Jesus returns, Jesus judges, the good inherit the earth, and the bad are sent to Hell "age-during"

[ewq1938]

At this point Jesus could materialize before you and tell you that all will be with God and I'm confident that you would tell Jesus that he is wrong.

That is just ad hominem. You attack the person not the argument.

 

[Patrick1966]

That is just ad hominem. You attack the person not the argument. It's not impressive.

If God's words don't convince you then I doubt Jesus appearing to you in the flesh would matter either. I'm not attacking you; I'm simply pointing out your extreme stubbornness. :)

 

[ewq1938]

If God's words don't convince you then I doubt Jesus appearing to you in the flesh would matter either. I'm not attacking you; I'm simply pointing out your extreme stubbornness. :)

Which is what personal attacking/ad hominem is. Stop making insults and deal with the arguments.

 

[Patrick1966]

Which is what personal attacking/ad hominem is. Stop making insults and deal with the arguments.

Don't make me bring over those Chipmunk albums!

 

[gadar]

Ok. So what do you make of the "age-during" statement in verse 46?

As you know the age is the Millennial Age where the goats are condemned to the LOF for 1,000 years and the sheep are allowed to occupy the earth for the same amount of time. As such, aiōnion cannot mean eternal.

Based on what? I can't find one verse that speaks of people jumping out of the lake of fire.

May I suggest you examine those who are referred to as the "kings of the earth" in Revelation. They are always and without exception described as the enemies of God. The phrase βασιλεῖς τῆς γῆς transliterated as basileus ho gē or "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev. 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation, the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the sworn enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their glory and honor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). There is no variance in the Greek as to how they are described as the phrase kings of the earth/basileus ho gē is the same in all occurrences in Revelation. In order to maintain a consistent hermeneutic, one must assume that these kings who enter the New Jerusalem are the same kings described elsewhere in Revelation unless something in the text indicates otherwise. I can find nothing in the text that indicates such a difference.

Now that we have identified the "who" question in regards to who the kings of the earth are, the next question is how is it possible that they can enter the city? After all, nothing unclean, detestable, false can enter but only those in the Lamb's Book of Life. The kings of the earth were God's sworn enemies whom He vanquished at Jesus' second coming. They certainly don't meet the criteria for being in the Lamb's book of life as specified in Rev 21:27 and as a result they end up in the lake of fire. You claim that you can't find one verse that refers to people "jumping out of the lake of fire" but how does one explain how come the kings of the earth get a second chance? One has to explain why they are allowed into the New Jerusalem as described in Rev 21:24. My explanation is those in the LOF are the ones washing their robes/doing (present tense participles) His commandments in 22:14. The kings of the earth have to wash their garments to make them clean/do his commandments while in the LOF - which they refused to do while they were alive on the earth. These are actions that constitute their repentance and in doing so, they will then have the right to the Tree of Life and they shall enter through the gates of the city.

Now that we have answered the "how" question of how the kings of the earth are allowed to enter the New Jerusalem, the next question is why are they allowed to enter. The simple answer is that it fulfills God's purpose to reconcile ALL to Himself.
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Phil 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What God wills, He is more than able to accomplish. Neither eternal conscious torment in the lake of fire or annihilation accomplishes God's stated purpose of reconciliation. Even to the extent that the kings of the earth are eventually reconciled to God and enter into the New Jerusalem.

 

[Patrick1966]

Excerpt:

If “forever” can seem to work as a translation, why quibble about it? The problem is there are also dozens of verses where this translation would be nonsensical. Consider, for example, when the resurrected Jesus gave encouragement to his disciples on a mountain in Galilee: “and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world [aiōnos]” (Matt 28:20; KJV). Clearly, this couldn’t be translated as “unto the end of the forever”, or “unto the end of the eternity”. So, what is going on with the original Greek? The Greek closes ἕωςτῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος, which translates more literally as “until the completion of the age [aiōnos]”. Yet here, the KJV suddenly chooses “world”.
It does so in many other instances where “forever” would be clearly unsuitable. Consider Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, where he warns the fledgling church “be not conformed to this world” (Rom 12:2; KJV). The Greek here is μὴ συσχηματίζεσθε τῷ αἰῶνι, quite literally “be not conformed to the age [aiōni]”. Clearly, “be not conformed to this forever” or “be not conformed to this eternity” would make no sense. And so the KJV and many other major English-language bibles, which translate aion as “forever” elsewhere, are here forced to use a very different word: “world”.
In other instances, the problems posed are even more obvious, because it is explicitly stated that the aion has an end, and therefore cannot be eternal. Consider Jesus’ parable of the tares: “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world [aiōnos]” (Matt 13:40; KJV). Of course, one cannot speak of the end of an eternity!

 

[WPM]

That's harsh.

If Jesus doesn't save the whole world then he is NOT the "savior" of the whole world.

What does this mean? Did Paul fail to include the part that this verse is only true for those who willingly go to Jesus?

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

You obviously know Jesus forbids your teaching. You ducked around the texts presented.

 

[WPM]

When you give them God's word and they reject it, the only recourse is to shake the sand and move on to more fruitful exchanges.

This is very prideful. You do not know it all. In fact, this is heresy you are teaching.

 

[WPM]

I have been judged and condemned.

It is time to listen instead of talk.

 

[WPM]

Absolutely. I believe they are doing exactly as God intended them to do. After all, a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Satan and the fallen angels torment (test) us for the purpose of our spiritual development, education, and edification. I believe God transformed them to perform this task and that, in the end, they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to be restored to perfection.

I notice that you never support your arguments with clear Scripture that says what you are saying. Where in the Bible does it say "Satan and the fallen angels torment (test) us for the purpose of our spiritual development, education, and edification"? Show us Scripture instead of always voicing your opinions.

This is an ancient heresy that you promote! What church do you go to?

 

[WPM]

I didn't question any of that. You asked if I am deceived. I confessed that I am undoubtedly "deceived" about many things. I asked if your understanding is complete and infallible and you declined to answer. So be it.

I didn't ask you if you were deceived.

Also, you did question that. You asked re the destruction that occurs when Jesus comes: "Does our loving, merciful, God roast those that have a slight misunderstanding?" You are happy accepting that God roasted Sodom and Gommorrah and the other 3 cities back in the day, but not a Christ-rejecting world at the end? This duplicity of the highest degree! To totally decimate your own argument. That is what heresy produces.

 

[jeffweeder]

I reckon that I am deceived about a great many things. How about you? Is your understanding of everything complete and infallible? Does our loving, merciful, God roast those that have a slight misunderstanding?

No he doesnt roast them. His grace is sufficient for those that seek him.

I wasnt accusing you of being deceived Bro'.

One should just believe what 2 thess 1 has to say about what happens to the gospel rejecters on the day he comes to be Glorified in all that have believed... do not be deceived into believing otherwise.

Those who do not reject the Gospel are glorified at his coming.

 

[Truth7t7]

No he doesnt roast them. His grace is sufficient for those that seek him.

I wasnt accusing you of being deceived Bro'.

One should just believe what 2 thess 1 has to say about what happens to the gospel rejecters on the day he comes to be Glorified in all that have believed... do not be deceived into believing otherwise.

Those who do not reject the Gospel are glorified at his coming.

The poster is a "Universalist" that believes and teaches all will be saved, even Satan and the fallen angels

A heretical false doctrine found no place in scripture

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Perhaps I'm not understanding you. Jesus immediately sends them to "the fire" which is the Lake of Fire, right? So why would they be resurrected only to be sent back to the LOF? That doesn't make any sense.

41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

Matthew 25:41 is the same event as Revelation 20:15. When does it indicate that Matthew 25:31-46 will occur? When Jesus comes again with His angels, right? And when does Revelation 20:11-15 occur? After the thousand years (and Satan's little season). So, what does this mean? That Jesus will return after the thousand years to judge all people with all unbelievers being cast "into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" which is the lake of fire.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does the GWTJ occur immediately upon Christ's return?

Yes, and that is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. Don't be fooled by false doctrines that teach multiple future judgment events. God has appointed ONE judgment day when He will judge all people.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not my opinion; it's God word. After all, if people go to Hell for eternity then 1 Timothy 4:10 is false, and I know that's not the case.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

You are sadly mistaken. What that verse means is that God is the only One who can save people. But, the ones who actually are saved are "those who believe". NOWHERE in scripture does it teach that all people will be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

This passage makes it clear that only those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life while those who do not are condemned and will not have eternal life in God's presence like believers will.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think Jesus was saying that we need to stay on his path because living as he tells us to live is a good way to live, both in this life and in the hereafter.

Rejecting his path and taking other paths leads to destruction in this life and in the life to come.

Yes, some souls may need to visit the Lake of Fire (Hell) but it will be for a period of time, not forever.

Where is this taught in scripture?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's harsh.

If Jesus doesn't save the whole world then he is NOT the "savior" of the whole world.

Not in the sense that you are thinking of, but scripture never claims that He is the Savior of the world in that sense. What scripture teaches is that He is the only One who can save the people of the world (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), but it also teaches that the only ones who are actually saved are those who believe. It makes no sense to think that God would save someone who doesn't even believe and has completely rejected Him. Why would He let such a person off the hook for their rebellion and rejection of Him? Scripture says that God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). What if someone refuses to do so? God will save them, anyway? No chance! That's nonsense.

 

[Patrick1966]

You are sadly mistaken. What that verse means is that God is the only One who can save people. But, the ones who actually are saved are "those who believe".

No, the verse "means" EXACTLY what it says.

 

[Patrick1966]

...the only ones who are actually saved are those who believe.

Saved from what?