Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[covenantee]

Your post doesn't address the issue, lacking anything to say about God's promise to Paul's nation.

Here are many promises.

Any reference to the "nation of Israel" is conspicuously absent.

 

[covenantee]

Wow. Really? Did you not read verse 6?

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed.

Why did you not italicize "not"?

There's a diametric difference between "it is" and "it is not".

Any imaginary "troubling perception" is yours alone.

It is due to your refusal to understand the difference between "all Israel" and "of Israel".

Until you do, your "troubling perception" will persist.

 

[WPM]

I don't think the fire is really melting everything on earth. I think it's expressing the fact that God's word can melt anyone's mind and heart.

(John 10:10)
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

So what other literal detail do we need to spiritualize away?

 

[WPM]

I don't disagree with you about those 2 chapters 4 and 5. I'm not a Pretribber. My view of Ezekiel 38-39 is that Christ returns during those events and that it is during the DOTL that He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude. IOW, I see Ezekiel 39:17-20 involving the same events Revelation 19 is involving.

So, what do you do with Ez 40-47? Is it a literal temple with literal sacrifices in your future millennium?

 

[soberxp]

So what other literal detail do we need to spiritualize away?

I think it needs to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It became and becomes true and fulfilled for every Jew who received and receives salvation through Christ's New Covenant and Blood.
Which began 2,000 years ago at Calvary.

I concur with that perspective. However, it's important to note that Paul's argument in Romans 9 acknowledges that God's promise to save the nation of Israel and his fellow kinsmen is still an unfulfilled commitment. This indicates a complexity in the understanding of divine promise and fulfillment, highlighting the ongoing significance of Israel in God's redemptive plan. Paul seems to suggest that while God’s promises are certain, their realization may extend beyond present circumstances, inviting a deeper reflection on the themes of faith, election, and salvation throughout biblical history.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Jeremiah passage is quoted virtually verbatim in Hebrews 8:8-12. Why did you ignore it?
It is prefaced by Hebrews 8:6 and concluded by Hebrews 8:13:
Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Both verses are expressed in the past and present tenses, signifying that what lies between them was true and fulfilled when written.

It became and becomes true and fulfilled for every Jew who received and receives salvation through Christ's New Covenant and Blood.
Which began 2,000 years ago at Calvary.

I concur that Paul’s message was indeed accurate and came to fruition at the time it was composed. However, I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that he is indicating the entire passage from Jeremiah was completely fulfilled during the first century. Instead, it seems that Paul's interpretation suggests that certain elements of the prophecy may have been realized, while other aspects could still hold relevance or await fulfillment in future contexts. This distinction is important to understand the broader implications of his message and the ongoing nature of biblical prophecy.

Your perspective seems to overlook two crucial components found in the passage from Jeremiah. Firstly, the concept of the law being inscribed on the heart signifies an internalization of God's commandments, suggesting a profound personal connection and moral understanding. Secondly, the phrase "Each man and his neighbor shall know the Lord" emphasizes the importance of universal communal knowledge and relationship with God within the houses of Judah and Israel, indicating that this understanding of faith is meant to be shared and experienced collectively among all individuals within those houses. Both elements highlight a transformative spiritual relationship that goes beyond mere adherence to external rules.

Jeremiah 31: 33-34 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”​

Three aspects:

1. Law on the heart
2. Each man and his neighbor
3. I will forgive their iniquity

The crucifixion of Christ serves as the foundational pillar for the third point mentioned above. Through His sacrifice, God offers forgiveness for the sins and iniquities of all who place their faith in Jesus Christ. This profound act of grace promises that, in the future, every one of Paul's kinsmen, alongside their neighbors, will experience a transformative relationship with the divine, characterized by the Law being inscribed within their hearts. This change signifies a deeper understanding and adherence to God’s principles. Furthermore, it is foretold that all descendants of Jacob, who reside in Israel, will come to a point of genuine trust and reliance on the Lord, embracing the New Covenant established through Christ’s redemptive work. This covenant represents a renewed promise where the relationship between God and His people is based on faith, love, and spiritual renewal.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Here are many promises.

Any reference to the "nation of Israel" is conspicuously absent.

The conversation is focused explicitly on understanding Paul's argument in Romans chapters 9 through 11. Paul asserts that eternal life belongs to his people, his kinsmen. Jeremiah writes that the promise of eternal life will apply to "each man and his neighbor."

What do you think motivates him to dedicate three extra chapters to examining his nation after Paul's message about the inclusive and universal nature of access to God's grace through faith alone? The first eight chapters of Romans are enough for his readers to understand that God's favor is directed to those who believe in his son, Jesus Christ, and trust in the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

The initial eight chapters focus on the theme of individual salvation, exploring the personal journey and transformation of believers. Following this, the next three chapters shift their attention to a significant promise that God made to Paul's kinsmen, addressing the broader context of his nation as a whole. This transition highlights the collective significance of faith and redemption beyond individual experiences.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why did you not italicize "not"?

The NASB translation supplied the italics, indicating that the words are not in the original Greek, but were added for the sake of clarity.

It is due to your refusal to understand the difference between "all Israel" and "of Israel".

The meaning of those phrases is context-dependent. What's your point?

 

[Scott Downey]

I think it needs to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

In this case it is the Day of the Lord basis

And the sudden destruction to come, so it is universal to the world

2 Peter 3 entire chapter for relevance, it is about the end of the world at the promise of Christ's return.
When Christ returns, it is the resurrection, the judgement, the world will be destroyed, and God will create for us a new earth which will have no evil things.

God’s Promise Is Not Slack​

1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Be Steadfast​

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

 

[covenantee]

The conversation is focused explicitly on understanding Paul's argument in Romans chapters 9 through 11. Paul asserts that eternal life belongs to his people, his kinsmen. Jeremiah writes that the promise of eternal life will apply to "each man and his neighbor."

What do you think motivates him to dedicate three extra chapters to examining his nation after Paul's message about the inclusive and universal nature of access to God's grace through faith alone? The first eight chapters of Romans are enough for his readers to understand that God's favor is directed to those who believe in his son, Jesus Christ, and trust in the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

The initial eight chapters focus on the theme of individual salvation, exploring the personal journey and transformation of believers. Following this, the next three chapters shift their attention to a significant promise that God made to Paul's kinsmen, addressing the broader context of his nation as a whole. This transition highlights the collective significance of faith and redemption beyond individual experiences.

Thanks for your confirmation.

Any reference to the "nation of Israel" is conspicuously absent.

 

[covenantee]

I concur with that perspective. However, it's important to note that Paul's argument in Romans 9 acknowledges that God's promise to save the nation of Israel and his fellow kinsmen is still an unfulfilled commitment. This indicates a complexity in the understanding of divine promise and fulfillment, highlighting the ongoing significance of Israel in God's redemptive plan. Paul seems to suggest that while God’s promises are certain, their realization may extend beyond present circumstances, inviting a deeper reflection on the themes of faith, election, and salvation throughout biblical history.

If you spent a fraction of the time that you spend attempting to contort God into a racist, instead learning to understand "all Israel" and "of Israel", you'd be immeasurably farther ahead.

But you refuse.

There's no "nation of Israel" in Romans 9.

There are "all Israel" and "of Israel".

Only "all Israel", whom Paul describes later as the "remnant" (Romans 9:27) in agreement with Isaiah, will be saved.

Since you refuse to understand, leave it for those who do understand.

 

[covenantee]

However, I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that he is indicating the entire passage from Jeremiah was completely fulfilled during the first century. Instead, it seems that Paul's interpretation suggests that certain elements of the prophecy may have been realized, while other aspects could still hold relevance or await fulfillment in future contexts.

He then would have used the future tense where applicable.

But he didn't.

Your interpretation is not his interpretation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks for your confirmation.

Any reference to the "nation of Israel" is conspicuously absent.

On the contrary, In his letter to the Romans, the Apostle Paul deliberately limits his use of the term "Israel" to specific sections, namely chapters 9 through 11. This intentional restriction suggests a significant shift in both the subject matter and focus within the epistle. By confining his discussion of Israel to these chapters, Paul not only highlights the importance of the theme but also distinguishes it from the broader theological arguments presented earlier in the letter. This change in focus allows him to explore the complexities of Israel's relationship with God, the implications of Israel’s covenant and identity, and the unfolding plan of salvation that encompasses both Jews and Gentiles. Thus, this thematic shift signals a pivotal moment in the text, drawing attention to the significance of Israel in God’s overarching redemptive narrative.

God made a solemn promise to transform Paul's nation into a vibrant community of believers. However, since this promise remained unfulfilled as described in Paul's letter, his teachings faced significant scrutiny and criticism from various quarters.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you spent a fraction of the time that you spend attempting to contort God into a racist, instead learning to understand "all Israel" and "of Israel", you'd be immeasurably farther ahead.

But you refuse.

There's no "nation of Israel" in Romans 9.

There are "all Israel" and "of Israel".

Only "all Israel", whom Paul describes later as the "remnant" (Romans 9:27) in agreement with Isaiah, will be saved.

Since you refuse to understand, leave it for those who do understand.

Don't miss the contrast between "The remnant" and "All Israel" in Romans 11.

Romans 11:25-27 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written ​

​

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”​

First, note how Paul contrasts Israel with the Gentiles, asserting that the partial hardening will continue until the Gentiles are full. Given that Paul draws a distinction between the Gentiles and a composite Israel, some believing and others hardened, we understand that Paul is comparing Israel to the Ecclesia. Israel will remain a composite country until all of the Gentile believers have been brought into the Ecclesia. After that, and not a moment sooner, Jesus will come to Zion and God will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

Earlier, Paul asserts that not all of Jacob's descendants will be included in the Israel of Promise. But Paul doesn't say how that will look. Malachi and Joel explain how that will come about. At some time in Israel's future, a call will go out for people to come to Jerusalem to pray for the deliverance of Israel. Those who fear God will make the trip. The arrogant evil-doers will stay home. Then God will send his armies of fire and incinerate those who stayed home. Those who come to Jerusalem to call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. This is how God will remove ungodliness from Jacob.




Why does Paul say that there has come a partial hardening in Israel? In your perspective, Paul is focused on the fraction of the nation that are believers in contrast to the rest of the nation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

He then would have used the future tense where applicable.

But he didn't.

Your interpretation is not his interpretation.

As I previously mentioned, Paul’s remarks concerning Jeremiah hold significant truth and relevance in the context of his own time. However, it’s important to note that Paul did not address the reaction of his nation towards the New Covenant within that framework. While God had indeed established the New Covenant through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and His steadfast obedience to divine will, it is crucial to recognize that, at that moment, God had not fully poured out His Spirit upon Israel. This meant that the promise outlined in Jeremiah—that "each man and his neighbor" would come to know the Lord—had not yet been realized. The transformative experience of knowing God intimately and personally, as envisioned in the New Covenant, was still in anticipation for the people of Israel.

 

[covenantee]

While God had indeed established the New Covenant through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and His steadfast obedience to divine will, it is crucial to recognize that, at that moment, God had not fully poured out His Spirit upon Israel. This meant that the promise outlined in Jeremiah—that "each man and his neighbor" would come to know the Lord—had not yet been realized. The transformative experience of knowing God intimately and personally, as envisioned in the New Covenant, was still in anticipation for the people of Israel.

Scriptureless as usual.

Try these.

Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 

[covenantee]

Don't miss the contrast between "The remnant" and "All Israel" in Romans 11.

The remnant is saved in Romans 9:27.

"All Israel" is saved in Romans 9:6-8.

They are one and the same in Romans 9.

Therefore they are one and the same in Romans 11.

There is no contrast.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Scriptureless as usual.

Try these.

Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Peter is not claiming that Pentecost fulfilled Joel's prophecy. A review of Joel's prophecy reveals much more detail and events that did not occur during Pentecost.

 

[covenantee]

Peter is not claiming that Pentecost fulfilled Joel's prophecy. A review of Joel's prophecy reveals much more detail and events that did not occur during Pentecost.

Scriptureless and false.

Peter is claiming fulfillment at Pentecost ("this is that") beginning in the last days, which had already begun. (Hebrews 1:2)

Peter was not a dispensational futurite.

I believe Peter.

You don't.