Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[Scott Downey]

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Yes, the Israel who is of God gets saved, as God saves His family.
Cain was of the Devil and look what Cain did.

Romans 8

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren (brothers).

Ephesians 3
14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father [f]of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

1 John 3
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of [a]God! Therefore the world does not know [b]us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

God gives to His Son His children, (Hebrews 2:13 “Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”), that they were the Fathers before giving them to Christ as believers points to them as being chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, before time began, God knew us. Just like God says of Jeremiah, so this is not just a new concept of the New Covenant. This is one of the deep things of God.

The Prophet Is Called​

4 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified[a] you;
I [b]ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
6 Then said I:

“Ah, Lord God!
Behold, I cannot speak, for I am a youth.”
7 But the Lord said to me:

“Do not say, ‘I am a youth,’
For you shall go to all to whom I send you,
And whatever I command you, you shall speak.
8 Do not be afraid of their faces,
For I am with you to deliver you,” says the Lord.

John 17

6 “I have [c]manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.


2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

 

[covenantee]

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


Which Israel do you think this is referring to? Keeping in mind the text says 'restore again' something that couldnn't possibly apply to the church, as in 'restore again the kingdom to the church. Which then implies that the church was in possession of the kingdom at one time, then lost that possession and now needs the kingdom restored to it again. And BTW, restore again seems to imply something was already restored earlier, then taken away eventually, thus needs restored yet again. And if so, that fits the church exactly how?

IOW, make sense of Acts 1:6 for us.

The disciples evidently forgot or misunderstood this declaration by Christ to the chief priests and elders:

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

But there is no further reference in Scripture after Acts 1:6 to any "kingdom of Israel", so obviously the disciples caught on.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It refers to believing Israel ("all Israel") and unbelieving Israel ("of Israel"), both of which were existent when Paul wrote, have been existent ever since, and will be existent until Christ returns.

Of course. The point is, Paul is talking about literal Israel, not figurative Israel.

 

[covenantee]

Of course. The point is, Paul is talking about literal Israel, not figurative Israel.

Yes, the believers and unbelievers of literal Israel.

 

[Davidpt]

The disciples evidently forgot or misunderstood this declaration by Christ to the chief priests and elders:

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

But there is no further reference in Scripture after Acts 1:6 to any "kingdom of Israel", so obviously the disciples caught on.

Why didn't Jesus bother correcting them about any of these things, assuming they were asking this in vain? Look how He answered them, though---It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. What a bizarre way to answer if what they were asking of Him was in vain since there is no such thing as restoring again the kingdom to Israel. BTW, if you use the argument that verse 8 explains what He is meaning in verse 7, you do know that verse 8 was meaning some mere days later, right? And that times or the seasons can't fit within a few mere days, being the point.

 

[covenantee]

Why didn't Jesus bother correcting them about any of these things, assuming they were asking this in vain? Look how He answered them, though---It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. What a bizarre way to answer if what they were asking of Him was in vain since there is no such thing as restoring again the kingdom to Israel. BTW, if you use the argument that verse 8 explains what He is meaning in verse 7, you do know that verse 8 was meaning some mere days later, right? And that times or the seasons can't fit within a few mere days, being the point.

Jesus' response to the disciples' question is instructive. He refers to times and seasons.

Exegetically, times and seasons are associated with the day of the Lord, which is the final end of all things temporal.

Paul clarifies it.

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Peter completes it.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


There is not the slightest hint of a restored carnal Israelitic kingdom; and any reference thereafter to a "kingdom of Israel" never again appears in Scripture.

Jesus had made it clear that Israel was stripped of its kingdom, and under impending judgment and destruction. (Matthew 21:33-45)

That judgment and destruction fell upon it in 70 AD.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, the believers and unbelievers of literal Israel.

Many individuals miss the core message of Paul’s teachings because they fail to recognize that he is specifically addressing an objection to the gospel he preaches. To fully grasp his response, one must first understand the nature of this objection. It stems from a divine promise that God made to the Israelites, the nation to which Paul belongs, which assures them that He would grant His people the gift of eternal life.

During the time of Paul’s ministry, the gospel was gaining tremendous traction across the globe, particularly among Gentile populations, who were showing great interest in this message of salvation. However, this rapid spread of the gospel was met with significant resistance from Paul's own nation, the Jews, who were struggling to reconcile their longstanding beliefs with the new teachings being introduced by Paul.

The objection can be articulated as follows: "Paul, the message you advocate cannot possibly be true because God unequivocally promised that He would save 'each man and his neighbor.' Yet, we are not witnessing this fulfillment among our people, which raises doubts about the validity of your claims." Without understanding the depth of this objection, one might easily misinterpret Paul’s teachings and the broader implications of the gospel he was spreading.

The Amillennial interpretation of this passage falls short primarily because it overlooks a crucial aspect of Paul’s argument: the foundational promise from God to grant eternal life to His people. This promise is not merely an assurance of salvation but encompasses a transformative experience in which God pledges to soften the hearts of His followers and to fill them with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

In essence, the promise is twofold: it involves not just the gift of eternal life but also a divine act of renewal within the hearts of believers. This renewal is symbolized by the concept of spiritual circumcision, which represents a cutting away of the hardened heart and the beginning of a new life in faith. The absence of this transformation in the Amillennial framework suggests a significant gap in understanding God’s covenantal commitment to His people. Thus, the Amillennial interpretation can be seen as inadequate because it fails to recognize the depth and richness of God’s promise to completely change and redeem His chosen ones.

It is indeed a widely accepted belief that God has been actively sanctifying individuals from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds throughout the ages. However, there remains a significant concern regarding the fulfillment of God's promise to save the nation of Israel, as represented by Paul’s people. The Apostle Paul addresses this very issue in depth in the pages of Romans, specifically in chapters 9 through 11. In these chapters, he elaborates on the theological implications of Israel's current state, the significance of God's covenant, and the future hope for the Jewish nation. Paul underscores that although many Gentiles have come to faith, the promises made to Israel are not forgotten and will be fully realized in accordance with God's divine plan. This discourse provides a crucial understanding of the relationship between God's faithfulness and the eventual redemption of His chosen people.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Premil is mired in an old will and testament which has been replaced by the New Will and Testament of transcendent spiritual realities.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

God has appointed His Son alone as heir of all things. Unbelieving Israel is not an heir. Galatians 4:30-31.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that those who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.

But it is undeniable:

There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ.

Amen, brother! Excellent post.

 

[covenantee]

Many individuals miss the core message of Paul’s teachings because they fail to recognize that he is specifically addressing an objection to the gospel he preaches. To fully grasp his response, one must first understand the nature of this objection. It stems from a divine promise that God made to the Israelites, the nation to which Paul belongs, which assures them that He would grant His people the gift of eternal life.

During the time of Paul’s ministry, the gospel was gaining tremendous traction across the globe, particularly among Gentile populations, who were showing great interest in this message of salvation. However, this rapid spread of the gospel was met with significant resistance from Paul's own nation, the Jews, who were struggling to reconcile their longstanding beliefs with the new teachings being introduced by Paul.

The objection can be articulated as follows: "Paul, the message you advocate cannot possibly be true because God unequivocally promised that He would save 'each man and his neighbor.' Yet, we are not witnessing this fulfillment among our people, which raises doubts about the validity of your claims." Without understanding the depth of this objection, one might easily misinterpret Paul’s teachings and the broader implications of the gospel he was spreading.

The Amillennial interpretation of this passage falls short primarily because it overlooks a crucial aspect of Paul’s argument: the foundational promise from God to grant eternal life to His people. This promise is not merely an assurance of salvation but encompasses a transformative experience in which God pledges to soften the hearts of His followers and to fill them with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

In essence, the promise is twofold: it involves not just the gift of eternal life but also a divine act of renewal within the hearts of believers. This renewal is symbolized by the concept of spiritual circumcision, which represents a cutting away of the hardened heart and the beginning of a new life in faith. The absence of this transformation in the Amillennial framework suggests a significant gap in understanding God’s covenantal commitment to His people. Thus, the Amillennial interpretation can be seen as inadequate because it fails to recognize the depth and richness of God’s promise to completely change and redeem His chosen ones.

It is indeed a widely accepted belief that God has been actively sanctifying individuals from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds throughout the ages. However, there remains a significant concern regarding the fulfillment of God's promise to save the nation of Israel, as represented by Paul’s people. The Apostle Paul addresses this very issue in depth in the pages of Romans, specifically in chapters 9 through 11. In these chapters, he elaborates on the theological implications of Israel's current state, the significance of God's covenant, and the future hope for the Jewish nation. Paul underscores that although many Gentiles have come to faith, the promises made to Israel are not forgotten and will be fully realized in accordance with God's divine plan. This discourse provides a crucial understanding of the relationship between God's faithfulness and the eventual redemption of His chosen people.

Again, as always,

If you have NT Scripture disproving what I've cited and explained, then please cite and explain yours.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Again, as always,

If you have NT Scripture disproving what I've cited and explained, then please cite and explain yours.

I gave you NT scripture disproving what you SAID, not what you cited. Understand? The "two Israel" theory is false because it fails to understand Paul's message.

Paul addresses a challenge to the gospel, which claims that Paul is a false teacher because God made a promise to his nation that remains unfulfilled.

Romans 9:1-5 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.​

Paul firmly believes that the concept of "adoption as sons" is fundamentally tied to his kinsmen, referring specifically to the Israelites. This expression, "the adoption as sons," is a significant theological term that Paul uses to convey the profound idea of eternal life and the special relationship that comes with being chosen by God. In essence, Paul is asserting that this precious gift of eternal life is not just a general promise but is particularly designated for his relatives by blood, marking them as heirs to a spiritual inheritance and underscoring their unique status in God’s covenant.

Paul does not envision a future Israel characterized by a harmonious coexistence of both Jews and Gentiles, who are said to possess circumcised hearts, as some interpretations imply. In this particular passage, Paul's primary concern is for his fellow Israelites—his kin—whom he sees as the rightful recipients of God's promises. He emphasizes the unique covenantal relationship that God established with the Jewish people and reflects on the significance of that heritage. Rather than focusing on an inclusive future where different groups are united under a new understanding, Paul is deeply rooted in the historical and spiritual legacy of his people and the explicit promises made to them by God throughout their history.

In the preceding chapters, Paul laid out a compelling case advocating for the inclusion of Gentiles in the promise of eternal life. He emphasized that this promise is accessible through faith alone, rather than through adherence to ceremonial rituals or the Law. However, in chapter 9, Paul shifts his focus to address a new and significant issue that pertains to his own nation, the Israelites. He delves into the question of the unique covenantal promises that God made to the Jewish people as a collective group. Paul grapples with the profound implications of these promises in light of the current situation, exploring the complexities of Israel's relationship with God and the unfolding narrative of salvation history.

Paul is not drawing a direct comparison between literal Israel as a geographical or ethnic entity and figurative or spiritual Israel as it's understood in theological contexts. Rather, he is examining the present circumstances facing Israel in relation to God’s covenant promises, which were made to the nation. At this moment, it’s evident that not every descendant of Jacob has experienced the transformative act of having their hearts circumcised, as the scriptures prophesy will happen in the future. This indicates that there is still a fulfillment to come regarding God's promises to His people. Nevertheless, it is crucial to recognize that despite the current state of affairs, God’s commitment to His promises has not faltered or failed. In time, He will bring about the promised change in the hearts of His people, fulfilling the divine assurance that was given to Israel.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Amen, brother! Excellent post.

His post serves as strong confirmation of my objection to Amillennialism. It suggests to me that he holds the belief that the Old Testament lacks relevant teachings or insights for our understanding of eschatology. This perspective raises concerns about the value placed on the rich theological and prophetic content found in the Old Testament, which has historically informed many interpretations of the end times. It seems that he may overlook the significant contributions that these texts offer to a comprehensive understanding of biblical prophecy and its implications for our faith today.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus' response to the disciples' question is instructive. He refers to times and seasons.

Exegetically, times and seasons are associated with the day of the Lord, which is the final end of all things temporal.

Paul clarifies it.

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Peter completes it.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


There is not the slightest hint of a restored carnal Israelitic kingdom; and any reference thereafter to a "kingdom of Israel" never again appears in Scripture.

Jesus had made it clear that Israel was stripped of its kingdom, and under impending judgment and destruction. (Matthew 21:33-45)

That judgment and destruction fell upon it in 70 AD.

The Day of the Lord includes a return of Israel back to the land, the reestablishment of the nation, a call to pray in Jerusalem for the deliverance of the nation, the return of Jesus to deliver the nation from her enemies and a thousand years of peace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why didn't Jesus bother correcting them about any of these things, assuming they were asking this in vain? Look how He answered them, though---It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. What a bizarre way to answer if what they were asking of Him was in vain since there is no such thing as restoring again the kingdom to Israel. BTW, if you use the argument that verse 8 explains what He is meaning in verse 7, you do know that verse 8 was meaning some mere days later, right? And that times or the seasons can't fit within a few mere days, being the point.

It can't fit only in your carnal mind. Jesus understood that the kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of the world (John 18:36), so any thought that the kingdom is earthly contradicts other things that He said about His kingdom.

What does it mean to you for the kingdom to be restored to Israel? For it to be restored implies that it was taken away from them, which it was. But, who was it taken away from exactly? Not believers like the disciples. It was taken from unbelieving Jews like the scribes and Pharisees, according to Jesus in Matthew 21:43-45. You think the kingdom will one day be restored to people like that who Jesus railed against while calling them hypocrites and snakes?

 

[CadyandZoe]

It can't fit only in your carnal mind. Jesus understood that the kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of the world (John 18:36), so any thought that the kingdom is earthly contradicts other things that He said about His kingdom.

To say that the kingdom doesn't come with observation isn't to say that the kingdom can't be observed.

What does it mean to you for the kingdom to be restored to Israel? For it to be restored implies that it was taken away from them, which it was. But, who was it taken away from exactly? Not believers like the disciples. It was taken from unbelieving Jews like the scribes and Pharisees, according to Jesus in Matthew 21:43-45. You think the kingdom will one day be restored to people like that who Jesus railed against while calling them hypocrites and snakes?

When the Kingdom is restored to Israel, all of the people will be believers.

 

[covenantee]

I gave you NT scripture disproving what you SAID, not what you cited. Understand? The "two Israel" theory is false because it fails to understand Paul's message.

Paul addresses a challenge to the gospel, which claims that Paul is a false teacher because God made a promise to his nation that remains unfulfilled.

Romans 9:1-5 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.​

Paul firmly believes that the concept of "adoption as sons" is fundamentally tied to his kinsmen, referring specifically to the Israelites. This expression, "the adoption as sons," is a significant theological term that Paul uses to convey the profound idea of eternal life and the special relationship that comes with being chosen by God. In essence, Paul is asserting that this precious gift of eternal life is not just a general promise but is particularly designated for his relatives by blood, marking them as heirs to a spiritual inheritance and underscoring their unique status in God’s covenant.

Paul does not envision a future Israel characterized by a harmonious coexistence of both Jews and Gentiles, who are said to possess circumcised hearts, as some interpretations imply. In this particular passage, Paul's primary concern is for his fellow Israelites—his kin—whom he sees as the rightful recipients of God's promises. He emphasizes the unique covenantal relationship that God established with the Jewish people and reflects on the significance of that heritage. Rather than focusing on an inclusive future where different groups are united under a new understanding, Paul is deeply rooted in the historical and spiritual legacy of his people and the explicit promises made to them by God throughout their history.

In the preceding chapters, Paul laid out a compelling case advocating for the inclusion of Gentiles in the promise of eternal life. He emphasized that this promise is accessible through faith alone, rather than through adherence to ceremonial rituals or the Law. However, in chapter 9, Paul shifts his focus to address a new and significant issue that pertains to his own nation, the Israelites. He delves into the question of the unique covenantal promises that God made to the Jewish people as a collective group. Paul grapples with the profound implications of these promises in light of the current situation, exploring the complexities of Israel's relationship with God and the unfolding narrative of salvation history.

Paul is not drawing a direct comparison between literal Israel as a geographical or ethnic entity and figurative or spiritual Israel as it's understood in theological contexts. Rather, he is examining the present circumstances facing Israel in relation to God’s covenant promises, which were made to the nation. At this moment, it’s evident that not every descendant of Jacob has experienced the transformative act of having their hearts circumcised, as the scriptures prophesy will happen in the future. This indicates that there is still a fulfillment to come regarding God's promises to His people. Nevertheless, it is crucial to recognize that despite the current state of affairs, God’s commitment to His promises has not faltered or failed. In time, He will bring about the promised change in the hearts of His people, fulfilling the divine assurance that was given to Israel.

Don't lecture me. Lecture Paul. It is he who identifies "all Israel" and "of Israel".

Why does Paul have "great heaviness and continual sorrow" in his heart in Romans 9:2? If he believed your version of Israelitic salvation, he'd be beside himself with ecstasy.

But he isn't. Because the list which he enumerates in Romans 9:4 does not include salvation.

Thus his prayer in Romans 10:1: "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

And he knows that only the believing "all Israel" remnant will be saved (Romans 9:27).

Comprehend?

 

[covenantee]

The Day of the Lord includes a return of Israel back to the land, the reestablishment of the nation, a call to pray in Jerusalem for the deliverance of the nation, the return of Jesus to deliver the nation from her enemies and a thousand years of peace.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Whom to believe?

You
or
Peter

Need a hint?

 

[Davidpt]

Jesus' response to the disciples' question is instructive. He refers to times and seasons.

Exegetically, times and seasons are associated with the day of the Lord, which is the final end of all things temporal.

Paul clarifies it.

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Peter completes it.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


There is not the slightest hint of a restored carnal Israelitic kingdom; and any reference thereafter to a "kingdom of Israel" never again appears in Scripture.

Jesus had made it clear that Israel was stripped of its kingdom, and under impending judgment and destruction. (Matthew 21:33-45)

That judgment and destruction fell upon it in 70 AD.

I'm at least glad you never used verse 8 to explain verse 7. In the past I have seen others actually do so.

Actually then, I agree that what Jesus meant by times and seasons likely involves the DOTL. But in what way would the DOTL involve restoring again the kingdom to Israel? Well, except you apparently don't think He is going to do that, period. In that case I disagree, since I tend to think some of Ezekiel 38 and 39 is involving the DOTL, it would be once He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude during the DOTL. Which then eventually results in what the last verse in Ezekiel 39 says---Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. This last verse can't be true until the following verses are true first.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward

Some try and apply Acts 1:8 to Ezekiel 39:29, except Ezekiel 39:29 can't come to pass until verse 21 and 22 are fulfilled first. We have to keep in mind that Ezekiel 38 and 39 involve prophecies, and that prophesies typically involve chronology. And that the chronology has to make sense. No way to make sense of the chronology in Ezekiel 38-39 if Ezekiel 39:29 isn't true until Ezekiel 39:21-21 is true first, then some insisting verse 29 was already fulfilled 2000 years earlier. That renders the texts nonsensical when the idea is to make sense out of the texts instead.

 

[Davidpt]

It can't fit only in your carnal mind. Jesus understood that the kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of the world (John 18:36), so any thought that the kingdom is earthly contradicts other things that He said about His kingdom.

What does it mean to you for the kingdom to be restored to Israel? For it to be restored implies that it was taken away from them, which it was. But, who was it taken away from exactly? Not believers like the disciples. It was taken from unbelieving Jews like the scribes and Pharisees, according to Jesus in Matthew 21:43-45. You think the kingdom will one day be restored to people like that who Jesus railed against while calling them hypocrites and snakes?

The post I made before this one might explain how I'm trying to see some of this. I'm almost afraid to ask, lol. What are your thoughts on that post? It would be something if you actually surprised me for once and admitted that maybe I'm on to something here. Except you are not good at surprising anyone the fact you appear to have no experience surprising anyone. IOW, I already know in advance how you are going to react to what I post before you react to it. That unless you already agreed with me to begin with, you are pretty much going to reject everything I have concluded.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Don't lecture me. Lecture Paul. It is he who identifies "all Israel" and "of Israel".

I agree. However we disagree over what Paul said and who he identified. I already gave you two posts defending my contention that Paul is talking about Natural born Israel. Your view that Paul is talking about any other group than his own nation is not justified.

Why does Paul have "great heaviness and continual sorrow" in his heart in Romans 9:2? If he believed your version of Israelitic salvation, he'd be beside himself with ecstasy.

He tells you. The weight that rests heavily on his heart stems from the troubling perception that God has failed to uphold His promise to His chosen nation. This feeling of disappointment and despair arises from witnessing the disbelief among his people, leading others to question the faithfulness of divine assurances. The gap between expectation and reality is a barrier to Jewish acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah, and so Paul has set out to reassure his Jewish readers that God's promise to them has not failed.

But he isn't. Because the list which he enumerates in Romans 9:4 does not include salvation.

Yes, it does. As I pointed out earlier, the phrase "adoption as sons" is a feature of how Paul conceives of the gift of eternal life.
Romans 8:15, 8:23, Romans 9:4, Galatians 4:5, Ephesians 1:5. Paul asserts, with good reason, that God promised to sanctify "each man and his neighbor" with his Spirit, leading to the Adoption as Sons, and eventually Eternal Life.

Thus his prayer in Romans 10:1: "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

Yes, Israel is Paul's nation. God was already saving Jewish people as Paul can attest. But God has not yet saved Paul's nation.

And he knows that only the believing "all Israel" remnant will be saved (Romans 9:27).

That's right. At that time, when God removes ungodliness from Jacob, only a remnant will be saved.

Isaiah calls them "survivors." Isaiah 4:2, Isaiah 37:32. Only those who come to Jerusalem, to call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Joel also calls them "survivors>" Joel 2:32

In the book of Romans, chapter 11, the Apostle Paul articulates a significant theological concept: God has chosen to withhold the complete fulfillment of His prophetic promises until the time when the full number of Gentiles, or non-Jewish individuals, comes to faith in Him. This indicates that there is a divine timeline in place, where God’s plan encompasses not just the Jewish people, but also includes a gathering of believers from among the Gentiles, signifying the expansive nature of His grace and salvation.

After that, then God will finally rise up a nation of Jacob's descendants who will come to Jerusalem to pray for God's deliverance and he will respond greatly, sending his son to Jerusalem to fight for his people.

 

[CadyandZoe]

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Whom to believe?

You
or
Peter

Need a hint?

Peter's remark isn't intended to give his readers a full and complete picture of the Day of the Lord. There is more to it than that.