No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

[GracePeace]

Okay, belief is a command. But not all beliefs are commanded. Romans 14:23 is not talking about commanded beliefs. God doesn't command anyone to believe that eating meat is okay.

Yes, actually, it is a binding command.
If not, he could not have sinned and been condemned.
"The Law of faith" is not merely "believe in Christ".
"The Law of faith" is a singular two-staged command.
In 1 Jn 3, he says "if we keep God's commands" we have confidence.
Then he shifts to "This is God's command".
"Believe in the Name of God's Son, and love one another."
That is a singular command, so that breaking its latter part is breaking its former.
This is why sin is also called "denying Christ".
It's all grace and faith--faith in Christ, and then walking in faith.
("Each man has his gift"--his manner of walking is grace.)
"Faith works by love."
Walking in faith is walking in love; love fulfills the whole Law.
Those who walk after the spirit, walk in faith, fulfill the Law.
The issue isn't eating meat, the issue is faith.
The individual has a conviction worked in him by God.
"I will write My Law on their hearts and minds."
This is how Gentile believers are "doers of the Law" without the Law (Ro 2).
Walking in that conviction is loving God and others.
Failing to walk in that conviction is not loving God and others.

This is why it says "their thoughts accusing or excusing them" at the judgment (Ro 2).

 

[mailmandan]

So, obedience is a work?

Obedience which "follows" saving faith in Christ and is produced "out of" faith is works.

So, believers in Jesus are not supposed to be obedient?

I never said that and seeking salvation based on works is not obedience. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9: Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

What does GOOD DEEDS ARE WROUGHT IN GOD mean to you?

Good deeds are good works which are wrought in God, in His presence and through His assistance.

Here is what Jesus said about good deeds and evil deeds:
Matthew 7:21
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven

There is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. - PRESCRIPTIVE

AND

Doing God's will after we have been saved: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. - DESCRIPTIVE

Matthew 7:24
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock, and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand, and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ - John 17:3) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. (descriptive of believers) *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus. (descriptive of unbelievers)

Matthew 12:48-50
50"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

If we have not done His prescriptive will then we will not accomplish His descriptive will either.

Now, do the above sound descriptive to you or prescriptive?

Both, depending on His will for us before or after salvation.

I do believe that Jesus came to us to teach us how to get to heaven.
In my understanding that would be PRESCRIPTIVE.

Jesus made it clear how to get to heaven. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)

 

[GodsGrace]

@CadyandZoe Tangentially, the only part that gets me, the bridge I'm missing, that I haven't crossed, is that the manner of living, walking by faith, being described is described as "giving thanks" (Ro 14:6), whereas I have the habit of focusing more on averting punishment, which is a serious error, because the lazy servant, who thinks that way, goes to hell (Mt 25).

As mentioned, I grew up with a Muslim terrorist step father who was extremely severe with us, so maybe that's why I miss certain things, certain things of substance.

Interesting post GP.
I just happened to see it.

Averting punishment is not a bad reason to obey.
But God loves us with a never-ending love,,,an agape love which is a Godly love that we most certainly cannot even understand - although we are told to agape love everyone.

The best reason to obey God is because we love Him and do not want to cause Him anymore pain in seeing how sinful humanity is.
Jesus cried over Jerusalem because they would not come to Him. Luke 19:41

Also, we should always remember that we love because God first loved us. 1 John 4:19

If we love God, our sins will be held to a minimum.
This is a path you're on, as I much as I can tell, and I think you're way ahead of many on these forums.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think your missing the point
If I am working to earn, maintian or prevent myself from losing salvation. It is called legalism. I am working for a reward,. or as Paul said, A wage, and I can boast of those works ( I saved myself or am saving myself by the works)

Apparently, there's something about the NT which you do not understand.
Your reply is very long....will do my best.

I am nt talking about works which proceed out of or are a result of my salvation. Those are totally different works.

If your doing it to be saved. Your boasting of saving yourse.f

Again. the context of why we do it is my point

Your right. Faith always produces works.

By my salvation is by Gods grace alone, given only through my faith alone.. Not of works lest we should boast.

So if faith produces works/deeds.....

and THERE ARE NO WORKS/DEEDS....
is that person truly saved?

Do you understand that I'm BEYOND the salvation point, and so was Paul, and other writers, when he was teaching Christians HOW TO LIVE?

What do you suppose the following verses mean?

Ephessians 2:10
FOR WE ARE his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,

Please note: FOR WE ARE .....means that Paul is speaking to saved persons.


James 2:4-17
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Did James not know what he meant?


Hebrews 13:16
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.


DO NOT NEGLECT TO DO GOOD.....

Need more?
I've got plenty.

The NT is chock full of exhortations to DO GOOD WORKS.
It states this to BELIEVERS.

Now, if you want to deny what the NT states, that is your prerogative.
But also remember what James says here:

James 3:1
1Let not many [of you] become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

For too many years now you've been teaching this corrupted version of the NT teachings on works.

Please post 2 verses, or even one, that state that WE ARE TO DO NOTHING after salvation because works are NOT NECESSARY and we will be saved anyway.

Anything else you state is YOUR OPINION.
Your OPINION is not important to Christianity.

Thanks.

Yes and who was James talking to? The licentious person who CLAIMED they had faith, but had no works

THIS is who James was speaking to:

2Consider it all joy, my brethren, James 1:2

James was speaking to new converts,,,,HIS BRETHREN.
He was teaching them HOW TO LIVE A CHRISTIANLY LIFE.

James does not contradict paul. fighting the legalist who claimed we are saved by faith plus works.

Where is the word LEGALIST in the NT?

This is your problem, and that of others on the thread:

You describe GOOD WORKS, which are demanded of Christians, as being legalistic.

Which means that Paul, Peter, James, John, Matthew etc. just did not know what they were talking about.

That's what you're basically saying.

That we should listen TO YOU, instead of TO THEM.

Even paul said we are saved by grace through faith, not of works (faith alone) and that it is not of works of righteousness which we have done (faith alone) but by his mercy he saved us.

Paul said nothing else?
Your stuck in Ephesians 2:8......get on with it,
get sanctified.

2 Timothy 2:21
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

But sanctification is a work of God even that is not your work

Really?
Read 2 Timothy 2:21 again.

And the following:

​

1 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Maybe you could ask yourself WHAT IS THE TRUTH?


1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

How are YOU abstaining from sexual morality?
Is it something you're doing or is the Holy Spirit forcing you?

Everything else is the same:
The Holy Spirit will never FORCE you to obey God,,,
He will only HELP you ..... The Holy Spirit is a HELPER....not an enforcer of God's law.
Unless you could demonstrate that He is by a verse or 2.

As hebrews said, By one sacrifice, he has perfected forever (justified) those who are being sanctified.

Sanctification will not get you to heaven. Only justification can do that, Sanctification is a result of justification and an ongoing growth in christ.

This statement is so convoluted I can't even reply to it.
Sanctification, what is required to get into heaven....
cannot get you into heaven....
only justification can....
but sanctification is a result of justificcation...??!!

Read again EG and write a coherent idea.

Then no one will inherit the kingdom of God. for all have sinned, there are non righteous no not one

Not replying to nonsense.

wIthough the righteousness of God given to us. we are lost with no hope. why would you trust in self. Your already guilty as am I..

Not reply to nonsense.


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[GodsGrace]

@Eternally Grateful

page 2

Which is anyone who uses works and how good they are as a mean to get to heaven.. They are working for a wage, and in doing so. reject the gift of God which saves everyone.

I think you need to read my verses above and preferably the entire New Testament.

Could you post some verses that state that we are NOT to do good works because it would be self-righteous of us?
Thanks.

Practicing righteousness does not make you righteous. It just means instead of practicing sin (as the unsaved do) you practice doing the things of God.

What does practicing righteousness make you?
It does not make you righteous?

You should get your thoughts together before writing them down.

Amen, And in the people who jesus spoke to. According to the law No one reached that state. he was making a point, You think these righteous religious people are good. Well they are not good enough,. so how can you ever think of being good enough

Did I say I was good enough?
Please don't put words into my mouth since I will not be spending time here correcting what you THINK I said.

he was pointing them to grace. and away from thinking they were good enough

I don't know any Christian that thinks he's "good enough".
You have an incorrect concept of what God expects from you.

But we can not go 180 degrees out.. Thats like rejecting licentiousness and turning to legalism. or in the case of many jews. rejecting legalism, and going to licentiousness.

Necessary to keep us saved?

If they were. I could save myself by my works.. Thats impossible. my works can no more keep me saved then they could make me saved

Again, read the above verses that I stated and explain how they're wrong.
They come straight out of the NT.

You stated that sanctification is a life-long process.
HOW are we sanctified?

It's your WORKS that Keep you sanctified.
If not, then what is?

Sanctification is not continued salvation, Thats legalism, and was held by the jews and was fought by Paul in most of his ministry

Salvation is justification (declared innocent of all crimes, or declared righteous) and also positional sanctification, or our position in Christ.

Well, I don't think you're right.
So that's MY OPINION.
Are YOU interested in MY OPINION?
No.

Neither am I in yours.

Post scripture or don't bother replying to my posts.

there is also conditional sanctification, or christian growth. Salvation is not dependent on conditional sanctification,

true, and we produce fruit. But we do not keep ourself saved

Yes, But not for Justification (salvation)

we need to seperate the true

I am perfected forever (saved) i am being sanctified as I grow in christ

Again,
HOW do you grow in Christ?

A child of God WILL do good works. The word must take it from your vocabulary, there is no must about it, THEY WILL.

MUST. The word MUST.
When God states somethnig, it's a MUST.

Sorry, but the word is not being deleted out of my vocabulary.

WE MUST OBEY GOD.

Now not everyone will doi the same amount of works, but those works will be tried by fire.. to reveal what kind of work it is and it will be rewarded.

But they will never save us, or keep us saved.. That is legalism.

You don't understand 1 Corinthians 3:4-15 either.
Incredible.
But you insist on teaching that works mean nothing.
Or, at least, that sure is what it sounds like.
Anything to get around them.

I have no problem, But I think you have a problem understanding what is written.

No. But if I was a legalist. like many here (and it seems yourself) you would be under law

Your under the law. or your under grace. there is not a third option.

Here's the 3rd option:
You're saved by grace.
Jesus did HIS part.
Now YOU do yours.

Jesus said to pick up your cross daily and follow Him.
PICK UP YOUR CROSS.
What is your cross?

Your either saved forever because you recieved Gods gift in faith. or your trying to save yourself. which means you put yourself under law.. Because you in fact reject grace

I am, so are you. will you come under grace. and enter the rest God came to give?

This whole notion of saving yourself is as boring as watching the grass grow.
Maybe we, as Christians, could stop saying nonsense?
I don't know anybody that believes they can save themselves.

You don't understand the New Covenant either.
WHERE in the NC does it state that works are not necessary/not desirable/not demanded by God?

 

[GodsGrace]

Posting to you is a combination…of me practicing typing and for others benefit.

Practicing typing.....good.

For the benefit to others.....wish you wouldn't since you have nothing of substance to say.

 

[GodsGrace]

Obedience which "follows" saving faith in Christ and is produced "out of" faith is works.

So obedience is a work.


OK


And of what faith are you?


Not Christian that's for sure.

I never said that and seeking salvation based on works is not obedience. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9: Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Salvation is not achieved by works.


So who's post are you reading?

Good deeds are good works which are wrought in God, in His presence and through His assistance.

There is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. - PRESCRIPTIVE

How about doing God's will in order to REMAIN saved?


Here is what Paul states:





1 Corinthians 6:9


Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,





John 3:36


Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.





Luke 13:6-9 Jesus said:


6And He [began] telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.


7"And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'


8"And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, [fine]; but if not, cut it down.'"





JESUS said that if a tree bears no fruit, it will be cut down.


You can also find this in


John 15:5-6


ide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither [can] you unless you abide in Me. 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.





I tend to pay attention to what JESUS teaches.


to be continued....

 

[GodsGrace]

Obedience which "follows" saving faith in Christ and is produced "out of" faith is works.

I never said that and seeking salvation based on works is not obedience. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9: Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Good deeds are good works which are wrought in God, in His presence and through His assistance.

There is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. - PRESCRIPTIVE

AND

Doing God's will after we have been saved: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. - DESCRIPTIVE

As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock, and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand, and it collapses.

What do you mean AS SOME WOULD SUPPOSE?





Here how Matthew 7:24-27 starts....maybe you missed it:





24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25"And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and [yet] it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.


26"Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.


27"The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-- and great was its fall."





Listen to what Jesus said....not what you THINK He said:





"EVERYONE WHO HEARS THESE WORDS OF MINE AND ACTS ON THEM


IS COMPARED TO A WISE MAN"





"EVERYONE WHO HEARS THESE WORDS OF MINE


AND DOES NOT ACT ON THEM


IS A FOOLISH MAN"





You'll notice that there are action verbs in Jesus' teaching....


HEAR WORDS


ACT ON THEM





HEARS WORDS


DOES NOT ACT ON THEM





As I stated previously,


I tend to LISTEN WHEN JESUS SPEAKS.



to be contd.

 

[GodsGrace]

As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock, and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand, and it collapses.

Cute.





And how do you come to all this?


I suppose you know about eisegesis because you practice it very well.





Jesus PLAINLY STATES why those in Matthew 7:22-23 will not get into heaven.


There is no talk there about believers....


HE plainly said:





Matthew 7:19-20 Jesus said:


19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.





Matthew 7:21


21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father





Matthew 7:23


23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’








You can call is descriptive, prescriptive or call it whatever makes you happy Mailman,


But above are verses straight out of the NT which Jesus stated Himself...





You can take it or leave it.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ - John 17:3) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. (descriptive of believers) *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus. (descriptive of unbelievers)

You'll have to take the verses, VERSE BY VERSE and show me where it says the above.


You don't bring your own ideas to scripture MM,


you TAKE ideas FROM scripture.





I don't see any words such as believers or non believers in these verses,


I don't see anywhere that states some words are being twisted by the foolish man...


I read that HE DOES NOT OBEY THEM. He does NOT DO what Jesus teaches.





You can prove me wrong if you'd like to try.


VERSE BY VERSE please, with the proper explanation.


to be contd

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus made it clear how to get to heaven. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)

You could post some and we'll go through them.


A couple at a time please.


Carpet bombing is rather crude.





ITMT perhaps you could discover what the word BELIEVE means in the original Greek.



PS
I'm sorry this got all cut up.
Something went wrong with the program.
Sorry.

 

[GracePeace]

If we love God, our sins will be held to a minimum.
This is a path you're on, as I much as I can tell, and I think you're way ahead of many on these fforums.

1. Jesus says not to compare yourself to other humans.
2. No, I am trying to have a solid foundation in Scripture so that I won't collapse under pressure. That is not the same thing as godliness. I wouldn't compare myself with those who disagree with me.

 

[amadeus]

1. Jesus says not to compare yourself to other humans.
2. No, I am trying to have a solid foundation in Scripture so that I won't collapse under pressure. That is not the same thing as godliness. I wouldn't compare myself with those who disagree with me.

2co 10:12

For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

 

[GracePeace]

2co 10:12

For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Yeah, I have been through a lot--you couldn't believe, you'd think i was lying--and it has shaken my faith to its very foundations. I need certainty. That only comes from the written word. That's what I've been aiming at since about 2009. Godliness comes from Grace--my dissenters have Grace, but they don't have stable foundations in Scripture.

 

[amadeus]

Yeah, I have been through a lot--you couldn't believe, you'd think i was lying--and it has shaken my faith to its very foundations. I need certainty. That only comes from the written word. That's what I've been aiming at since about 2009.

Our God is indeed our certainty through His Son, Jesus. Sometimes it may come out in ways that others cannot believe. Simply keep on seeking first His kingdom and His righteousness. [from Matt 6:33]

 

[GracePeace]

Averting punishment is not a bad reason to obey.

It actually is. Already did it, and God, on various fronts (various reasons), objected to it.

If you're living like God is threatening you, that is construed as a lie against God, because that's not the "arrangement" we have with God. Lying about God is not faith, so how can you have grace in it?

Fear (averting punishment) is also inextricably tied to boasting (Judges 7:2+), which means it is indicative that you are trying to produce a righteousness of your own whereby you hope to get God to accept you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What I meant was that whether you "see" it or not makes no difference as to whether it is there or not.

Yes, that goes without saying.
I think I understand what the scriptures say, and I assume everyone else does, too. I always strive to grasp the message you're trying to convey in your posts. I always make sure to ask questions and check if I understand your logic and reasoning. It might require more effort on your part, but it shows that I respect you when I take the time to listen.

I've acknowledged that you have that view.

Okay, but was hoping for a little more.

So you say, but Galatians 5:7 says they HAD run well, but had been hindered from obeying the truth.

I agree, but what does that mean in terms of each individual's current salvation status in comparison to their former status? We can't know this from Paul's generalizations about a group of people. All we know is that the Galatian church, generally speaking, was once "running well" but got tripped up somewhere along the way by some false teachers. We can't assume that each member of the church was "in Christ", especially as Paul defines the term.

Being in the faith is being in Christ.

I don't know what you mean by that. In general usage, an individual was considered "in" a teacher if that individual formalized his discipleship through the ritual of baptism. For example, all of those who became disciples of John the Baptist were considered "in John" having been baptized "into John's baptism." (Acts 19) By way of metonymy, to be baptized into John was to be baptized into his teaching.

The same is true of Jesus' disciples. Those who wished to become disciples of Jesus and make the necessary commitment to follow him faithfully were baptized "into" Jesus, and they were considered "in Jesus." That is, they were immersed in Jesus' teaching.

As you rightly point out, not all who promise to be his disciples will remain disciples; some will undoubtedly fall away.

After all of that, Paul uses the term "in Christ" in his writings to indicate a believer who won't fall away. Romans 8, for instance, is lacking in conditional statements and warnings associated with the possibility of falling away. Romans 8 discusses God's elect, those whom God has sanctified by his Spirit. In that discussion, God is the agent of all the action and God is the one meeting all the conditionals.

From this, we conclude that if a disciple of Christ should fall away, that man was not one of God's elect. He was not "in Christ" the way Paul means it in Romans 8, he was not given the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ and he will not be raised from the dead as Christ was.

As soon as Cornelius believed, he received the Spirit.
1 Jn 3:23,24 says if we keep His commands we abide in Him and He gives us His Spirit.
Clearly, when the Galatians believed and received the Spirit they were in Christ.

Paul is not saying that the Galatians received the Spirit in the same way that Cornelius did or that they were endowed with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Rather, Paul refers to the role of the Spirit as described by Jesus in John's gospel, where he refers to the Spirit as the spirit of truth. John 14:7, 15:26, 16:12-15 Paul and the Holy Spirit -- the spirit of truth -- worked together to bring the gospel message to the Galatians.

In Galatians 3:1-5, Paul mentions the miracles that were performed at the church, which was one way that the Galatian church "received" the Spirit. To "receive" the Spirit in this context means to give the Spirit a chance to speak and be heard. Paul isn't saying that the Galatians were speaking in tongues or prophesying.

There is no ambiguity or uncertainty : believing in the Name of God's Son is obedience to God's Command, thus you qualify to abide in Christ, thus you receive the Spirit, eternal life, that is only located in Christ (1 Jn 3:23,24, 5:11).

There is always ambiguity with language, which is why we understand what someone says from the passage under consideration. We can't understand the meaning of a word unless it is used in a sentence. And we can't understand a sentence unless it is used in a paragraph, and we can't understand a paragraph unless we know the larger context.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Instances of sinning are instances of following idols (1 Jn 5:21), instances of not remaining (1 Jn 2:28)--in the Galatians' believing in "another Gospel", that was "deserting God" (Gal 1:6), because it is idolatry (1 Jn 5:21), breaking God's command (1 Jn 3:23,24).
The persuasion did not come from God (Gal 5:8), thus it came from a demon (1 Ti 4:1), and the idols are demons (1 Co 19,20)--they were committing idolatry (1 Jn 5:21), not remaining (1 Jn 2:28).
To sin is to not remain in Christ. In Christ there is no sin.

So, let me reiterate what I believe you are conveying, and please correct me if I have misinterpreted.

When you say, "In Christ, there is no sin," you are not making a propositional statement about the nature of Jesus, i.e., his character or some other innate quality that defines him personally. Instead, you are making a propositional statement concerning his followers?

This is the entire OP : those who sin do not remain, and we know this, because "there is no condemnation for those in Christ" (Ro 8:1), yet the believer who sins "is condemned" (Ro 14:23).

But isn't that an overgeneralization? Peter sinned, and yet he remained in Christ. How does your view account for people like Peter?

 

[CadyandZoe]

@CadyandZoe Tangentially, the only part that gets me, the bridge I'm missing, that I haven't crossed, is that the manner of living, walking by faith, being described is described as "giving thanks" (Ro 14:6), whereas I have the habit of focusing more on averting punishment, which is a serious error, because the lazy servant, who thinks that way, goes to hell (Mt 25).

As mentioned, I grew up with a Muslim terrorist step father who was extremely severe with us, so maybe that's why I miss certain things, certain things of substance.

I am honored to hear your testimony as I like to hear accounts of those living "in Christ" where the rubber meets the road. Thank-you.

I can only offer this word of encouragement. The Holy Spirit is patient and faithful and if you miss something of substance this time, there will be another time.

Have a great 4th of July up there in Flag.

 

[GracePeace]

Okay, but was hoping for a little more.

By "a little more", do you mean that I would change my mind?
That's not going to happen without actual substantive reasons.

I agree, but what does that mean in terms of each individual's current salvation status in comparison to their former status? We can't know this from Paul's generalizations about a group of people. All we know is that the Galatian church, generally speaking, was once "running well" but got tripped up somewhere along the way by some false teachers. We can't assume that each member of the church was "in Christ", especially as Paul defines the term.

When I look at the constellation of remarks Paul issues, the matter is transparent.

Galatians 3
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing?

The very ones who had received the Spirit by hearing the Gospel with faith were now seeking perfection by the flesh/the works of the Law--they had run well, but had been hindered from obeying the truth by a false Gospel of being under the Law of Moses.
They were deserting God by believing in a false Gospel of being under the Law, they had begun in the Spirit but were seeking to be perfected by the flesh, Paul was again in pains of labor trying to form Christ in them (Christ is in you unless you fail the test of faith) they were severed from Christ, they had run well, but were now being hindered from obeying the truth.

I don't know what you mean by that. In general usage, an individual was considered "in" a teacher if that individual formalized his discipleship through the ritual of baptism. For example, all of those who became disciples of John the Baptist were considered "in John" having been baptized "into John's baptism." (Acts 19) By way of metonymy, to be baptized into John was to be baptized into his teaching.

The same is true of Jesus' disciples. Those who wished to become disciples of Jesus and make the necessary commitment to follow him faithfully were baptized "into" Jesus, and they were considered "in Jesus." That is, they were immersed in Jesus' teaching.

Irrelevant words.
Cornelius was "in Christ" when he heard the Gospel with faith--we know this because he was granted the Spirit.
1 Jn 5:11 says the eternal life is only in His Son.
1 Jn 3:23,24 says you remain in Him by obeying, those in Him are supplied with the Spirit.
Hearing with faith is obeying the Law of Faith.
Hearing with doubt is disobeying the Law of Faith.
Those who obey abide, those who disobey do not abide.
Sin is the marker for those in Christ or out of Christ.

As you rightly point out, not all who promise to be his disciples will remain disciples; some will undoubtedly fall away.

After all of that, Paul uses the term "in Christ" in his writings to indicate a believer who won't fall away. Romans 8, for instance, is lacking in conditional statements and warnings associated with the possibility of falling away. Romans 8 discusses God's elect, those whom God has sanctified by his Spirit. In that discussion, God is the agent of all the action and God is the one meeting all the conditionals.

From this, we conclude that if a disciple of Christ should fall away, that man was not one of God's elect. He was not "in Christ" the way Paul means it in Romans 8, he was not given the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ and he will not be raised from the dead as Christ was.

No, actually, you're importing that into the text--the text comments nowhere on the durability of the one "in Christ"--and the conditionals follow immediately after (IF you live according to the flesh you will die).

Paul is not saying that the Galatians received the Spirit in the same way that Cornelius did or that they were endowed with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Rather, Paul refers to the role of the Spirit as described by Jesus in John's gospel, where he refers to the Spirit as the spirit of truth. John 14:7, 15:26, 16:12-15 Paul and the Holy Spirit -- the spirit of truth -- worked together to bring the gospel message to the Galatians.

Nope, they heard with faith, just as Cornelius.
Why else would Paul be "astonished" they were so quickly deserting God?

Anyway, I know you're not going to be moved from your position--and I won't be moved from mine.

In Galatians 3:1-5, Paul mentions the miracles that were performed at the church, which was one way that the Galatian church "received" the Spirit. To "receive" the Spirit in this context means to give the Spirit a chance to speak and be heard. Paul isn't saying that the Galatians were speaking in tongues or prophesying.

For all the reasons I shared previously, the constellation of Paul's statements to them, I reject this.

See, I don't need to invent non-existent categories of "receiving the Spirit" to try to justify my position. My position is crisp and clean and clear. Yours is garbled with non-existent distinctions of receiving the Spirit. You're like a Catholic adding to the text. I have more respect than that.

I stand by the fact that they were not abiding in Christ because they were breaking the Law of Faith, but we abide in Him by keeping His Command. Simple.

There is always ambiguity with language, which is why we understand what someone says from the passage under consideration. We can't understand the meaning of a word unless it is used in a sentence. And we can't understand a sentence unless it is used in a paragraph, and we can't understand a paragraph unless we know the larger context.

There is no ambiguity on the issue.

 

[GracePeace]

So, let me reiterate what I believe you are conveying, and please correct me if I have misinterpreted.

When you say, "In Christ, there is no sin," you are not making a propositional statement about the nature of Jesus, i.e., his character or some other innate quality that defines him personally. Instead, you are making a propositional statement concerning his followers?

Yep, it's about Christ, and it has implications for what it means for His disciples to be abiding in Him--and 1 Jn 3:23,24 says if we keep His commands we abide in Him (also Jn 15). Keeping commands is not sinning. It's the opposite of sinning. See how that works? Then we see those who break His commands are "condemned" (Ro 14:23) and "severed from Christ" (Gal 5:4).
Simple.

But isn't that an overgeneralization? Peter sinned, and yet he remained in Christ. How does your view account for people like Peter?

When Peter sinned, "he stood condemned"--but there's "no condemnation for those in Christ".
As I already stated, I'm not saying a single sin means "the game is over", I'm simply elaborating on the rules of the game in stating that, technically, when a person sins, that is them not remaining in Christ. Yes, we can be forgiven--that is obedience to the first part of the Law of Faith ("believe in the Name of God's Son").
So, people may veer from being "in Christ", and they are to return.
Peter did not remain in Christ. He left Christ and returned to Christ.
He was not speaking or walking in the truth. Was he in Christ then?
Christ is the truth. Peter was actually contradicting the truth.
"In Him there is no sin"--but you say all this sin happens in Christ.