Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is obviously something wrong with it. Your view proposes to ignore all the OT verses that prove the Premillennial view.

That's a lie. I don't ignore any of them, I interpret them differently than you do.

What's lame is your lack of response to the objection. You simply wave off OT passages instead of dealing with them.

That's an absolute lie. I'm not going to waste any more time on you since you have no conscience about lying about me.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Are you unable to answer my question? Questions don't answer questions. Can you just answer my question?

I want to sincerely apologize for not addressing your question in the way you were hoping for. It seems that my attempts to engage in the conversation may not have been as effective as I intended. Rather than focusing on our different styles of communication, which could hinder our progress, I think it would be more beneficial to take a moment to clarify the fundamental concepts we’re discussing. This way, we can ensure that we're both on the same page and continue moving the conversation in a productive direction.

Your question cannot be addressed directly because it stems from a misunderstanding of the underlying concepts. It conflates two important distinctions: first, Paul's identity as a member of his specific cultural or ethnic group, and second, his role as a citizen within the broader framework of his nation-state. Understanding these differences is crucial to providing an accurate and comprehensive response to your inquiry.

In Romans 11, the Apostle Paul tackles two significant themes regarding God's relationship with his people and his nation, addressing them separately to provide clarity. In the first six verses, he reflects on his identity as a member of the Jewish ethnic group. He raises a critical question: Has God completely rejected the Jewish people? Paul emphatically answers this question in the negative, affirming that God has not abandoned his ethnic group. He supports this assertion by referencing his own status as a Jew and indicating that there remains a faithful remnant chosen by grace.

In verses 11 through 16, Paul shifts his focus and explores a deeper concern: the fate of his nation as a whole. While he has already established that God has not rejected the Jewish people on an individual level, the question arises: Has God turned his back on the nation of Israel? Paul seeks to clarify this point, discussing the implications of Israel's spiritual state and God's overarching plan. Through this examination, he emphasizes the enduring relationship between God and his people, highlighting both the consequences of their disobedience and the hope of restoration for the nation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's a lie. I don't ignore any of them, I interpret them differently than you do.

Do you seek to understand what the prophet intended to say. Based on what you have said in this thread, I wonder whether you read the OT with "Amillennial" glasses on.

That's an absolute lie. I'm not going to waste any more time on you since you have no conscience about lying about me.

It's not a lie. I have witnessed this myself. I have presented to you numerous passages from the Old Testament that describe a future state of Zion, emphasizing that the son of David will reign from this sacred location. However, you tend to dismiss these references, contending that mentions of Zion are actually alluding to a "spiritual" interpretation of Zion rather than a physical, tangible place. This distinction seems to affect how we understand the texts and their significance in the context of prophecy and fulfillment.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I disagree. Romans 9 couldn't be clearer. It is demonstrating that salvation is indeed personal and divine and not racial and man-centered (as the Jews thought and as the Dispies think). God chooses who He wishes and hardens who He wishes. Ephesians 1 reinforces this great truth.

I respectfully disagree; that is not the main argument that Paul presents in Romans 9. While it is undoubtedly true that salvation is a personal matter and Paul indeed emphasizes this aspect throughout his writings, the primary focus in Romans 9 is on the promise that God made to His chosen nation, Israel. In this chapter, Paul seeks to address the troubling reality that many of his fellow Israelites have not responded to the Gospel message. He argues that their lack of acceptance does not mean that God's promise to Israel has failed. Rather, Paul clarifies that God's covenant faithfulness remains intact, and he delves into the theological implications of God’s sovereignty, election, and mercy as they pertain to His chosen people. By examining these themes, Paul aims to illustrate that God's plans and purposes transcend human responses and that His promises are fulfilled according to His divine will.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Please. You guys are the game players here, as everyone can see. In one post I took the time to explain my view on several things and you only responded with saying that I finally admitted something without actually addressing anything I said. That's what people do when they're just playing games and not interested in serious discussion.

Gameplay refers to a specific type of interaction in discussions, particularly around contentious topics like the Amil/email debate. In this scenario, an individual, (not talking about you) repeatedly brings up comments and questions related to the debate as if they are genuinely interested in fostering a constructive dialogue. However, upon closer examination, it becomes apparent that their true intention is not to engage in honest conversation. Instead, they exploit these discussions as a platform to belittle others and resort to personal attacks, undermining the spirit of respectful discourse. This approach effectively stifles meaningful engagement and turns the conversation into a one-sided critique rather than a balanced exchange of ideas.

Try to see it from our perspective.

 

[WPM]

this is the funniest post I think I have ever seen.

You, or no Premil, have any rebuttal. It is eye-opening to see you avoiding it like the plague.

 

[WPM]

I respectfully disagree; that is not the main argument that Paul presents in Romans 9. While it is undoubtedly true that salvation is a personal matter and Paul indeed emphasizes this aspect throughout his writings, the primary focus in Romans 9 is on the promise that God made to His chosen nation, Israel. In this chapter, Paul seeks to address the troubling reality that many of his fellow Israelites have not responded to the Gospel message. He argues that their lack of acceptance does not mean that God's promise to Israel has failed. Rather, Paul clarifies that God's covenant faithfulness remains intact, and he delves into the theological implications of God’s sovereignty, election, and mercy as they pertain to His chosen people. By examining these themes, Paul aims to illustrate that God's plans and purposes transcend human responses and that His promises are fulfilled according to His divine will.

Not so! That is butchering God's Word to support a man-centered gospel. You are misinterpreting the text and misrepresenting God. Sad! Arminianists are fighting with the sacred text. They are offended with the idea of a sovereign God who calls the shots.

 

[soberxp]

Are you unable to answer simple questions with simple answers? I asked if you base your belief in future animal sacrifices partly on Ezekiel 45:15-17? Yes or no? It seems that your answer is yes, but how hard is it to just say yes or no?

The sacrifices being for their sake or not is completely besides the point. It talks about them being for reconciliation. Why would they need that or why would God want that when Christ's sacrifice already provided that for them? You are doing nothing to show why future animal sacrifices would be desired by God. Why would He desire them in light of what it says here...

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

You don't seem to understand that Christ's sacrifice accomplishes everything that you think animal sacrifices will accomplish in the future. And, you think that God will reinstate animal sacrifices and offerings despite saying He doesn't want them and takes no pleasure in them.

Habit is sometimes a wrong habit. Habits become customs become cultural symbols.

 

[covenantee]

It's not a lie. I have witnessed this myself. I have presented to you numerous passages from the Old Testament that describe a future state of Zion, emphasizing that the son of David will reign from this sacred location. However, you tend to dismiss these references, contending that mentions of Zion are actually alluding to a "spiritual" interpretation of Zion rather than a physical, tangible place. This distinction seems to affect how we understand the texts and their significance in the context of prophecy and fulfillment.

Premil is mired in an old will and testament which has been replaced by the New Will and Testament of transcendent spiritual realities.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

God has appointed His Son alone as heir of all things. Unbelieving Israel is not an heir. Galatians 4:30-31.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that those who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.

But it is undeniable:

There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Premil is mired in an old will and testament which has been replaced by the New Will and Testament of transcendent spiritual realities.

This isn't true. The Premillennial teaching distinctly affirms the New Covenant, a central theme in Christian eschatology. One of the key differences between Premillennialism and Amillennialism lies in their respective methods of biblical interpretation. Specifically, Premillennialism emphasizes that the New Covenant incorporates a fundamental aspect that is uniquely relevant to the nation of Israel. This understanding suggests that certain promises and prophecies outlined in scripture specifically pertain to Israel's future restoration, a view that sets it apart from Amillennialism, which interprets these texts in a more symbolic or spiritual sense, often viewing the church as the primary inheritor of God's promises. Thus, the Premillennial perspective stresses a literal interpretation of biblical prophecy concerning Israel's role in the unfolding of God's redemptive plan.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so! That is butchering God's Word to support a man-centered gospel. You are misinterpreting the text and misrepresenting God. Sad! Arminianists are fighting with the sacred text. They are offended with the idea of a sovereign God who calls the shots.

I hear your outrage, but your objection lacks reasons and evidence.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You, or no Premil, have any rebuttal. It is eye-opening to see you avoiding it like the plague.

What is eye opening is you have been given tons of rebuttle.

and this is all you have, to lie and say you have seen no rebuttle.

Its your pride my friend. Your pride is your worse enemy.

You can say you disagree with our rebuttle. But when, inspite of the evidence, you say no one has said anything.

then you are just pumping your chest.

and in this case. you are your own worse enemy

 

[WPM]

What is eye opening is you have been given tons of rebuttle.

and this is all you have, to lie and say you have seen no rebuttle.

Its your pride my friend. Your pride is your worse enemy.

You can say you disagree with our rebuttle. But when, inspite of the evidence, you say no one has said anything.

then you are just pumping your chest.

and in this case. you are your own worse enemy

This is typical Premil noise, when they have nothing. Where is your rebuttal? Give us a link.

I will not hold my breath.

 

[covenantee]

This isn't true. The Premillennial teaching distinctly affirms the New Covenant, a central theme in Christian eschatology. One of the key differences between Premillennialism and Amillennialism lies in their respective methods of biblical interpretation. Specifically, Premillennialism emphasizes that the New Covenant incorporates a fundamental aspect that is uniquely relevant to the nation of Israel. This understanding suggests that certain promises and prophecies outlined in scripture specifically pertain to Israel's future restoration, a view that sets it apart from Amillennialism, which interprets these texts in a more symbolic or spiritual sense, often viewing the church as the primary inheritor of God's promises. Thus, the Premillennial perspective stresses a literal interpretation of biblical prophecy concerning Israel's role in the unfolding of God's redemptive plan.

If you have NT Scripture disproving what I've cited and explained, then please cite and explain yours.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is typical Premil noise, when they have nothing. Where is your rebuttal? Give us a link.

I will not hold my breath.

this is typical boast from a proud person.

Go back to your first post. read this whole thread. many have rebutted your so called facts.

anyone. i am done with you. Your to proud.. I will add you with your two brothers to my prayer bin good day

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you have NT Scripture disproving what I've cited and explained, then please cite and explain yours.

I can't remember with whom I shared this so forgive me if you have already heard this.

Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

This verse highlights two significant aspects: the delivery of Israel and the removal of ungodliness from Jacob. It's important to note that the Bible makes a clear distinction between the roles of a deliverer and a savior. In this context, the Apostle Paul emphasizes that God's promises extend beyond merely saving the souls of the people of Israel; He is also committed to delivering them from their adversaries and restoring peace.

 

[covenantee]

I can't remember with whom I shared this so forgive me if you have already heard this.

Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

This verse highlights two significant aspects: the delivery of Israel and the removal of ungodliness from Jacob. It's important to note that the Bible makes a clear distinction between the roles of a deliverer and a savior. In this context, the Apostle Paul emphasizes that God's promises extend beyond merely saving the souls of the people of Israel; He is also committed to delivering them from their adversaries and restoring peace.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

The concept of the "Two" Israels refers to two distinct aspects of Israel: the Israel of the present day and the Israel of the future, which encompasses the descendants of Jacob. In the New Testament, specifically in Romans 11, the Apostle Paul discusses how God has a plan for Israel that includes the eventual removal of unrighteousness from Jacob. This passage emphasizes that, despite the current state of Israel, God remains faithful to His promises and has a future restoration in mind for His chosen people.

Paul speaks about his own nation, Israel, highlighting the idea that, through God's grace, there will be a transformative process whereby the true essence of Israel is redeemed. This belief underlines the hope for not just national identity but spiritual renewal for the descendants of Jacob, affirming a divine purpose that transcends time and speaks to the faithfulness of God to His covenant people.

Paul clarifies that not every descendant of Jacob is considered part of the covenant community that embodies the Israel of promise. However, it is important to note that he does not, contrary to some interpretations, imply that Gentiles are included within this designation of the Israel of promise. This distinction emphasizes that the promise is specifically tied to a certain lineage and spiritual heritage, rather than being broadly extended to all peoples.

 

[covenantee]

The concept of the "Two" Israels refers to two distinct aspects of Israel: the Israel of the present day and the Israel of the future

It refers to believing Israel ("all Israel") and unbelieving Israel ("of Israel"), both of which were existent when Paul wrote, have been existent ever since, and will be existent until Christ returns.

 

[Davidpt]

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


Which Israel do you think this is referring to? Keeping in mind the text says 'restore again' something that couldnn't possibly apply to the church, as in 'restore again the kingdom to the church. Which then implies that the church was in possession of the kingdom at one time, then lost that possession and now needs the kingdom restored to it again. And BTW, restore again seems to imply something was already restored earlier, then taken away eventually, thus needs restored yet again. And if so, that fits the church exactly how?

IOW, make sense of Acts 1:6 for us.