No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

[GracePeace]

I am honored to hear your testimony as I like to hear accounts of those living "in Christ" where the rubber meets the road. Thank-you.

I can only offer this word of encouragement. The Holy Spirit is patient and faithful and if you miss something of substance this time, there will be another time.

Have a great 4th of July up there in Flag.

Patient is an understatement.
I have been the worst person I have known.

Thanks!

 

[CadyandZoe]

By "a little more", do you mean that I would change my mind?

No, no, no. My apologies. I meant that I desire to see what you see better, which would involve a more comprehensive explanation. If you don't have time for that, I understand.

Galatians 3
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing?

The very ones who had received the Spirit by hearing the Gospel with faith were now seeking perfection by the flesh/the works of the Law--they had run well, but had been hindered from obeying the truth by a false Gospel of being under the Law of Moses.
They were deserting God by believing in a false Gospel of being under the Law, they had begun in the Spirit but were seeking to be perfected by the flesh, Paul was again in pains of labor trying to form Christ in them (Christ is in you unless you fail the test of faith) they were severed from Christ, they had run well, but were now being hindered from obeying the truth.

Okay we have a difference of opinion on what Paul meant by "receive the Spirit" A. to receive the Spirit is to be granted the indwelling of the Spirit and B. to be a witness to the testimony of the Spirit. If I understand you correctly, you think Paul means to say 'A', while I think Paul means to say 'B'.

Let me give reasons why I think Paul means to say 'B' rather than 'A.' The text provides clues indicating that Paul speaks about the witness of the Holy Spirit rather than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. For instance, he talks about how "Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified before your eyes." In this way, Paul is describing the witness of the Holy Spirit who was the one who presented something for the Galatians to witness with their eyes.

He also talks about "hearing by faith," indicating a public meeting where ideas and concepts are heard. In our language, we would call the "hearing" a lecture or a sermon.

He speaks about the miracles that the Spirit provided for their examination, which is another way for the Galatians to "receive" the testimony of the Spirit.

Irrelevant words.
Cornelius was "in Christ" when he heard the Gospel with faith--we know this because he was granted the Spirit.

There is a distinction to be made between those who have decided to become disciples of Christ and the elect of God. Cornelius and his family's water baptism placed them "into" Christ, but water baptism is not a sign of being among God's elect. According to Peter, the Holy Spirit fell upon them before Peter finished his sermon, indicating that God had "sanctified" Cornelius and his household. God tells Peter, "Consider holy (cleansed) what I have declared holy."

In short, water baptism officially indicated Cornelius's commitment to living as a disciple of Christ. At that moment, Cornelius was "in Christ" like John's disciples were "in John." But God chose Cornelius for salvation, officially indicating God's commitment to Cornelius that he would never fall.

Romans 8 speaks about those whom God has sanctified, like Cornelius and there Paul promises those whom God sanctifies with his spirit will be raised from the dead.

1 Jn 5:11 says the eternal life is only in His Son.
1 Jn 3:23,24 says you remain in Him by obeying, those in Him are supplied with the Spirit.
Hearing with faith is obeying the Law of Faith.
Hearing with doubt is disobeying the Law of Faith.
Those who obey abide, those who disobey do not abide.
Sin is the marker for those in Christ or out of Christ.

How can sin be the marker of those out of Christ if John says Christ is faithful to forgive our sins?

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.​

The marker of those who have fallen away is unrepentance. Those who have fallen away will not admit to themselves or others that they have sin. Those in Christ will readily admit mistakes, sins, and failures to themselves and to others. Those in Christ will confess their sins because Christ is faithful and righteous to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Sin is not the marker; impenitence is.

No, actually, you're importing that into the text--the text comments nowhere on the durability of the one "in Christ"--and the conditionals follow immediately after (IF you live according to the flesh you will die).

I didn't import the idea into the text. Refer to the following verses.

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Regarding salvation, the conditional stated above is the key, the most significant and vital thing to remember. If someone lives according to the flesh, they will die. BUT "you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." Here is where Paul explicitly informs the reader about the durability of the salvation of those God has sanctified.

Nope, they heard with faith, just as Cornelius.

Unlike the case of Cornelius, we have no mention from Paul that the Holy Spirit fell on any one living in Galatia. But even if the Holy Spirit did fall on someone living in Galatia, we can not say whether that person remained or not.

Why else would Paul be "astonished" they were so quickly deserting God?

Well, first of all, Paul is using rhetoric, making generalizations about the situation. Second, The comparison is between the teaching of the Judaizers and the teaching of the Holy Spirit -- i.e. God himself. He is astonished that the Galatians would abandon direct revelation of God in favor of man's opinion.

Anyway, I know you're not going to be moved from your position--and I won't be moved from mine.

Give it time. I must admit that I tire easily at my age.

 

[GracePeace]

No, no, no. My apologies. I meant that I desire to see what you see better, which would involve a more comprehensive explanation. If you don't have time for that, I understand.

Obviously, some remarks I make are shorter, and some are more "comprehensive".

Okay we have a difference of opinion on what Paul meant by "receive the Spirit" A. to receive the Spirit is to be granted the indwelling of the Spirit and B. to be a witness to the testimony of the Spirit. If I understand you correctly, you think Paul means to say 'A', while I think Paul means to say 'B'.

Let me give reasons why I think Paul means to say 'B' rather than 'A.' The text provides clues indicating that Paul speaks about the witness of the Holy Spirit rather than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. For instance, he talks about how "Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified before your eyes." In this way, Paul is describing the witness of the Holy Spirit who was the one who presented something for the Galatians to witness with their eyes.

They heard the Gospel and received the Spirit.
They began by the Spirit but were seeking perfection by flesh (law).
They had run well but were hindered after.
They had been with God but were deserting Him.
They had been with Christ but were severed.
They had been in grace, but had fallen.
They had Christ in them, but Paul was in labor pains to form Christ in them again.

What is your reply? "I don't know..."
Obviously, the only reason you "don't know" is your doctrine that it doesn't line up with.
It is a transparent matter to objective readers that they were in Christ, but did not remain.

He also talks about "hearing by faith," indicating a public meeting where ideas and concepts are heard. In our language, we would call the "hearing" a lecture or a sermon.

No, they heard and believed--contrasted against the "hear and do" of the Law.

He speaks about the miracles that the Spirit provided for their examination, which is another way for the Galatians to "receive" the testimony of the Spirit.

Where in the NT do we see examples of people who hear the Gospel and believe and receive the Spirit but it's not really counted as righteousness leading to receiving the Spirit, but, actually, merely "receiving the testimony of the Spirit"? You are speaking gobbledygook.

There is a distinction to be made between those who have decided to become disciples of Christ and the elect of God. Cornelius and his family's water baptism placed them "into" Christ, but water baptism is not a sign of being among God's elect. According to Peter, the Holy Spirit fell upon them before Peter finished his sermon, indicating that God had "sanctified" Cornelius and his household. God tells Peter, "Consider holy (cleansed) what I have declared holy."

In short, water baptism officially indicated Cornelius's commitment to living as a disciple of Christ. At that moment, Cornelius was "in Christ" like John's disciples were "in John." But God chose Cornelius for salvation, officially indicating God's commitment to Cornelius that he would never fall.

When Cornelius heard with faith, he was obeying God's command, thus, being in Christ, he was granted the Spirit (1 Jn 3:23,24). The same is said of the Galatians.

Romans 8 speaks about those whom God has sanctified, like Cornelius and there Paul promises those whom God sanctifies with his spirit will be raised from the dead.

Rather, Paul "promises" the Jewish Christians that there is a contingency that if they live after the flesh they will die.

How can sin be the marker of those out of Christ if John says Christ is faithful to forgive our sins?

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.​

The sin occurs outside of Christ, when someone does not remain in Christ, but leaves Christ to go after an idol.
Repentance and forgiveness regards returning to Christ.

The marker of those who have fallen away is unrepentance. Those who have fallen away will not admit to themselves or others that they have sin. Those in Christ will readily admit mistakes, sins, and failures to themselves and to others. Those in Christ will confess their sins because Christ is faithful and righteous to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Sin is not the marker; impenitence is.

Nope, there is no sin in Christ.

I didn't import the idea into the text. Refer to the following verses.

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Yep, "Test yourselves to see whether you are in the faith. Don't you know you are the temple of God and Christ is in you--unless you fail the test?" This is why Paul says "IF the Spirit of God dwells in you". It's contingent, again, going back, to obeying God's commands, whereby you abide in Christ, where you are eligible to receive the Spirit (1 Jn 3:23,24, 5:11).

Regarding salvation, the conditional stated above is the key, the most significant and vital thing to remember. If someone lives according to the flesh, they will die. BUT "you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." Here is where Paul explicitly informs the reader about the durability of the salvation of those God has sanctified.

No, the two go together : if they walk according to the flesh, that is walking contrary to God's grace, the Gospel.

Unlike the case of Cornelius, we have no mention from Paul that the Holy Spirit fell on any one living in Galatia. But even if the Holy Spirit did fall on someone living in Galatia, we can not say whether that person remained or not.

You may not, but I'm 100% certain I know what I'm reading, as explained.

Well, first of all, Paul is using rhetoric, making generalizations about the situation. Second, The comparison is between the teaching of the Judaizers and the teaching of the Holy Spirit -- i.e. God himself. He is astonished that the Galatians would abandon direct revelation of God in favor of man's opinion.

Give it time. I must admit that I tire easily at my age.

Yep, you are going to stick by your view, and I am going to stick by my view.
Not surprised.

 

[GracePeace]

There is a distinction to be made between those who have decided to become disciples of Christ and the elect of God. Cornelius and his family's water baptism placed them "into" Christ, but water baptism is not a sign of being among God's elect. According to Peter, the Holy Spirit fell upon them before Peter finished his sermon, indicating that God had "sanctified" Cornelius and his household. God tells Peter, "Consider holy (cleansed) what I have declared holy."

In short, water baptism officially indicated Cornelius's commitment to living as a disciple of Christ. At that moment, Cornelius was "in Christ" like John's disciples were "in John." But God chose Cornelius for salvation, officially indicating God's commitment to Cornelius that he would never fall.

If being "in Christ" were about baptism, in particular, then wouldn't "not remaining" have to involve getting "un-baptized"? "Remaining" "in Christ", rather, is about keeping God's command to i) believe and ii) walk in love/faith (1 Jn 3:23,24)--that's the only way to reconcile Ro 8:1 with Ro 14:23.

 

[Taken]

Practicing typing.....good.

For the benefit to others.....wish you wouldn't since you have nothing of substance to say.

Thankfully, God did NOT subject me, require me, to Believe IN you, Believe you, nor Grant your wishes!

So you know:
Believe IN you….rejected.
Believe you…......rejected.
Grant your wish…rejected.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Kabone]

I like how you reconcile the 2. I look at 8:1 about those who have faith, and 14:23 about those who have doubts about their faith.
Couple of my favorite scriptures is when Jesus told a guy ‘I have done nothing. It is your faith that has healed you.’ And when he said ‘your faith can move mountains’

 

[GracePeace]

I like how you reconcile the 2. I look at 8:1 about those who have faith, and 14:23 about those who have doubts about their faith.
Couple of my favorite scriptures is when Jesus told a guy ‘I have done nothing. It is your faith that has healed you.’ And when he said ‘your faith can move mountains’

14:23 he does something he does not have full confidence is correct, thus breaking the law of faith (Ro 1:17, 3:27, 14:5).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Apparently, there's something about the NT which you do not understand.

I would say the same to you

So if faith produces works/deeds.....

and THERE ARE NO WORKS/DEEDS....
is that person truly saved?

Would that person really have faith? Can you ever say you trust someone and never do anything they asked? That person is decieved. And as James said they faithwas dead

We are saved by grace through faith. If you do not have faith you’re not saved. Period

Do you understand that I'm BEYOND the salvation point, and so was Paul, and other writers, when he was teaching Christians HOW TO LIVE?

I am not going there because I am discussing how one is saved if you want to discuss a walk we can do this. But let’s get salvation down first

Your either saved or your not saved. Your not in between and salvation is not a set of stairs that goes up and down where you saved not saved saved not saved etc etc..

What do you suppose the following verses mean?

Ephessians 2:10
FOR WE ARE his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,

Please note: FOR WE ARE .....means that Paul is speaking to saved persons.

Again. Those people are saved we are not discussing those people

James 2:4-17
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Did James not know what he meant?


Hebrews 13:16
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.


DO NOT NEGLECT TO DO GOOD.....

Need more?
I've got plenty.

The NT is chock full of exhortations to DO GOOD WORKS.
It states this to BELIEVERS.

Now, if you want to deny what the NT states, that is your prerogative.
But also remember what James says here:

James 3:1
1Let not many [of you] become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

For too many years now you've been teaching this corrupted version of the NT teachings on works.

You have not proven to me you are not teaching a corrupted version of works. I am still waiting. Nothing you posted above has any bearing on our discussion I do not disagree with any of it

First I would recommend you get to know who you are talking with.

Please post 2 verses, or even one, that state that WE ARE TO DO NOTHING after salvation because works are NOT NECESSARY and we will be saved anyway.

Please post where I said a chilristian will not work after they are saved

Anything else you state is YOUR OPINION.
Your OPINION is not important to Christianity.

Thanks.

Nore is yours.

Now do you want to get down and discuss. Or act like a self righteous person who thinks he knows it all?

THIS is who James was speaking to:

2Consider it all joy, my brethren, James 1:2

James was speaking to new converts,,,,HIS BRETHREN.
He was teaching them HOW TO LIVE A CHRISTIANLY LIFE.

James was speaking to people who CLAIMED to have faith. Not to people who had real saving faith

Next

Where is the word LEGALIST in the NT?

Where is the word trinity in the bible

Come in man

This is your problem, and that of others on the thread:

You describe GOOD WORKS, which are demanded of Christians, as being legalistic.

No I do not. This is your problem and like many of others in this thread

You refuse to listen to what people are saying and assume you know. Then make a complete fool of yourself because you refuse to listen

I do not describe works of saved people as legalistic

I describe works of unsaved people trying to get saved by those works as legalistic

Please try to listen. Put your pride aside and listen

Which means that Paul, Peter, James, John, Matthew etc. just did not know what they were talking about.

That's what you're basically saying.

That we should listen TO YOU, instead of TO THEM.

Dude you’re not even hearing me. You proved this whole post you have not heard a word I have said. All you have done is prove this to the world. Can you listen is it possible that I can break into you that your not hearing and falsely accusing?

Or will you remain in your pride and continue to
Mock what you do not understand?

Paul said nothing else?
Your stuck in Ephesians 2:8......get on with it,
get sanctified.

Actually I can use John 1 3 4 5 6 Titus 3 Roman’s 4 and many ithers

So yeah let’s get on with it. Bring it on buddy!

2 Timothy 2:21
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

Really?
Read 2 Timothy 2:21 again.

And the following:

​

1 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Maybe you could ask yourself WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

Maybe you should ask yourself. What does EG really believe. Because from what we have witnessed you really do not know

1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

How are YOU abstaining from sexual morality?
Is it something you're doing or is the Holy Spirit forcing you?

Everything else is the same:
The Holy Spirit will never FORCE you to obey God,,,
He will only HELP you ..... The Holy Spirit is a HELPER....not an enforcer of God's law.
Unless you could demonstrate that He is by a verse or 2.

This statement is so convoluted I can't even reply to it.
Sanctification, what is required to get into heaven....
cannot get you into heaven....
only justification can....
but sanctification is a result of justificcation...??!!

Read again EG and write a coherent idea.

Not replying to nonsense.



Not reply to nonsense.


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Dude when you’re ready to listen come talk to me. I am not going to play your self righteous game. Come talk to me when your ready to talk and not falsely accuse me of things I do not believe and have never said

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Eternally Grateful

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I think you need to read my verses above and preferably the entire New Testament.

Could you post some verses that state that we are NOT to do good works because it would be self-righteous of us?
Thanks.



What does practicing righteousness make you?
It does not make you righteous?

You should get your thoughts together before writing them down.



Did I say I was good enough?
Please don't put words into my mouth since I will not be spending time here correcting what you THINK I said.



I don't know any Christian that thinks he's "good enough".
You have an incorrect concept of what God expects from you.



Again, read the above verses that I stated and explain how they're wrong.
They come straight out of the NT.

You stated that sanctification is a life-long process.
HOW are we sanctified?

It's your WORKS that Keep you sanctified.
If not, then what is?


Well, I don't think you're right.
So that's MY OPINION.
Are YOU interested in MY OPINION?
No.

Neither am I in yours.

Post scripture or don't bother replying to my posts.


Again,
HOW do you grow in Christ?



MUST. The word MUST.
When God states somethnig, it's a MUST.

Sorry, but the word is not being deleted out of my vocabulary.

WE MUST OBEY GOD.



You don't understand 1 Corinthians 3:4-15 either.
Incredible.
But you insist on teaching that works mean nothing.
Or, at least, that sure is what it sounds like.
Anything to get around them.


Here's the 3rd option:
You're saved by grace.
Jesus did HIS part.
Now YOU do yours.

Jesus said to pick up your cross daily and follow Him.
PICK UP YOUR CROSS.
What is your cross?


This whole notion of saving yourself is as boring as watching the grass grow.
Maybe we, as Christians, could stop saying nonsense?
I don't know anybody that believes they can save themselves.

You don't understand the New Covenant either.
WHERE in the NC does it state that works are not necessary/not desirable/not demanded by God?

More nonsense based on a misunderstanding of what I believe or an inability to admit your trying to earn salvation by you worjs. Not working because your saved

Either way I am not responding to someone who is unable to listen to what I believe and goes on rants of how he is going to set me straight when he does not have the fine print of what I believe set yet

When you’re ready to talk let me know. I love discussing the word

 

[mailmandan]

GodsGrace said: I suppose you know about eisegesis because you practice it very well.

It's works-salvationists who practice eisegesis very well.

Jesus PLAINLY STATES why those in Matthew 7:22-23 will not get into heaven.

Yes, Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and not in Christ alone. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ - Romans 3:24-28; Philippians 3:9) was still stained with sin. Hence, workers of iniquity/you who practice lawlessness.

There is no talk there about believers....

Since Jesus never knew them it's obvious, they were never saved. In John 17:3, we read - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people did not have this relationship with Jesus. Hence, they were not genuine believers.

Matthew 7:19-20 Jesus said:

19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.

In Matthew 7:17, Jesus said - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree is 'descriptive' of a believer and a bad tree is 'descriptive' of an unbeliever.

Matthew 7:21

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father

What is God's will for us unto salvation that these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 failed to do? In John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. This is the opposite of depart from Me you who practice lawlessness.

Matthew 7:23

23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

I don't see any words such as believers or non believers in these verses,

Apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ washing away our sins (Acts 10:43; Acts 26:18; Romans 3:24-28) one remains in their sins and in the eyes of God, such a person is considered one who practices lawlessness instead of righteousness. Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin/lawlessness. (1 John 3:9-10) Now do the math.

Now in regard to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church) I read Matthew 7:22 and was astonished! I remember thinking to myself, these many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of the natural man who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works.

 

[mailmandan]

GodsGrace said: FAITH ALONE.
There's no such animal in the NT.
There's only one verse that mentions faith alone and it's in the negative.

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, works? NO. *So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

In regard to James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

NOT by faith alone.

Not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14) Hence, faith alone.

Faith that stands alone is a dead faith.

Yes, faith that remains alone (barren of works) is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith, dead faith.

 

[GracePeace]

@CadyandZoe Ro 14 is a snapshot, an illustration, of what it means to be "not under Law but under grace", to "serve in newness of the Spirit not oldness of the letter".

They're "not under the jurisdiction of the law", but they're still "under" something--they're "under the jurisdiction" of the Spirit of Grace : "Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind".

WHAT GOOD does it do if Paul brings about "the obedience of faith among the nations" (Ro 1:5) if all "the Law of Faith" (Ro 3:27) entailed was "stop believing in and going about to establish the lie that you are righteous, and believe the truth that you are unrighteous, but God is righteous--and He does what is right when He forgives our unrighteousness for Christ's sake", but does not include "the nations" now being "under grace", serving in newness of spirit, by only doing things they're fully convinced are correct in their own minds, and "giving thanks" (Ro 14:6; Heb 13:15)?

Paul cares about bringing God's Kingdom to earth : "Nothing counts but keeping God's commandments." So does Jesus : "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

No, Romans 14 is a case study in the exact Biblical meaning, and what it looks like, for God's New Covenant people to be walking before Him in the new way of the Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

GodsGrace said: So, obedience is a work.

OK

Accomplishing multiple acts of obedience as a believer are good works. Why is that so hard to understand?

And of what faith are you?

The Christian faith.

Not Christian that's for sure.

You have the audacity to judge me as a non-Christian? That judgment call is well above your paygrade.

Salvation is not achieved by works.

Of course it isn't. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

How about doing God's will in order to REMAIN saved?

Here is what Paul states:

1 Corinthians 6:9

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

Show me where Paul stated here that this is God's will for us in order to "remain saved." No such wording in that verse. In 1 Corinthians 6:9, Paul clarified that the unrighteous (not the righteous) will not inherit the kingdom of God? The unrighteous (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) are in contrast with the righteous here, those who are washed, sanctified and justified. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

In Galatians 5:19-21 we see a similar list of sins and Paul goes on to say that those who ‘practice’ such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. This is ‘descriptive’ of those who are unrighteous. In 1 John 3:9-10, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Another 'descriptive' contrast between the righteous and the unrighteous.

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

I often hear works-salvationists cite John 3:36 from the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by "obedience/works" in addition to believing. In regard to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The KJV renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

GodsGrace said: Luke 13:6-9 Jesus said:

6And He [began] telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.

7"And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'

8"And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, [fine]; but if not, cut it down.'"

Who does the fig tree represent in this parable?

JESUS said that if a tree bears no fruit, it will be cut down.

Jesus said a good tree (which is 'descriptive' of believers) bears good fruit but a bad tree which is 'descriptive' of unbelievers) bears bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

You can also find this in

John 15:5-6

ide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither [can] you unless you abide in Me. 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

I tend to pay attention to what JESUS teaches.

Based on your eisegesis you don't pay close enough attention.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Accomplishing multiple acts of obedience as a believer are good works. Why is that so hard to understand?

The Christian faith.

You have the audacity to judge me as a non-Christian? That judgment call is well above your paygrade.

Of course it isn't. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Show me where Paul stated here that this is God's will for us in order to "remain saved." No such wording in that verse. In 1 Corinthians 6:9, Paul clarified that the unrighteous (not the righteous) will not inherit the kingdom of God? The unrighteous (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) are in contrast with the righteous here, those who are washed, sanctified and justified. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

In Galatians 5:19-21 we see a similar list of sins and Paul goes on to say that those who ‘practice’ such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. This is ‘descriptive’ of those who are unrighteous. In 1 John 3:9-10, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Another 'descriptive' contrast between the righteous and the unrighteous.

I often hear works-salvationists cite John 3:36 from the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by "obedience/works" in addition to believing. In regard to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The KJV renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

CONTINUED...

It’s amazing how inept some people are at understanding what others say

 

[GodsGrace]

I would say the same to you

Would that person really have faith? Can you ever say you trust someone and never do anything they asked? That person is decieved. And as James said they faithwas dead

We are saved by grace through faith. If you do not have faith you’re not saved. Period

Agreed.

I am not going there because I am discussing how one is saved if you want to discuss a walk we can do this. But let’s get salvation down first

I thought you mentioned Ephesians 2:8-9 which I agree with and I asked you to proceed to verse 10.
Do you agree with verse 10?
You seem to based on what you're posting now.

Your either saved or your not saved. Your not in between and salvation is not a set of stairs that goes up and down where you saved not saved saved not saved etc etc..

Agreed.

Again. Those people are saved we are not discussing those people

We're speaking of Ephesians 2:10 here.
I KNOW those persons are SAVED.
I also see that it states that we're created for GOOD WORKS.

Do you think unsaved people do God's good works?
You're really confused EG.

I'm discussing SAVED PERSONS.
I'm saying SAVED PERSONS ARE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS.
As all the verses I've posted support.

If you think unsaved persons could be saved by doing good works...
this is something YOU will have to work out on your own.

You have not proven to me you are not teaching a corrupted version of works. I am still waiting. Nothing you posted above has any bearing on our discussion I do not disagree with any of it

So you agree with James 2:4-17 and Hebrews 3:16 admonishing US the saved, to DO GOOD WORKS?
If so, what are we arguing about exactly?

First I would recommend you get to know who you are talking with.

I know who you are EG.
We wasted time on this years ago.
I see you've made no progress and are still misquoting what Jesus said and Paul and James and Peter, etc.

Please post where I said a chilristian will not work after they are saved

Your entire postings are stating that it is not necessary to do good works.
If this is not what you mean, then maybe you should change your wording....
it would also be helpful to new Christians that might be reading along and are getting confused with these nuances.

Let's put it this way:

IS IT NECESSARY FOR A SAVED PERSON TO DO GOOD WORKS?

There, nice and easy.
Is it a YES or a No

I ask this at times, I might have already asked you right here on this thread.
BUT, I never get an answer.

Nore is yours.

Now do you want to get down and discuss. Or act like a self righteous person who thinks he knows it all?

Here's the difference between us EG.
I post verses to support what I state.

You haven't posted any yet.
I don't like to discuss....
I like to post verse and THEN discuss what they mean.

We all think we know it all , don't we?
This is what's wrong with Protestantism.
And I'm protestant...and I KNOW we have a great problem that would need to be resolved.

What we're discussing would be one of them.
There is only ONE TRUTH.
Either you're right or I am.
Not both.

And, there are supporters of both you and me on this very thread.
So how do we find out who's right?

Post scripture please.


1 of 2

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed.


I thought you mentioned Ephesians 2:8-9 which I agree with and I asked you to proceed to verse 10.
Do you agree with verse 10?
You seem to based on what you're posting now.


Agreed.

We're speaking of Ephesians 2:10 here.

I am not. The people in vs 10 have already been saved by grace through faith minus works Vs 10 is a result of vs 8-9

I KNOW those persons are SAVED.
I also see that it states that we're created for GOOD WORKS.

That’s not the point of our discussion

Do you think unsaved people do God's good works?
You're really confused EG.

I'm discussing SAVED PERSONS.
I'm saying SAVED PERSONS ARE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS.
As all the verses I've posted support.

So are you saying their continued salvation is dependent on it? Let’s get to the point ok?

If you think unsaved persons could be saved by doing good works...
this is something YOU will have to work out on your own.

I do not think so. But you appear to be saying this. That is why I am questioning you

So you agree with James 2:4-17 and Hebrews 3:16 admonishing US the saved, to DO GOOD WORKS?
If so, what are we arguing about exactly?

I am not arguing

I am proving a point. Can you stick to it and focus?

I know who you are EG.
We wasted time on this years ago.
I see you've made no progress and are still misquoting what Jesus said and Paul and James and Peter, etc.

So tell us. How do I miss the point

Your entire postings are stating that it is not necessary to do good works.

Nooe

My point is we will do good works

You still prove you have a comprehension problem.

If this is not what you mean, then maybe you should change your wording....
it would also be helpful to new Christians that might be reading along and are getting confused with these nuances.

Let's put it this way:

IS IT NECESSARY FOR A SAVED PERSON TO DO GOOD WORKS?

To be saved? No
To stay saved? No

A saved person WILL do good works

You’re trying to make it required when in reality it is a natural thing. We are created for good works and we will (not
Might) do them

Why is this hard for you to understand ?

There, nice and easy.
Is it a YES or a No

I ask this at times, I might have already asked you right here on this thread.
BUT, I never get an answer.

Do you think work is required to stay saved

I have asked you this multiple times. Will you answer?

Here's the difference between us EG.
I post verses to support what I state.

Yawn

You haven't posted any yet.
I don't like to discuss....
I like to post verse and THEN discuss what they mean.

We all think we know it all , don't we?
This is what's wrong with Protestantism.
And I'm protestant...and I KNOW we have a great problem that would need to be resolved.

What we're discussing would be one of them.
There is only ONE TRUTH.
Either you're right or I am.
Not both.

And, there are supporters of both you and me on this very thread.
So how do we find out who's right?

Post scripture please.


1 of 2

Answer the question. I can’t help unless you let us all know what you believe concerning how we are saved

Your all over the place

 

[GodsGrace]

James was speaking to people who CLAIMED to have faith. Not to people who had real saving faith

James 1:2
2Consider it all joy, my brethren

James 1:2- 3
when you encounter various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

James 1:16-17
16Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above,

James 1:19-22
19This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger;
20for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.
21Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.


If you believe James, in his letter, was speaking to fake Christians, then you know more about his audience than he did.
James seems to believe he was speaking to HIS BRETHREN....those like himself who had faith in God.

He even mentions, again, that we're not only to hear, but to DO good works.

Will wait for you to explain the above.

Next

Where is the word trinity in the bible

Come in man

No I do not. This is your problem and like many of others in this thread

You refuse to listen to what people are saying and assume you know. Then make a complete fool of yourself because you refuse to listen

I do not describe works of saved people as legalistic

I describe works of unsaved people trying to get saved by those works as legalistic

Here we are again.
So you're speaking about unsaved persons trying to get saved by good works??

I DON'T KNOW ANY CHRISTIAN THAT BELIEVES HE CAN BE SAVED BY DOING GOOD WORKS.

So, could we stop please.
Could you MAKE UP YOUR MIND exactly what it is you believe and exactly what is is you're debating?

Again:

ARE SAVED PERSONS REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

Please try to listen. Put your pride aside and listen

Dude you’re not even hearing me. You proved this whole post you have not heard a word I have said. All you have done is prove this to the world. Can you listen is it possible that I can break into you that your not hearing and falsely accusing?

Or will you remain in your pride and continue to
Mock what you do not understand?

Actually I can use John 1 3 4 5 6 Titus 3 Roman’s 4 and many ithers

So yeah let’s get on with it. Bring it on buddy!

Maybe you should ask yourself. What does EG really believe. Because from what we have witnessed you really do not know

Dude when you’re ready to listen come talk to me. I am not going to play your self righteous game. Come talk to me when your ready to talk and not falsely accuse me of things I do not believe and have never said

I don't need to talk to you EG.
I'm getting tired of your double-mindedness.

Answer my simple question above, which I've asked twice now.

That will clear up any misundersanding.

And if you do wish to reply to this,
PLEASE use scripture that supports your position...
whatever that position is.


2 of 2

 

[Eternally Grateful]

James 1:2
2Consider it all joy, my brethren

James 1:2- 3
when you encounter various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

James 1:16-17
16Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above,

James 1:19-22
19This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger;
20for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.
21Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.


If you believe James, in his letter, was speaking to fake Christians, then you know more about his audience than he did.
James seems to believe he was speaking to HIS BRETHREN....those like himself who had faith in God.

James

What does it prophit a person if the CLAIM to have faith but has no works. Can that faith save them?

If you think heaters of the word and not doers are saved. Then you are already off to a bad start

He even mentions, again, that we're not only to hear, but to DO good works.

Will wait for you to explain the above.

Already did it

Here we are again.
So you're speaking about unsaved persons trying to get saved by good works??

That’s what you appear to be oreaching

I DON'T KNOW ANY CHRISTIAN THAT BELIEVES HE CAN BE SAVED BY DOING GOOD WORKS.

lol you appear to be saying it and grace peace defiantly believes it as many others di

Do you think speaking in all caps will make you right?

Your decieved if you think no o e teaches it

So, could we stop please.
Could you MAKE UP YOUR MIND exactly what it is you believe and exactly what is is you're debating?

Again:

ARE SAVED PERSONS REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?



I don't need to talk to you EG.
I'm getting tired of your double-mindedness.

Answer my simple question above, which I've asked twice now.

That will clear up any misundersanding.

And if you do wish to reply to this,
PLEASE use scripture that supports your position...
whatever that position is.


2 of 2

This can all stop if you just answer

Are works required to be saved. Stay saved and or keep from losing salvation

A simple yes or no will
Suffice

I will say your pride is getting on my nerve either show you understand what I am asking or prove your just another know it all who is unable to
Comprehend what others are trying to show you

 

[CadyandZoe]

@CadyandZoe Ro 14 is a snapshot, an illustration, of what it means to be "not under Law but under grace", to "serve in newness of the Spirit not oldness of the letter".

They're "not under the jurisdiction of the law", but they're still "under" something--they're "under the jurisdiction" of the Spirit of Grace : "Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind".

WHAT GOOD does it do if Paul brings about "the obedience of faith among the nations" (Ro 1:5) if all "the Law of Faith" (Ro 3:27) entailed was "stop believing in and going about to establish the lie that you are righteous, and believe the truth that you are unrighteous, but God is righteous--and He does what is right when He forgives our unrighteousness for Christ's sake", but does not include "the nations" now being "under grace", serving in newness of spirit, by only doing things they're fully convinced are correct in their own minds, and "giving thanks" (Ro 14:6; Heb 13:15)?

Paul cares about bringing God's Kingdom to earth : "Nothing counts but keeping God's commandments." So does Jesus : "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

No, Romans 14 is a case study in the exact Biblical meaning, and what it looks like, for God's New Covenant people to be walking before Him in the new way of the Spirit.

You lost me here. I'm sorry but I don't understand this post.