No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

[GracePeace]

GP
There were 3 types of Law in the OT:
Civil
Ceremonial
Moral

The civil and ceremonial law (including sacrifices since Jesus was the last one necessary) were abolished.

The Moral Law, which you cite above will never be abolished because God is morality itself and the 10 commandments are forever --- they're written on stone.

We're not "under" any part of "the Law", as I've proven.
You're welcome to address the actual arguments I've furnished along those lines.

Not only will no one be saved by the works OF THE LAW, but also by works/good deeds in general.
An atheist may do more good deeds than a Christian....but his unbelief will bring judgment upon him.

Actually, we're saved by God's righteousness.
God's righteousness is by grace through faith.
First, it's believing in God's Son, then it's walking in love.
When we do not believe, or we do not walk in love, that's sin.
Those who sin are condemned (Ro 14:23), not justified (Ro 2:6-16).

This is what I like to say....let's see if you agree. If I end up staying here, you'll be hearing me say it many times.....:

Faith without works is a dead faith.
Works without faith are dead works.

IOW, you need both to please God.

I think you're missing the point I made.
"The Law of Faith" is not "just believe".
"The Law of Faith" is a singular two staged Law.
That is proven in 1 Jn 3:23,24, and passages like Ro 14.
If not, why is the guy who doesn't walk in faith "condemned"?

The problem here is the doctrine of FAITH ALONE.
Faith does not stand alone but will always produce good works/deeds.
Goes back, I guess, to what I said above about faith and works needing each other or each becomes invalid.

I don't agree faith produces good works.
I believe people can have faith in Jesus, but then fail to produce good works.
An example is Ro 14:23.
Paul never meant to teach "faith alone".
He meant to teach "faith in Christ, and walk in faith".
It's all grace through faith.
"I was abundant in labors above them all, yet, not I, but the grace with me."
"Fight the fight of faith. Lay hold on eternal life to which you were called."
This is why evil works are considered a "denial" of Christ.
"The Law of Faith" (Ro 1:5, 3:27) is a singular two-staged Law.

Absolutely.
We're here out of love, not fear.
A slave works because he fears....
A friend works because he loves.

Yep! So the OSAS crowd are right about that.
It's a crucial thing they are right about, though it would be better if they could reach that point by correct argumentation, not nonsense.

AMEN!!

This has always been my point to.
Why mix everything up?
Why not just say YES OBEDIENCE IS NECESSARY.
And that obedience incompasses works/deeds....the fruit of salvation.

I don't agree works are the fruit of salvation, as if it without exception flows from it.

I was on another forum where some blatantly stated that they could even blaspheme the Holy Spirit and STILL be saved !!

"Interesting".

As you said....some confusion here.

And to say that faith is a work when Paul stated emphatically that it cannot be both...
if salvation is by faith then it cannot be by works, and V V.
So even the NT is not believed.

They do believe some truth. Before his vision of the unclean animals, Peter was in error, thinking only Jews could be saved, and he had to still keep the dietary law after Christ's resurrection, but that did not mean God was not with him. So, also, these people are in error, but that does not mean God is not with them.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Waiting to return to topic everybody.

we are just responding to you like you respond to everyone else

Practice what you preach?

 

[CadyandZoe]

As already explained to you, over and over and over again, "belief" is a "command" (1 Jn 3:23,24), thus, disobeying that command is, by definition, a sin : even if we granted that "we only need to believe", which I don't, it is a sin to not believe, and when people are led away by a false Gospel, that is breaking God's command, the Law of Faith, which is actually a singular two-staged Law (i. believe in the Name of God's Son, ii. love one another--this is why sinful behavior is termed "denying the Lord").

Okay, belief is a command. But not all beliefs are commanded. Romans 14:23 is not talking about commanded beliefs. God doesn't command anyone to believe that eating meat is okay.

 

[GracePeace]

Okay, belief is a command. But not all beliefs are commanded. Romans 14:23 is not talking about commanded beliefs. God doesn't command anyone to believe that eating meat is okay.

Yes, actually, it is a binding command.
If not, he could not have sinned and been condemned.
"The Law of faith" is not merely "believe in Christ".
"The Law of faith" is a singular two-staged command.
In 1 Jn 3, he says "if we keep God's commands" we have confidence.
Then he shifts to "This is God's command".
"Believe in the Name of God's Son, and love one another."
That is a singular command, so that breaking its latter part is breaking its former.
This is why sin is also called "denying Christ".
It's all grace and faith--faith in Christ, and then walking in faith.
("Each man has his gift"--his manner of walking is grace.)
"Faith works by love."
Walking in faith is walking in love; love fulfills the whole Law.
Those who walk after the spirit, walk in faith, fulfill the Law.
The issue isn't eating meat, the issue is faith.
The individual has a conviction worked in him by God.
"I will write My Law on their hearts and minds."
This is how Gentile believers are "doers of the Law" without the Law (Ro 2).
Walking in that conviction is loving God and others.
Failing to walk in that conviction is not loving God and others.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You can "not see" the evidence all you want.

That's not true. I am not allowed to "not" see the evidence. Either the evidence is there or it isn't and I say it isn't there.

As already explained to you, Paul says they "HAD run well".
That is an explicit acknowledgement that they HAD had faith.
AFTERWARDS, someone "hindered" them from "obeying the truth" (Gal 5:7).
Together with Galatians 3:1+ there should be no question they'd had faith.
They heard the Gospel, believed, and received the Spirit.
Afterwards, they deserted God, they were severed from Christ.
By definition, you cannot desert something you haven't been with.
By definition, you cannot be severed from something you weren't a part of.

While all that might be true, you have yet to demonstrate from the book of Galatians that someone who was once "in Christ," as Paul defines it in Romans 8, has fallen from the faith. Finding a record of some believers who fell from the faith isn't enough. You can't simply assume that everyone who fell from the faith was once "in Christ," as Paul defines it in Romans 8.

The locus of our disagreement is the phrase "in Christ" as Paul means it in Romans 8. And that is the essential aspect of his discussion you need to allow.

 

[CadyandZoe]

One proof: those "in Christ" have "no condemnation" (Ro 8:1); but the one who sins is "condemned" (Ro 14:23). "In Him there is no sin."

I don't know what you mean by "in Him there is no sin" because you don't seem to understand the phrase the way I do. (not that you are wrong necessarily. It's just that I am having trouble understanding your point.)

 

[GracePeace]

That's not true.

What I meant was that whether you "see" it or not makes no difference as to whether it is there or not.

I am not allowed to "not" see the evidence. Either the evidence is there or it isn't and I say it isn't there.

I've acknowledged that you have that view.

While all that might be true, you have yet to demonstrate from the book of Galatians that someone who was once "in Christ," as Paul defines it in Romans 8, has fallen from the faith.

So you say, but Galatians 5:7 says they HAD run well, but had been hindered from obeying the truth.

Finding a record of some believers who fell from the faith isn't enough. You can't simply assume that everyone who fell from the faith was once "in Christ," as Paul defines it in Romans 8.

Being in the faith is being in Christ.
As soon as Cornelius believed, he received the Spirit.
1 Jn 3:23,24 says if we keep His commands we abide in Him and He gives us His Spirit.
Clearly, when the Galatians believed and received the Spirit they were in Christ.

The locus of our disagreement is the phrase "in Christ" as Paul means it in Romans 8. And that is the essential aspect of his discussion you need to allow.

There is no ambiguity or uncertainty : believing in the Name of God's Son is obedience to God's Command, thus you qualify to abide in Christ, thus you receive the Spirit, eternal life, that is only located in Christ (1 Jn 3:23,24, 5:11).

 

[GracePeace]

I don't know what you mean by "in Him there is no sin" because you don't seem to understand the phrase the way I do. (not that you are wrong necessarily. It's just that I am having trouble understanding your point.)

Instances of sinning are instances of following idols (1 Jn 5:21), instances of not remaining (1 Jn 2:28)--in the Galatians' believing in "another Gospel", that was "deserting God" (Gal 1:6), because it is idolatry (1 Jn 5:21), breaking God's command (1 Jn 3:23,24).
The persuasion did not come from God (Gal 5:8), thus it came from a demon (1 Ti 4:1), and the idols are demons (1 Co 19,20)--they were committing idolatry (1 Jn 5:21), not remaining (1 Jn 2:28).
To sin is to not remain in Christ. In Christ there is no sin.

This is the entire OP : those who sin do not remain, and we know this, because "there is no condemnation for those in Christ" (Ro 8:1), yet the believer who sins "is condemned" (Ro 14:23).

 

[GodsGrace]

It does not mean it does either. and again I point you to the rest of my post.

No

Yes. As does John

A child of God is not perfect. He will chose the flesh over the spirit.

But he can not live in sin. Its impossible.

Agreed.

I am not sure what your asking.

Actually they both stem from pride. so in essence they both are rooted in the same self focused belief.

But how could our good works be rooted in pride when it's Jesus Himself that states we are to do them?
"Let your light shine before men".....
what else could this possibly mean??

How does our "letting our light shine" be prideful?

1. Licentiousness or easy believism states " can live however I want, I said a prayer and am saved forever"
the other says "I must try to help save myself. that it can not be so easy as trusting in God."

Both are rooted in I statements, and not in Christ, and both will reject salvation by grace alone through faith alone

FAITH ALONE.
There's no such animal in the NT.
There's only one verse that mentions faith alone and it's in the negative.

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

NOT by faith alone.

Faith that stands alone is a dead faith.

I know many, In fact @GracePeace does. as do many others in this very chatroom

If your depending on self for salvation, your in trouble

Actually, yes, in a sense we are to depend on ourselves for our salvation..
NOT justification, but sanctification - which is a life-long journey and will not be accomplished on this earth (as some seem to believe) but it's a journey that must be taken nonetheless.

Who was Paul speaking to when he said:

1 Corinthians 6:7-9
7Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. [You do] this even to [your] brethren.
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Paul said believers were defrauding brethren.
He was putting the responsibility on the actual persons who were bringing their brethren to court.

The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God....
This means that
The righteous WILL inherit the Kingdom of God.

It's those that are SELF-RIGHTEOUS that you're speaking of.
Being righteous is a good thing in God's eyes.

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.


Jesus said.


Matthew 5:20
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

This does not make sense. can you explain further

No problem.
I was asking the difference between two verses in 1 John.
I see that you know the difference. Not everyone does.

True

No. I reject Calvinistic theology

As do all Christians except the reformed.

My point is why do we work.. what is the motivation.

do you believe you can do good. and in that good deed. sin in doing that deed?

Thats because I am talking about HOW we were saved.

BUT
All Christians believe we're saved by faith alone and nothing else.
So the way you speak and others, makes it sound like good works are not necessary for, let's say CONTINUED salvation.

For the purpose of sanctification - continued salvation - we must obey God.
If we obey God we do good works.

This is not an opinion we can have...
Jesus, Paul and all the writers state that good works are necessary.
FOR SANCTIFICATION

Or do you not even believe this?

not what happens AFTER we are saved. so verse 10 does not relate to my comments

What do you mean?
Verse 10 of Eph 2 states that we are created for good works.
What problem do you have with what is clearly written?

Ever heard of the law?

If we sin even once, (even if we just stumble we are guilty of all. Moses even said, cursed is the one who does not obey every word. literally every jot and tittle.

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

This is a good start

So you're under THE LAW now?

I thought we were in the New Covenant.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes Gods STANDARD “IS” PERFECTION!

Gen 17:
[1] And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Deut.18
[13] [Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Heb 10
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



Highly doubt you are equipped to discuss.

Then why are you posting to me?
You enjoy wasting your time??

 

[GodsGrace]

So, you don't understand the descriptive contrast between believers and unbelievrs in John 5:28-29? You also try to "shoehorn" obedience/works "into" believes. The end result is salvation by works.

So obedience is a work?
So believers in Jesus are not supposed to be obedient?

John 3:19 - And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. *DESCRIPTIVE of unbelievers. In CONTRAST with verse 21, which is
*DESCRIPTIVE of believers.

Evil is reflected in fleeing from the light and evil deeds are done in darkness, while those who practice the truth come to the Light and good deeds are wrought in God.

What does GOOD DEEDS ARE WROUGHT IN GOD mean to you?

Here is what Jesus said about good deeds and evil deeds:

Matthew 7:21
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven

Matthew 7:24
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matthew 12:48-50
50"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."


Now, do the above sound descriptive to you or prescriptive?

I do believe that Jesus came to us to teach us how to get to heaven.
In my understanding that would be PRESCRIPTIVE.

 

[GracePeace]

Instances of sinning are instances of following idols (1 Jn 5:21), instances of not remaining (1 Jn 2:28)--in the Galatians' believing in "another Gospel", that was "deserting God" (Gal 1:6), because it is idolatry (1 Jn 5:21), breaking God's command (1 Jn 3:23,24).
The persuasion did not come from God (Gal 5:8), thus it came from a demon (1 Ti 4:1), and the idols are demons (1 Co 19,20)--they were committing idolatry (1 Jn 5:21), not remaining (1 Jn 2:28).
To sin is to not remain in Christ. In Christ there is no sin.

This is the entire OP : those who sin do not remain, and we know this, because "there is no condemnation for those in Christ" (Ro 8:1), yet the believer who sins "is condemned" (Ro 14:23).

@CadyandZoe Tangentially, the only part that gets me, the bridge I'm missing, that I haven't crossed, is that the manner of living, walking by faith, being described is described as "giving thanks" (Ro 14:6), whereas I have the habit of focusing more on averting punishment, which is a serious error, because the lazy servant, who thinks that way, goes to hell (Mt 25).

As mentioned, I grew up with a Muslim terrorist step father who was extremely severe with us, so maybe that's why I miss certain things, certain things of substance.

 

[Taken]

Waiting to return to topic everybody.

Not much to discuss…

TOPIC..
No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Rom 14:23?

No condemnation For Those IN Christ…
True…

But…Sinning Believers Are Condemned

Irrelevant.
Rom 14:23 says nothing about “sinning believers”.

Rom 14:23 is speaking about Doubters and a Damnation consequence trusting (Eating, Consuming, Believing )Lies, rather than Gods truths…

Doubters ARE NOT Believers!

“IF” established the “condition” of a Doubter.


Rom 14:
[23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed.



But how could our good works be rooted in pride when it's Jesus Himself that states we are to do them?
"Let your light shine before men".....
what else could this possibly mean??

I think your missing the point
If I am working to earn, maintian or prevent myself from losing salvation. It is called legalism. I am working for a reward,. or as Paul said, A wage, and I can boast of those works ( I saved myself or am saving myself by the works)

I am nt talking about works which proceed out of or are a result of my salvation. Those are totally different works.

How does our "letting our light shine" be prideful?

If your doing it to be saved. Your boasting of saving yourse.f

Again. the context of why we do it is my point

FAITH ALONE.
There's no such animal in the NT.

Your right. Faith always produces works.

By my salvation is by Gods grace alone, given only through my faith alone.. Not of works lest we should boast.

There's only one verse that mentions faith alone and it's in the negative.

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

NOT by faith alone.

Faith that stands alone is a dead faith.

Yes and who was James talking to? The licentious person who CLAIMED they had faith, but had no works

James does not contradict paul. fighting the legalist who claimed we are saved by faith plus works.

Even paul said we are saved by grace through faith, not of works (faith alone) and that it is not of works of righteousness which we have done (faith alone) but by his mercy he saved us.

Actually, yes, in a sense we are to depend on ourselves for our salvation..

That would be a foolish thing to do. SInce you can not save yourself.

NOT justification, but sanctification - which is a life-long journey and will not be accomplished on this earth (as some seem to believe) but it's a journey that must be taken nonetheless.

Your right

But sanctification is a work of God even that is not your work

As hebrews said, By one sacrifice, he has perfected forever (justified) those who are being sanctified.

Sanctification will not get you to heaven. Only justification can do that, Sanctification is a result of justification and an ongoing growth in christ.

Who was Paul speaking to when he said:

1 Corinthians 6:7-9
7Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. [You do] this even to [your] brethren.
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Paul said believers were defrauding brethren.
He was putting the responsibility on the actual persons who were bringing their brethren to court.

Yes, And was Paul bot justified in doing so?

The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God....

Then no one will inherit the kingdom of God. for all have sinned, there are non righteous no not one

wIthough the righteousness of God given to us. we are lost with no hope. why would you trust in self. Your already guilty as am I..

This means that
The righteous WILL inherit the Kingdom of God.

Yep..amen

It's those that are SELF-RIGHTEOUS that you're speaking of.

Which is anyone who uses works and how good they are as a mean to get to heaven.. They are working for a wage, and in doing so. reject the gift of God which saves everyone.

Being righteous is a good thing in God's eyes.

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

Practicing righteousness does not make you righteous. It just means instead of practicing sin (as the unsaved do) you practice doing the things of God.

Jesus said.


Matthew 5:20
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Amen, And in the people who jesus spoke to. According to the law No one reached that state. he was making a point, You think these righteous religious people are good. Well they are not good enough,. so how can you ever think of being good enough

he was pointing them to grace. and away from thinking they were good enough

No problem.
I was asking the difference between two verses in 1 John.
I see that you know the difference. Not everyone does.

Thank you

As do all Christians except the reformed.

Amen

But we can not go 180 degrees out.. Thats like rejecting licentiousness and turning to legalism. or in the case of many jews. rejecting legalism, and going to licentiousness.

BUT
All Christians believe we're saved by faith alone and nothing else.
So the way you speak and others, makes it sound like good works are not necessary for, let's say CONTINUED salvation.

Necessary to keep us saved?

If they were. I could save myself by my works.. Thats impossible. my works can no more keep me saved then they could make me saved

For the purpose of sanctification - continued salvation - we must obey God.

Sanctification is not continued salvation, Thats legalism, and was held by the jews and was fought by Paul in most of his ministry

Salvation is justification (declared innocent of all crimes, or declared righteous) and also positional sanctification, or our position in Christ.

there is also conditional sanctification, or christian growth. Salvation is not dependent on conditional sanctification,

If we obey God we do good works.

true, and we produce fruit. But we do not keep ourself saved

This is not an opinion we can have...
Jesus, Paul and all the writers state that good works are necessary.
FOR SANCTIFICATION

Yes, But not for Justification (salvation)

we need to seperate the true

I am perfected forever (saved) i am being sanctified as I grow in christ

Or do you not even believe this?

No, this is legalism. or as paul calls it foolish, having begun in the spirit (faith) we are now trying to perfect it with the flesh (works)

What do you mean?
Verse 10 of Eph 2 states that we are created for good works.

yes

I am not denying this. Please try to listen

A child of God WILL do good works. The word must take it from your vocabulary, there is no must about it, THEY WILL.

Now not everyone will doi the same amount of works, but those works will be tried by fire.. to reveal what kind of work it is and it will be rewarded.

But they will never save us, or keep us saved.. That is legalism.

What problem do you have with what is clearly written?

I have no problem, But I think you have a problem understanding what is written.

So you're under THE LAW now?

No. But if I was a legalist. like many here (and it seems yourself) you would be under law

Your under the law. or your under grace. there is not a third option.

Your either saved forever because you recieved Gods gift in faith. or your trying to save yourself. which means you put yourself under law.. Because you in fact reject grace

I thought we were in the New Covenant.

I am, so are you. will you come under grace. and enter the rest God came to give?

 

[GracePeace]

Not much to discuss…

TOPIC..
No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Rom 14:23?

No condemnation For Those IN Christ…
True…



Irrelevant.
Rom 14:23 says nothing about “sinning believers”.

Rom 14:23 is speaking about Doubters and a Damnation consequence trusting (Eating, Consuming, Believing )Lies, rather than Gods truths…

Doubters ARE NOT Believers!

“IF” established the “condition” of a Doubter.


Rom 14:
[23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

The rule "each is to be convinced in his own mind" (Ro 14:5) is for believers. The one who breaks that rule, therefore, had been bound to it (is a believer). Ro 14:23 is a believer who breaks the rule.

Paul wouldn't say "an unbeliever is bound to this rule for believers". Plus, he already knows unbelievers are condemned. Why would he announce, in the middle of instructions for believers, "An unbeliever who eats without faith is condemned." ? The unbeliever is condemned already bc he doesn't believe in Christ. You're saying "Now that the unbeliever has eaten with doubt he's condemned." That makes no sense.

 

[GodsGrace]

We're not "under" any part of "the Law", as I've proven.
You're welcome to address the actual arguments I've furnished along those lines.

I don't intend to address your arguments GP.
There are 3 types of law in the OT.

I'm not here to teach anyone anything.
You could look this up yourself.

The MORAL LAW will never be abolished.

The other 2 are, if for no other reason, out of pure necessity.

Actually, we're saved by God's righteousness.
God's righteousness is by grace through faith.
First, it's believing in God's Son, then it's walking in love.
When we do not believe, or we do not walk in love, that's sin.
Those who sin are condemned (Ro 14:23), not justified (Ro 2:6-16).

I agree.

I think you're missing the point I made.
"The Law of Faith" is not "just believe".
"The Law of Faith" is a singular two staged Law.
That is proven in 1 Jn 3:23,24, and passages like Ro 14.
If not, why is the guy who doesn't walk in faith "condemned"?

I agree.

I don't agree faith produces good works.
I believe people can have faith in Jesus, but then fail to produce good works.
An example is Ro 14:23.
Paul never meant to teach "faith alone".
He meant to teach "faith in Christ, and walk in faith".

How does one have faith in Jesus but fail to produce good works??

Let's read together:

John 15:1-6
1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every [branch] that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither [can] you unless you abide in Me.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Verse 2: The Father takes away every branch that does not produce good fruit.

Verse 4: To produce good fruit we need to abide in Christ.

Verse 6: Anyone that does NOT abide in Christ (and thus does not produce much good fruit) is thrown away just like a branch,,,dries up,,,,is gathered,,,and is cast into the fire and burned.


Which verse do you not agree with?

It's all grace through faith.
"I was abundant in labors above them all, yet, not I, but the grace with me."
"Fight the fight of faith. Lay hold on eternal life to which you were called."
This is why evil works are considered a "denial" of Christ.
"The Law of Faith" (Ro 1:5, 3:27) is a singular two-staged Law.

Agreed.

Yep! So the OSAS crowd are right about that.
It's a crucial thing they are right about, though it would be better if they could reach that point by correct argumentation, not nonsense.

I don't agree works are the fruit of salvation, as if it without exception flows from it.

What is the fruit of salvation?
Do we continue in evil works?

In which cases would you make an exception?
I'd think that you have something specific in mind.

They do believe some truth. Before his vision of the unclean animals, Peter was in error, thinking only Jews could be saved, and he had to still keep the dietary law after Christ's resurrection, but that did not mean God was not with him. So, also, these people are in error, but that does not mean God is not with them.

Agreed again.

Incorrect doctrine does not make a person become lost again.

Unless the doctrine ends up causing disobedience to God in the person.
My whole point is that God must be obeyed.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't intend to address your arguments GP.

That's an interesting way to "discuss".

There are 3 types of law in the OT.

I'm not here to teach anyone anything.
You could look this up yourself.

The MORAL LAW will never be abolished.

The other 2 are, if for no other reason, out of pure necessity.

I never said the Law was "abolished", as if God doesn't want us to love Him and others, I said the MEANS, the METHOD, is Grace, not the Law.

How does one have faith in Jesus but fail to produce good works??

Romans 14:23

Let's read together:

John 15:1-6
1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every [branch] that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither [can] you unless you abide in Me.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Verse 2: The Father takes away every branch that does not produce good fruit.

Verse 4: To produce good fruit we need to abide in Christ.

Verse 6: Anyone that does NOT abide in Christ (and thus does not produce much good fruit) is thrown away just like a branch,,,dries up,,,,is gathered,,,and is cast into the fire and burned.


Which verse do you not agree with?

I disagree with your characterization of these words which seem contrary to Ro 14:5,23.

What is the fruit of salvation?
Do we continue in evil works?

What did I say that made you think I thought we continue in evil?

In which cases would you make an exception?
I'd think that you have something specific in mind.

Every time you sin you prove good works do not automatically flow from salvation.

My whole point is that God must be obeyed.

When did I deny that?

 

[Taken]

@mailmandan ….
How is it that people claiming to BE Believers, claiming to BE Christians, claiming to BE Converted Christians….

Have ZERO BASIC understanding of WHAT “A” particular work “IS” and the EXPRESS “GIFT” given FOR that one work….and what work”S” “ARE” and the “REWARDS” given for “THOSE WORK-S” ??
YET think themselves…prepared to “Debate” the topic… !!

ONE WORK…BELIEF in the Lord God, until the moment our body mortally dies…(or crucified with Christ and accounted Bodily DEAD)…
Grace….of Gods Forgiveness.
GIFT……uh…THE “GIFT” of SALVATION of our soul.
GIFT……uh…THE “GIFT” of Gods SEED, to quicken our spirit.
GIFT……uh…THE “GIFT” of Gods SPIRIT, Gods WORD, to DWELL “IN” us.

ANY WORKS…that Glorify the Lord God…uh…REWARDS!

Rewards…ARE the TREASURES “stored” up IN Heaven…GIVEN when the Lord Returns!!

Basic /Elementary stuff.

A work…John 6:28, 6:29
Endure (IN BELIEF) to the End Matt 24:13
MUST bodily die…1 Cor 15:36
Glorify God…Pss 50:23, Matt 5:16
Treasures in Heaven…Matt 6:20
Reward with the Lord…Rev 22:12
Reward FOR every man According to his Works…Rev 22:13

God Bless you,

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GracePeace]

@mailmandan ….
How is it that people claiming to BE Believers, claiming to BE Christians, claiming to BE Converted Christians….

Have ZERO BASIC understanding of WHAT “A” particular work “IS” and the EXPRESS “GIFT” given FOR that one work….and what work”S” “ARE” and the “REWARDS” given for “THOSE WORK-S” ??

Nope, Ro 2:6-16, 14:23, James 2--and the rest of the entire Bible, actually--show that final justification or condemnation are determined by whether we walk in grace and faith after we are justified by grace through faith in Christ (Ro 5:1).

"The Law of Faith", obedience to which is counted as righteousness, is not "just believe in Jesus", it's "believe in the Name of God's Son, AND love one another [walk in faith--faith works by love]" (Ro 1:5, 3:27, 14:5; 1 Jn 3:23,24), so failure to walk in grace through faith, God's righteousness (Ro 1:17)), after having been justified (Ro 5:1) by being forgiven (Ro 4:6-8), God's righteousness, does affect your justification, or else the guy who doesn't walk by faith wouldn't be condemned (Ro 2:5, 14:23).

 

[Taken]

Then why are you posting to me?
You enjoy wasting your time??

Posting to you is a combination…of me practicing typing and for others benefit.