No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

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Taken

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Really?

Why, then, did Paul warn "Anyone who disregards this [prohibition on immorality] disregards not man but God Who gives you His Spirit"--why did David, after committing adultery, cry, "Do not cast me away from Your Presence, do not take Your Holy Spirit away from me!" if God would never do it?

Makes no sense. Your view is incoherent.

My View is according to Gods Spiritual Understanding…

FYI…making “sense” that you invoke, is CARNAL mindedness…NOT Spiritual.

FYI…
Rom 8:
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

FYI…
God DID NOT, “change” a mans Carnal Mind…”God Changes a mans spirit”!
It is by, through, of a man HAVING Gods Spirit “IN” him, the man HAVING a new spirit…the man is PREPARED to CAUSE HIS Own MIND’S (carnal SENSE, carnal LOGIC, } to Acquiesce to Gods Truth, Gods Understanding, FED that man…Gods Spirit to the mans spirit.

You telling me your carnal minded, sense, logic, regarding Spiritual things, is NOT Spiritual Understanding given you by God…

You telling me what I say makes no sense to you, is you telling me, you rely on your Carnal mind in an attempt to understand Scripture…rather then relying on the Spirit of Gods Understanding to teach your spirit….which if you spirit was not made “quickened”…you won’t receive Gods Spiritual Understanding .

And since you have PROVED your understanding IS Carnal….you have only the recourse to get mad, throw a fit, unleash name calling and accusations and gaslight…such as your posts repeatedly reveal.
 

GracePeace

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My View is according to Gods Spiritual Understanding…

FYI…making “sense” that you invoke, is CARNAL mindedness…NOT Spiritual.

FYI…
Rom 8:
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

FYI…
God DID NOT, “change” a mans Carnal Mind…”God Changes a mans spirit”!
It is by, through, of a man HAVING Gods Spirit “IN” him, the man HAVING a new spirit…the man is PREPARED to CAUSE HIS Own MIND’S (carnal SENSE, carnal LOGIC, } to Acquiesce to Gods Truth, Gods Understanding, FED that man…Gods Spirit to the mans spirit.

You telling me your carnal minded, sense, logic, regarding Spiritual things, is NOT Spiritual Understanding given you by God…

You telling me what I say makes no sense to you, is you telling me, you rely on your Carnal mind in an attempt to understand Scripture…rather then relying on the Spirit of Gods Understanding to teach your spirit….which if you spirit was not made “quickened”…you won’t receive Gods Spiritual Understanding .

And since you have PROVED your understanding IS Carnal….you have only the recourse to get mad, throw a fit, unleash name calling and accusations and gaslight…such as your posts repeatedly reveal.
My view is spiritual, yours is carnal.
 

Taken

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He cried for God not to take His Spirit away--and, yes, all sin is idolatry ("no covetous man who is an idolater"), hence 1 Jn 2:28, 5:21.

WITH…IN. You Still don’t get it.

Oh God, Oh God, please stay WITH me….please don’t leave me….

Didn’t you Learn…THE NEW BETTER TESTAMENT…JESUS INTRODUCED?

Who in the OT had what was NOT OFFERED TO men UNTIL Jesus’ DAY…”to Have the Spirit of God”…….”IN” them?
 
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CadyandZoe

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This has already been addressed
I know. I addressed it. :)
--identifying someone's ancestral lineage and describing one's manner of living ("walk after the flesh", and contrasting it against "walk after the spirit") are not the same goals, so comparing the phrases is to compare apples and oranges.
The two concepts are related because, as we will see below, who we are often dictates what we do. For instance, many people grow up in a religious family. At some point in life, they either embrace their family religion or reject it. Those who reject Judaism and become Christians, for example, take on a new identity. They were Jewish; they are now Christian. Those who grew up Muslim and subsequently converted to Christ, take on a new identity. They were Muslim, but they are now Christian.

In Paul's wording, he uses the phrase "kata sarka" to indicate who we were before our conversion experience. A person may have been born Jewish, and until conversion, they walk according to Judaism because that is how their parents taught them. But once they are sanctified by the Spirit and have the Spirit of Christ, they no longer walk according to Judaism, they walk according to the indwelling Spirit.

While it may be true that Jews oughtn't trust in their heritage as a basis for being in right standing with God, it does mean that "walking after the flesh" doesn't refer to "living sinfully".
We understand the meaning of the phrase "walk according to the flesh" from the immediate context. What does Paul mean HERE?

The following verse alerts the reader that Paul wants to discuss the who and the what of a person in Christ rather than their behavior.

Romans 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Paul helps his readers get to the main issue in verse 5, where he talks about the quiddity of two groups: 1) those who ARE according to the flesh, and those who ARE according to the Spirit. He compares and contrasts the two groups. Granted, there are deeds of the flesh and works of the body, all of which indicate behaviors motivated by evil intent as @Ritajanice pointed out earlier. But here, in this context, Paul is focused on identity, and how we live in the light of that identity.


the one in Christ, i.e., what he is. What are they? They are according to the flesh. What do they do? They set their minds on the things of the flesh.

As @Ritajanice pointed out, Paul lists some examples of the deeds of the flesh in Galatians 5. A cursory glance at the list will show that Paul has listed things some people DO. But here in Romans 8, Paul speaks about who we ARE, and what we do in light of that.

Colossians 3:5 uses similar language to refer to sins, so, nope. No cigar.
Colossians 3:5 exists in a larger context where Paul is making a similar point -- what we do should reflect who we are. He argues from the idea that we are "new" men (a different kind of human being.) We give no value to being physically circumcised, whether we are men or women, slave or free, rich or poor. But Christ is all.

No, actually, "according to the flesh" means "physically descended from", but "walking after the flesh" is a way of describing a lifestyle of indulging in the sinful desires of the flesh, and we know this because its opposite is "mortifying the deeds of the flesh", as also Colossians 3:5 says.
But Paul doesn't say "walking after the flesh." The principle he describes in Romans 8 is living according to identity. Who we are should dictate what we do. In Colossians we are "the new man" so we ought to walk as new men (or women). In Romans 8, we are "according to the Spirit" so we ought to leave our childhood behind and walk in light of what the Spirit is teaching us.

The Jewish Christians trusted in their Jewishness, and Paul was helping them trust in grace by destroying that.
I don't know what you mean by "Christian."
Paul's point wasn't about "inner" and "outer" man, his point was correcting the Jewish Christians' trust in their Jewishness, which you already conceded was boasting, which would need humbling.
Where are you reading this? In Romans 2, Paul explicitly says that a true Jew is one inwardly. I don't know how you can miss this.
Right, so even granting your flawed premise, "walking after the flesh" does refer to sinning, as I said.
How does that follow?
"Principles of individual action" don't result in sins when they are broken--this one does result in sin and condemnation when it's broken, so it is actually nothing other than "the law of faith".
Who said anything about breaking a rule or a commandment? Perhaps you didn't know that the word "sin" has a wide range of meanings. Those who act against their own conscience aren't breaking divine Law, are they? You aren't suggesting that "whatever I think" is divine law are you?
 

CadyandZoe

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You're missing the point: you're admitting that a Christian can be double-minded, can do things with which they disagree, can have a yes and a no--the very thing you tried denying could occur when a Christian ate without full faith in Ro 14:23.
You and I are using the term "Christian" to mean different things, I think.
 

quietthinker

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am I wrong in what I said?

And if I do not get it. Explain it to me
'earning' is a mindset, it is part of the fallen human condition. Somewhere deep in us is this idea that we are not loved and need to do something to be loved. It drives the economies of nations.
The various 'fancy' theologies that abound will tell you 'what you have to do to be saved' .....even while they say you are not saved by works (a contradiction which confuses)

On the contrary, God has revealed the nature of his reality (love) in Jesus and learning of it and immersing ourselves in this knowledge generates trust.
Trust is the stuff of meaningful relationship. Trust is the purpose of the Gospel.
 

mailmandan

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WITH…IN. You Still don’t get it.

Oh God, Oh God, please stay WITH me….please don’t leave me….

Didn’t you Learn…THE NEW BETTER TESTAMENT…JESUS INTRODUCED?

Who in the OT had what was NOT OFFERED TO men UNTIL Jesus’ DAY…”to Have the Spirit of God”…….”IN” them?
Yes, there is a difference between the permanent indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament and the indwelling in the Old Testament which was selective and temporary. The Holy Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Holy Spirit “coming upon” these various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors.

The Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell them/seal them, but instead, came upon these individuals for specific tasks. So, while in the New Testament the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent (Ephesians 1:13) the Holy Spirit came upon certain individuals in the Old Testament for a specific task and not to permanently seal them in Christ.
 
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GracePeace

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I know. I addressed it. :)

The two concepts are related because, as we will see below, who we are often dictates what we do. For instance, many people grow up in a religious family. At some point in life, they either embrace their family religion or reject it. Those who reject Judaism and become Christians, for example, take on a new identity. They were Jewish; they are now Christian. Those who grew up Muslim and subsequently converted to Christ, take on a new identity. They were Muslim, but they are now Christian.

In Paul's wording, he uses the phrase "kata sarka" to indicate who we were before our conversion experience. A person may have been born Jewish, and until conversion, they walk according to Judaism because that is how their parents taught them. But once they are sanctified by the Spirit and have the Spirit of Christ, they no longer walk according to Judaism, they walk according to the indwelling Spirit.
Still, they're told they'll live IF and die IF, just as Romans 6, so your view is not sensical.
We understand the meaning of the phrase "walk according to the flesh" from the immediate context. What does Paul mean HERE?

The following verse alerts the reader that Paul wants to discuss the who and the what of a person in Christ rather than their behavior.

Romans 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Paul helps his readers get to the main issue in verse 5, where he talks about the quiddity of two groups: 1) those who ARE according to the flesh, and those who ARE according to the Spirit. He compares and contrasts the two groups. Granted, there are deeds of the flesh and works of the body, all of which indicate behaviors motivated by evil intent as @Ritajanice pointed out earlier. But here, in this context, Paul is focused on identity, and how we live in the light of that identity.
That's been debunked.
the one in Christ, i.e., what he is. What are they? They are according to the flesh. What do they do? They set their minds on the things of the flesh.
No, Paul doesn't say that, as explained.
As @Ritajanice pointed out, Paul lists some examples of the deeds of the flesh in Galatians 5. A cursory glance at the list will show that Paul has listed things some people DO. But here in Romans 8, Paul speaks about who we ARE, and what we do in light of that.


Colossians 3:5 exists in a larger context where Paul is making a similar point -- what we do should reflect who we are. He argues from the idea that we are "new" men (a different kind of human being.) We give no value to being physically circumcised, whether we are men or women, slave or free, rich or poor. But Christ is all.
He says to mortify... just as in Ro 8:12,13, debunking your view that it's about identity.
But Paul doesn't say "walking after the flesh."
He does.
The principle he describes in Romans 8 is living according to identity. Who we are should dictate what we do. In Colossians we are "the new man" so we ought to walk as new men (or women). In Romans 8, we are "according to the Spirit" so we ought to leave our childhood behind and walk in light of what the Spirit is teaching us.
You're addressing the METHOD of mortifying the deeds of the flesh, you're not addressing the fact that deeds of the flesh refers to sin, as I stated, and that there're contingencies Paul presents. It's really simple.
I don't know what you mean by "Christian."

Where are you reading this? In Romans 2, Paul explicitly says that a true Jew is one inwardly. I don't know how you can miss this.
Read the chapter.
How does that follow?
They're boasting in the flesh. Boasting is a sin. This has been explained many times.
Who said anything about breaking a rule or a commandment? Perhaps you didn't know that the word "sin" has a wide range of meanings. Those who act against their own conscience aren't breaking divine Law, are they? You aren't suggesting that "whatever I think" is divine law are you?
Nope, the Law of Faith regards convictions.
 

GracePeace

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As I wondered earlier. I think we disagree on what a "Christian" is. I highlighted the essential aspect, which sets one "Christian" apart from another "Christian." Not everyone who names the name of Christ has Christ in them.
Not sure how that's relevant.
 

Eternally Grateful

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'earning' is a mindset, it is part of the fallen human condition. Somewhere deep in us is this idea that we are not loved and need to do something to be loved. It drives the economies of nations.
The various 'fancy' theologies that abound will tell you 'what you have to do to be saved' .....even while they say you are not saved by works (a contradiction which confuses)

On the contrary, God has revealed the nature of his reality (love) in Jesus and learning of it and immersing ourselves in this knowledge generates trust.
Trust is the stuff of meaningful relationship. Trust is the purpose of the Gospel.
It sounds like we are on the same page.
 
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Taken

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Please keep chatter to a minimum and comment on topic.

No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

No condemnation For Those IN Christ…
True.

Sinning Believers Are Condemned?
False.

“Sinning Believer”….oxymoron

“Doubter” is not a believer.

Rom 14:23 IS a Warning to Doubters.
Rom 14:23 IS a Revealed Means to Overcome their Doubts, their Sin, their path to damnation..

“Doubter” WHO, fails to (Hear, Eat, Consume) the WORD of God, Will Continue Doubting, Continue Being Against God…
And shall end up being Damned.

Rom 14:
[23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
 

Ritajanice

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WITH…IN. You Still don’t get it.

Oh God, Oh God, please stay WITH me….please don’t leave me….

Didn’t you Learn…THE NEW BETTER TESTAMENT…JESUS INTRODUCED?

Who in the OT had what was NOT OFFERED TO men UNTIL Jesus’ DAY…”to Have the Spirit of God”…….”IN” them?
He doesn’t understand the “ spirit birth “ he’s still in his natural understanding can’t you see that?
 
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Taken

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He doesn’t understand the “ spirit birth “ he’s still in his natural understanding can’t you see that?

Of course.

God describes that as stubborn and stiffed-necked.
Jesus elaborated to that being ever hearing but failing to come to the understanding.

Then arises the Conundrum…

Rather than disagreeing and having a discussion of different point of views and WHY…

The gaslighting, negative accusations, name-calling trickles in… when the gaslighter has not the where-with-all…to state the WHY and valid application of his own point of view.

So far…his WHY, is an others’ view “doesn’t make sense to him”…

Views based ON Spiritual Understanding…
IS NOT SUPPOSED TO, CAN NOT, MAKE SENSE TO A CARNAL MINDED UNDERSTANDING!

Remaining on the merry-go-round, has ceased to benefit him, but rather may be a benefit to others who are NOT stiff-necked.

As Jesus spoke things to one, for the benefit of others standing by, to hear…

John 11:
[42] And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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