One proof: those "in Christ" have "no condemnation" (Ro 8:1); but the one who sins is "condemned" (Ro 14:23). "In Him there is no sin."
No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?
- Thread starter GracePeace
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Liberal is your behavior…accusing other’s of what you do.
Do you have a “chart”, checking off your “work-S”, then at what point do you reach “salvation” ?
Actually, I was just mocking your empty grandstanding.
Do you have a "chart", checking off your sins you accomplish, so you can show you're saved without works?
Hi GracePeace
I just got here and who knows how long I'll stay,,,,
but you're right on and those who think they can call themselves Christian and go about stating that they do not need to obey God are deluding themselves...
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
Post 333.....right.
Great post !
I find that many do not distinguish between WORKS OF THE LAW, what the Israelites had to follow in the time of Moses -
which no longer apply to us: We don't take our naughty teenagers to the limit of the village to stone them to death.
Also, to some EVERYTHING is a work ... faith is understood to be a work and baptism can be understood to be a work.
Both Wrong.
And many fail to read all the verses in the NT that refer to doing good works.
There must be at least 20 or more verses on how we are to do good works/deeds.
John 5:28 should be sufficient - but, alas, maybe Jesus didn't mean what He said??!
John 5:28-29 Jesus said:
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
I would argue, contrary to the New Perspectivists, like Dr. N.T. Wright, "works of the Law" includes all the moral requirements (eg, no idols) : "by the works of the Law no flesh shall be justified, for by the Law comes the knowledge of sin", and "I would not have come to know sin except [j]through the Law; for I would not have known about [k]coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT [l]COVET.” Therefore, "do not covet" is included in "works of the Law".
"Works" that do not justify, therefore, corresponding to "a righteousness of my own from [the knowledge of good and evil]", does not describe or encompass "walking in faith" ,which is "God's righteousness from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17, 14:5,23).
So true is it that it is God, and not self, that Paul says "not I but Christ lives", "I was abundant in labors above them all, yet, not I, but the grace with me", and "Christ came and preached to you" (when the minister walked in faith and preached to them, that was Christ).
They do not know Scripture, and, and Peter says, misunderstand him.
They do this because they struggle to comprehend what Paul is saying, so they try to shoehorn everything into "saved by faith not works", and make a mess of everything.
They are CORRECT on one count, though : the service to God is not to be characterized by a fearfulness (Judges 7:2+; Ro 8:15), and they accomplish this by the false teaching that "whoever is born of God obeys God but not for salvation", so (many of them, at least) do affirm works, and do, correctly, say it should not be done with fear. But why resort to the incoherent madness and confusion of their mixed up baseless empty self-inconsistencies when we could just affirm what the Bible states?
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When Paul delivers the Galatians from "slavery" of being "under Law" (Gal 4:21-31) over to "freedom" (Gal 5:1), what does he deliver them to? "Faith in Christ alone"? NO! "Serve one another by faith working through love".
The difference between "works" and "faith" is that one proceeds from the volition of the flesh, and the other is God working faith in us to will and do for His pleasure (those who walk by the spirit fulfill the Law (Ro 8:4) = we please God, because the Law was the things that would have pleased God (when you desire something, there are steps to take, and orders to follow those steps are issued to satisfy that desire), and, now, He works in us to make Him pleased, so we are "under obligation" Ro 8:12,13 to be "fully convinced in our own mind" (Ro 14:5) about what we're doing, because our convictions are God's Law of Faith). "God himself teaches you to love one another".
"Through the Law, I died to the Law, that I might live to God."
The Law points you to yourself to show you your sin (Ro 3).
"You who seek to be justified by the Law are severed from Christ"
Grace and faith is looking away unto Christ.
To turn to the Law is to turn to self and is to be dead to Christ.
To turn to Christ is to die to the Law and self.
To turn to the Law is to turn to self and away from Christ.
To turn to Christ is to turn away from self.
Who is performing the work is determined by who is being beheld.
"A righteousness of my own", "works", is when self is being beheld.
"God's righteousness" is when Christ is being beheld.
Paul is not against righteousness, his issue is with who is performing the righteousness--whether it is true righteousness, "God Is Our Righteousness" (Jer 23:6), "God's righteousness revealed from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17), or a false piety that can not and will never justify, a righteousness of my own, which is "works".
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
no one here says we do not need to obey God. Don;t fall for the trap of believing the lie.
Yes, Sadly, People who think they can obey themselves enough to earn salvation. This is what appears to them
To be clear, I always acknowledge that you all who have been disagreeing with me do affirm obedience.
Observing Your Works it is Fortunate for you it is not BY WORKS you can hope for Salvation.
1 Tim 1:
[9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
I don't want to get drawn into a tangent, but our salvation was typed by the Jews' salvation from Egypt ("Christ our Passover Lamb"), not their entrance into the Promised Land (1 Co 10).
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You affirm a works based self righteous gospel.
which is really not obedience, but self righteousness
What I affirm aside, my point was I did not accuse you all of affirming disobedience.
GP
There were 3 types of Law in the OT:
Civil
Ceremonial
Moral
The civil and ceremonial law (including sacrifices since Jesus was the last one necessary) were abolished.
The Moral Law, which you cite above will never be abolished because God is morality itself and the 10 commandments are forever --- they're written on stone.
Not only will no one be saved by the works OF THE LAW, but also by works/good deeds in general.
An atheist may do more good deeds than a Christian....but his unbelief will bring judgment upon him.
This is what I like to say....let's see if you agree. If I end up staying here, you'll be hearing me say it many times.....:
Faith without works is a dead faith.
Works without faith are dead works.
IOW, you need both to please God.
The problem here is the doctrine of FAITH ALONE.
Faith does not stand alone but will always produce good works/deeds.
Goes back, I guess, to what I said above about faith and works needing each other or each becomes invalid.
Absolutely.
We're here out of love, not fear.
A slave works because he fears....
A friend works because he loves.
AMEN!!
This has always been my point to.
Why mix everything up?
Why not just say YES OBEDIENCE IS NECESSARY.
And that obedience incompasses works/deeds....the fruit of salvation.
I was on another forum where some blatantly stated that they could even blaspheme the Holy Spirit and STILL be saved !!
As you said....some confusion here.
And to say that faith is a work when Paul stated emphatically that it cannot be both...
if salvation is by faith then it cannot be by works, and V V.
So even the NT is not believed.
Well, EG, I remember you from when I used to post here but can't remember your exact position.
I do agree with what you state above....
However your first paragraph is not 100% correct because I've read, with my own eyes, posters stating that they could sin and still be saved. (I mean a life of sin - we all sin).
So this is why I believe we need to be very careful in how we present the word of God to others - by not making obedience too complicated.
We need faith to be saved.
No amount of works/good deeds can save us without faith in God.
After we're saved, we need to obey God.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I have never heard anyone say this. And I just go with the book of John. Whoever is born of God can not live in sin. Whoever lives in sin has never seen God or known God. so its not even a question for a possibility.
Even you said you still sin, So by your definition, unless you say those sins cause you to lose salvation. You claim yourself you can still sin (actually you do sin) and you are still saved.
Yes we do. Legalism is dangerous, It is as dangerous as licentiousness (what many call easy believing) They are botn dangerous, as they focus on self not God. and have no power to save
Amen
No amount of works/good deeds can save you without without faith. It is not of our good deeds (works of righteousness) which we have done, but by Gods mercy he saved us..
When you add works to the salvation equation. You point toward legalism
After we are saved, WE WILL.
I do not like the word need. God changed us, there will be a change, because we are new creatures.
when you use the term NEED, you again, point to self and not God.
You have the word grace in your name, remember what that is, Gods unmerited favor
by grace we have been saved, (a done deal). Through faith. not of works. lest anyone should boast.
Don;t be like the OP here and continually pump your chest of how good you are. Gods standard is perfection. No one has met that standard. thus no one can "obey" themselves to heaven by being good.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I repeat
what you afirm and preach is a self righteous works based gospel
You point to self. and pump your chest. while attacking people who look to God and his grace to save them
stop being the pharisee. and become like the tax collector is my recommendation to you
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
We are saved FOR good works and not by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Also see Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Titus 3:8 - This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
I often hear works-salvationists (particular Roman Catholics) cite John 5:28-29 in an effort to try and prove that man is saved by works and end up confusing 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. In John 5:28-29, *notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.
What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already (because he has not performed enough good works? NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Are believers 'described' as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"
Are unbelievers 'described' as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"
EG, Because YOU have never heard anyone say they could still be sinful and still be saved,,,,does not mean that it doesn't happen.
Point blank question so I can deal with your post better:
Are you a believer in sinless perfection?
Do you note a difference between:
SIN
LIVING IN SIN
??
I said we all sin.
I did not say WE LIVE IN SIN.
I'm asking you about this just above.
Is there a difference?
Compare 1 John 1 and 2 with 1 John 3:9
This is confusing to me. Maybe I'm not understanding you.
EASY BELIEVISM is the opposite of LEGALISM.
I'm sorry, yes, you're saying they're different.
Agreed.
Legalism is wrong and easy beleivism is wrong.
Agreed.
Agreed.
I don't know any Christian that states that we are saved by works.
Good.
EG, too much fear about depending on ourselves.
Paul exhorts us to depend on ourselves but with the help of the Holy Spirit within us.
IF we put everything on the Holy Spirit, the necessary outcome is that when we sin, it's the Holy Spirit that bears all the responsibility because He was not able to stop us from sinning.
Think about it.
God WORKS IN US....God does not STOP US from sinning.
We don't lose our free will when we become born again.
Do you believe in irresistible grace?
No?
Then you must believe that OUR ACTIONS are what counts toward obedience toward God.
Any other belief system removes our free will from the equation.
But your forget the rest of the verse:
Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 1
0For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
God's standard is perfection?
Where does it state this?
Post the verse and then we'll discuss.
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