complete your salvation"...if you feel you've lost it... Philippians 1:6,....... and Jesus is the "finisher of your faith", if you feel that you have none anymore, after you were already born again.

See, the issue with..... "i just KNOW i can lose it"... is that these types, put more credit in themselves to be able to go to Hell, then they will ever Trust in Christ to keep them saved, and that is their broken faith.

"""""""NO Jesus.........listen to ME.............I told you that your Eternal life that i have been given, as Salvation, is not ETERNAL.....its just temporary... because i have the power that is above YOURS to make it so""""".. "Do you hear me JESUS.. .YOU BETTER !!!!""

So, what is to be done for this deceived person, /???? who, only tries to use a bible to lose their salvation, or they only try to use the bible to falsely prove that Salvation is not really Salvation, unless they are """working to be saved and working to stay saved"?

A.) You just hope that they dont come to your Church and try to lead people into that type of deception, as then you have to put Titus 3:10, into effect, and show them the parking lot.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How about KEEPING salvation by a code of works.....
Could we define what a work is?

Paul described it for us

1 we work for a wage or reward
2. It is something we can boast of (because we earned it)

Here's my definition:

AFTER SALVATION since no amount of works will save anyone....

A work is anything we do to further the Kingdom of God here on earth.
It could be the most miniscule act to something of great importance.
As I said, God gives a measure of faith to everyone so that they can be empowered to
carry on the work that Jesus began here.

Jesus meant to create the Kingdom right here on earth.
We are the subjects of that Kingdom.
Subjects of any Kingdom have rules to follow.
You should follow them out of love for the King,
but some (even here on this thread) feel that they might follow due to some fear.

Whatever the reason...God will RESPECT the fact that you're following HIS RULES.

It is still something you do to earn a reward god said he will reward us. Our reward may be just the fruit we bear

I once again I am not arguing sanctification so why would you disrespect me and go there again?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello,

A person who believes they can lose their salvation, has already found the verses that they believe Prove it.
And some deceived person, led them to that wrong faith, and spiritual issue.
See, its always a PERSON who ruins your faith. And they do it online, and from Pulpits, and from commentaries, and from family members, and from books, and from the TV.

So, Reader, if i showed you any verses, and you already have your little collection of verses that you believe, proves that you can undo What Jesus has Eternally accomplished on the Cross, then you are not going to be able to believe me, unless God causes it.
And because you are wanting to not believe it, and want to argue, then that means your heart is hardened so that it can't receive the seed of the word, and because of that, God can't water it with revelation.

Can this be changed?
Yes, but when the word of God revelation learning/discerning situation is laced with a pride filled religious spirit, then until that is dealt with by God, its very difficult for a very good Pauline Theologist like me.... to help you come to a revelation that is against a theological stronghold that is in your mind.

I can show you one.... verse, reader..... if you are that person who is absolutely certain that your Salvation is all your responsibility, and Jesus is trying to interfere with it with His Gift of Eternal Life.

Now, remember... if you believe that you lost your salvation, then you are going to Hell., you will believe.
Or if you believe that you could then its the same end if you do... according to what you are convinced that you believe.

Notice that Jesus said..>>>"All that believe in me, i give unto you, eternal life, and you shall never go to Hell (Perish)"..

And a person says...

"well behold".. what if i lost my faith?

A.) Faith is not the Savior. God is the Savior, and He saves you through your faith......>ONCE... as proven by being born again, ONCE.

Then God says... "that He is faithful to complete your salvation"...if you feel you've lost it... Philippians 1:6,....... and Jesus is the "finisher of your faith", if you feel that you have none anymore, after you were already born again.

See, the issue with..... "i just KNOW i can lose it"... is that these types, put more credit in themselves to be able to go to Hell, then they will ever Trust in Christ to keep them saved.

"no Jesus.........listen to ME.............I told you that your Eternal life that i have been given, as Salvation, is not ETERNAL.....its just temporary... because i have the power that is above YOURS to make it so"..

So, what is to be done for this deceived person, /???? who, only tries to use to bible to lose their salvation, or they only try to use the bible to prove that Salvation is not really Salvation, unless they are working to be saved and working to stay saved"?

A.) You just hope that they dont come to your Church and try to lead people into that type of deception, as then you have to put Titus 3:10, into effect, and show them the parking lot.

Too much talk.
No substance.
Your opinion is irrelevant.....
Since YOU are one of those persons you mention above that is trying to convince me of what You believe.

I'll take the word of God instead.

 

[GracePeace]

Too much talk.
No substance.
Your opinion is irrelevant.....
Since YOU are one of those persons you mention above that is trying to convince me of what You believe.

I'll take the word of God instead.

These people we're talking with (Behold, CadyandZoe, EternallyGrateful, MailManDan, etc) know God, and, (some moreso than others) many times, they mean well, but this discussion is, for me, all about being in exact keeping with everything that is written... and, yes, it is taking a long time, but, in the end, I think it will be worth it. I can't live with confusion.

 

[Behold]

Too much talk.
No substance.

No person who chooses to be deaf, can ever hear again.

And its not a good thing to tell Jesus's Verse, that its "no substance".
But, if you dont know that by now, you'll not know it anytime soon.

 

[GracePeace]

How about KEEPING salvation by a code of works.....
Could we define what a work is?

Here's my definition:

AFTER SALVATION since no amount of works will save anyone....

A work is anything we do to further the Kingdom of God here on earth.
It could be the most miniscule act to something of great importance.
As I said, God gives a measure of faith to everyone so that they can be empowered to
carry on the work that Jesus began here.

Jesus meant to create the Kingdom right here on earth.
We are the subjects of that Kingdom.
Subjects of any Kingdom have rules to follow.
You should follow them out of love for the King,
but some (even here on this thread) feel that they might follow due to some fear.

Whatever the reason...God will RESPECT the fact that you're following HIS RULES.

The characterization, the tenor, of keeping the Law of Faith (ie, "each man is to be fully convinced in his own mind") is "giving thanks" (Ro 14:6; Heb 13:15)--if it is not "giving thanks", then something is deadly wrong.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

These people we're talking with (Behold, CadyandZoe, EternallyGrateful, MailManDan, etc) know God, and, (some moreso than others) many times, they mean well, but this discussion is, for me, all about being in exact keeping with everything that is written... and, yes, it is taking a long time, but, in the end, I think it will be worth it. I can't live with confusion.

Then we would not listen to you.

We would repent and fall on our knees and stop trying to earn salvation but call out for Gods mercy

 

[GracePeace]

Then we would not listen to you.

We would repent and fall on our knees and stop trying to earn salvation but call out for Gods mercy

When people read the Bible, and they see that there must be good works after God's mercy (eg, "bear fruit in keeping with repentance"), and that this is not guaranteed, then questions come, because it seems contradictory, so there have had to be solutions.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When people read the Bible, and they see that there must be good works after God's mercy (eg, "bear fruit in keeping with repentance"), and that this is not guaranteed, then questions come, because it seems contradictory, so there have had to be solutions.

Here is the difference. You do it to keep yourself saved. You do Not trust god to change you you think you have to do it yourself

Well good luck with that. Other people will try to show their works to god also.