No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

[Eternally Grateful]

EG, Because YOU have never heard anyone say they could still be sinful and still be saved,,,,does not mean that it doesn't happen.

It does not mean it does either. and again I point you to the rest of my post.

Point blank question so I can deal with your post better:

Are you a believer in sinless perfection?

No

Do you note a difference between:
SIN
LIVING IN SIN
??

Yes. As does John

A child of God is not perfect. He will chose the flesh over the spirit.

But he can not live in sin. Its impossible.

I said we all sin.
I did not say WE LIVE IN SIN.
I'm asking you about this just above.
Is there a difference?

Compare 1 John 1 and 2 with 1 John 3:9

I am not sure what your asking.

This is confusing to me. Maybe I'm not understanding you.
EASY BELIEVISM is the opposite of LEGALISM.

Actually they both stem from pride. so in essence they both are rooted in the same self focused belief.

1. Licentiousness or easy believism states " can live however I want, I said a prayer and am saved forever"
the other says "I must try to help save myself. that it can not be so easy as trusting in God."

Both are rooted in I statements, and not in Christ, and both will reject salvation by grace alone through faith alone

I'm sorry, yes, you're saying they're different.
Agreed.

Legalism is wrong and easy beleivism is wrong.
Agreed.


Agreed.



I don't know any Christian that states that we are saved by works.

I know many, In fact @GracePeace does. as do many others in this very chatroom

Good.



EG, too much fear about depending on ourselves.
Paul exhorts us to depend on ourselves but with the help of the Holy Spirit within us.

If your depending on self for salvation, your in trouble

IF we put everything on the Holy Spirit, the necessary outcome is that when we sin, it's the Holy Spirit that bears all the responsibility because He was not able to stop us from sinning.

This does not make sense. can you explain further

Think about it.

God WORKS IN US....God does not STOP US from sinning.

True

We don't lose our free will when we become born again.
Do you believe in irresistible grace?

No. I reject Calvinistic theology

No?
Then you must believe that OUR ACTIONS are what counts toward obedience toward God.
Any other belief system removes our free will from the equation.

My point is why do we work.. what is the motivation.

do you believe you can do good. and in that good deed. sin in doing that deed?

But your forget the rest of the verse:

Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 1
0For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Thats because I am talking about HOW we were saved.

not what happens AFTER we are saved. so verse 10 does not relate to my comments

God's standard is perfection?
Where does it state this?

Ever heard of the law?

If we sin even once, (even if we just stumble we are guilty of all. Moses even said, cursed is the one who does not obey every word. literally every jot and tittle.

Post the verse and then we'll discuss.

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

This is a good start

 

[GodsGrace]

We are saved FOR good works and not by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Also see Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Titus 3:8 - This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

I often hear works-salvationists (particular Roman Catholics) cite John 5:28-29 in an effort to try and prove that man is saved by works and end up confusing 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. In John 5:28-29, *notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

Exactly!
Those who have done good come forth unto righteousness.
Those who have done evil unto judgment.
I don't see any mention of believers or non-believers or saved or unsaved.

I see good deeds being spoken of and evil deeds.

Do we think Jesus didn't mean what He said?

Let's look at John 5:28-29 again:

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good [deeds] to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil [deeds] to a resurrection of judgment.

All it states is that THOSE WHO DID GOOD DEEDS will come forth to a resurrection of LIFE.
THOSE WHO COMMITTED EVIL DEEDS to a resurrection of judgment.

Now, if it gives you comfort to think that Catholics state this, for whatever reason you may think, the point is that it's in the NT, it's the words of JESUS and you can't run away from them blaming some denomination that it's not properly understood.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already (because he has not performed enough good works? NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mailman, we've been over this many times and you'll find that I'm not one to go on with this forever. The OP has a lot more patience than I ever will....

So, again
What does BELIEVE mean in the original Greek?
You do know that it involves obedience, right?

Are believers 'described' as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"
Are unbelievers 'described' as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

Again, you should jump down to verse 20:

John 3:20-21
19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

The above, again, is speaking about DEEDS.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly!
Those who have done good come forth unto righteousness.
Those who have done evil unto judgment.

But who has done good, vs who has done evil

have we all not done evil?

 

[Taken]

I don't want to get drawn into a tangent, but our salvation was typed by the Jews' salvation from Egypt ("Christ our Passover Lamb"), not their entrance into the Promised Land (1 Co 10).

WHY in your own words bring up a POINT,
(Ie “entrance into the Promised Land”)
I never mentioned
then PRETEND What I did NOT SAY…was me supposedly meaning “that was Israel’s Salvation”…

You have EVERY RIGHT to make up crap and believe the crap you make up…

You EVEN have the RIGHT to make up crap and FALSELY ACCUSE your crap is what an other says and believes.

Same AS I have EVERY RIGHT to RECOGNIZE a FALSE ACCUSER, a GASLIGHTER, a LIAR….and full well KNOW WHOM such person IS SERVING…and the CONSEQUENCES thereof.

Word to the Ignorant who LACKS WISDOM…
SPEAKING “FOR” others what “THEY DID NOT SAY”… is the oldest form of DECEIT out of the mouths of fools.

 

[Taken]

God's standard is perfection?
Where does it state this?

Yes Gods STANDARD “IS” PERFECTION!

Gen 17:
[1] And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Deut.18
[13] [Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Heb 10
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Post the verse and then we'll discuss.

Highly doubt you are equipped to discuss.

 

[GracePeace]

I repeat

what you afirm and preach is a self righteous works based gospel

You point to self. and pump your chest. while attacking people who look to God and his grace to save them

stop being the pharisee. and become like the tax collector is my recommendation to you

You missed the point... but that's what you do best.

 

[GracePeace]

The OP has a lot more patience than I ever will....

Actually, the more they pressure me, the more facets of the truth I learn, so, I'm also getting something out of it, so there's that motivation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You missed the point... but that's what you do best.

You failed once again to prove me wrong

But then again, Thats what you do best.

 

[GracePeace]

WHY in your own words bring up a POINT,
(Ie “entrance into the Promised Land”)
I never mentioned
then PRETEND What I did NOT SAY…was me supposedly meaning “that was Israel’s Salvation”…

You have EVERY RIGHT to make up crap and believe the crap you make up…

You EVEN have the RIGHT to make up crap and FALSELY ACCUSE your crap is what an other says and believes.

Same AS I have EVERY RIGHT to RECOGNIZE a FALSE ACCUSER, a GASLIGHTER, a LIAR….and full well KNOW WHOM such person IS SERVING…and the CONSEQUENCES thereof.

Word to the Ignorant who LACKS WISDOM…
SPEAKING “FOR” others what “THEY DID NOT SAY”… is the oldest form of DECEIT out of the mouths of fools.

Not even going to finish reading this emotional mess.

Your brain doesn't work--most peoples' don't. However, at least others give me Scriptural nonsensial arguments, so there's something to respond to. Your replies are just empty emotional personal grievances. Lol

 

[GracePeace]

You failed once again to prove me wrong

But then again, Thats what you do best.

Lol OK thanks

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Lol OK thanks

anytime

when your ready to repent. Let God know. he will help you

 

[Taken]

Not even going to finish reading this emotional mess.

Glad you recognized my passionate emotion.

Not surprised you think it a mess.
Anyone discussing Spiritual Things, with a Carnal Minded expectation of UNDERSTANDING are out of their league, and will only be able to Retort, except with their limiting Carnal mindedness.

Your brain doesn't work--most peoples' don't. However, at least others give me Scriptural nonsensial arguments, so there's something to respond to. Your replies are just empty emotional personal grievances. Lol

Can’t understand for you, but surely know you depend on your MIND to arrive at SPIRITUAL understanding, which IS A FAIL!

God IS SPIRIT…the Carnal MIND is AGAINST GOD…(Rom 8:7) and expressly why I said you were suspect to not be ABLE to engage in a Spiritual Conversation.
Your verification to that effect is helpful.

God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GracePeace]

Glad you recognized my passionate emotion.

Not surprised you think it a mess.
Anyone discussing Spiritual Things, with a Carnal Minded expectation of UNDERSTANDING are out of their league, and will only be able to Retort, except with their limiting Carnal mindedness.



Can’t understand for you, but surely know you depend on your MIND to arrive at SPIRITUAL understanding, which IS A FAIL!

God IS SPIRIT…the Carnal MIND is AGAINST GOD…(Rom 8:7) and expressly why I said you were suspect to not be ABLE to engage in a Spiritual Conversation.
Your verification to that effect is helpful.

God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

Mindless, meaningless, empty emotion. No substance, never on topic. Meaningless worthless responses.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Mindless, meaningless, empty emotion. No substance, never on topic. Meaningless worthless responses.

You talking about yourself again?

 

[GracePeace]

You talking about yourself again?

Misunderstanding literally everything again?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Misunderstanding literally everything again?

You have? I am used to that. You have done it since I first met you

 

[GracePeace]

If we could bring it back to topic that would be nice.

 

[Taken]

Mindless, meaningless, empty emotion. No substance, never on topic. Meaningless worthless responses.

Stiff-necked, stubborn, false accuser…
Expected. thus not alarmed.

Too bad you find Gods Blessing extended unto you….”meaningless”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GracePeace]

Waiting to return to topic everybody.

 

[mailmandan]

Exactly!
Those who have done good come forth unto righteousness.
Those who have done evil unto judgment.
I don't see any mention of believers or non-believers or saved or unsaved.

I see good deeds being spoken of and evil deeds.

Do we think Jesus didn't mean what He said?

Let's look at John 5:28-29 again:

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good [deeds] to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil [deeds] to a resurrection of judgment.

All it states is that THOSE WHO DID GOOD DEEDS will come forth to a resurrection of LIFE.
THOSE WHO COMMITTED EVIL DEEDS to a resurrection of judgment.

Now, if it gives you comfort to think that Catholics state this, for whatever reason you may think, the point is that it's in the NT, it's the words of JESUS and you can't run away from them blaming some denomination that it's not properly understood.

Mailman, we've been over this many times and you'll find that I'm not one to go on with this forever. The OP has a lot more patience than I ever will....

So, again
What does BELIEVE mean in the original Greek?
You do know that it involves obedience, right?

Again, you should jump down to verse 20:

John 3:20-21
19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

The above, again, is speaking about DEEDS

So, you don't understand the descriptive contrast between believers and unbelievrs in John 5:28-29? You also try to "shoehorn" obedience/works "into" believes. The end result is salvation by works.

John 3:19 - And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. *DESCRIPTIVE of unbelievers. In CONTRAST with verse 21, which is
*DESCRIPTIVE of believers.

Evil is reflected in fleeing from the light and evil deeds are done in darkness, while those who practice the truth come to the Light and good deeds are wrought in God.