Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

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Scott Downey

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God's love is towards us, John in writing to the saints, which is why you are His saints.

1 John 2
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

Seeing God Through Love​

12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

The Consummation of Love​

17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love [c]Him because He first loved us.

All the 'we' and 'us' words here refer only to the believing saints in Christ, not the unbelieving world.

There is a day of judgment coming, not an age or season. Some have said Judgement is not a single day saying 1000 years is a day and a day is a thousand years to God, but that was written by Peter to refute the scoffers who were saying where is the promise of His coming.

He returns on the last day, the resurrection is when He returns, and after that is the judgment on the last day. Books have been written with the works of your life in the body, all the evidence is already recorded. No need for cross examination, we got a righteous judge of all the earth who does not need an age of time to judge the world in righteousness. The unrighteous go into the fire, while the righteous, justified by faith enter into His eternal kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world having peace, love, mercy, and grace with God and Christ.
 

Eternally Grateful

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God's love is towards us, John in writing to the saints, which is why you are His saints.

1 John 2
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

Seeing God Through Love​

12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

The Consummation of Love​

17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love [c]Him because He first loved us.

All the 'we' and 'us' words here refer only to the believing saints in Christ, not the unbelieving world.

There is a day of judgment coming, not an age or season. Some have said Judgement is not a single day saying 1000 years is a day and a day is a thousand years to God, but that was written by Peter to refute the scoffers who were saying where is the promise of His coming.

He returns on the last day, the resurrection is when He returns, and after that is the judgment on the last day. Books have been written with the works of your life in the body, all the evidence is already recorded. No need for cross examination, we got a righteous judge of all the earth who does not need an age of time to judge the world in righteousness. The unrighteous go into the fire, while the righteous, justified by faith enter into His eternal kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world having peace, love, mercy, and grace with God and Christ.
Yes very true

But God also made a covenant with the nation of Israel and gave them a gift.

the gifts and calling are irrevocable
 
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covenantee

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Paul does not argue for the existence of multiple Israels, as you might be suggesting. Rather, his focus is on the singular promise made by God to the nation of Israel regarding their inheritance of eternal life as a unified people. Within this framework, Paul presents a nuanced argument: not all descendants of Jacob, the patriarch of Israel, will necessarily be part of what he refers to as the Israel of Promise. This distinction highlights the idea that inclusion in this divine promise is not automatic based solely on lineage, but rather involves a deeper spiritual significance and relationship with God. Thus, Paul's discourse invites a deeper examination of faith and the criteria for being considered part of God's promised people.

Throughout the course of Jesus' earthly ministry, he did not fully embrace or complete his role as the deliverer of Israel as many anticipated. This role remains unfulfilled, awaiting a future time ordained by God when He will decisively remove ungodliness from Jacob, the ancestral name for Israel. According to biblical prophecy, Jesus is expected to return, during which he will conquer and subdue the enemies of Israel, restoring the nation to a place of peace and security. Under his reign, Israel will thrive and live in dedicated service to God, free from fear and oppression, fully realizing the promises made to them. In this future era, not only will Israel be delivered from its adversaries, but it will also stand as a testament to the faithfulness of God amidst the nations.

At that time, all of Jacob's descendants will follow and believe in Jesus Christ as both Lord and Savior.
Unsurprisingly, you haven't cited a single Scripture disproving what I've cited.

You can't understand it.

So just leave it for those who can. :laughing:
 

WPM

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Op Note

After all this time, we do not have one single Premil rebuttal of the Op. That is because it is watertight. That is because it forbids Premil. Compare this to the non-evidential threads Premils start that refute nothing but their own reasoning.
 

CadyandZoe

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Good set of scripture resources about our individual calling and election. And it is personal not national or corporate.
We are individually called by the Lord to be His saints. And it's for those God has chosen. We did not love God, God loved us first, then we loved God.
Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord, by traveling to Jerusalem during that time will be personally called by God.
 

CadyandZoe

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Unsurprisingly, you haven't cited a single Scripture disproving what I've cited.
What you have stated seems quite unusual to me. When an individual references scripture to support their beliefs, it is crucial to ensure that the interpretation they are providing is accurate and aligns with the original context of the texts. If the interpretation appears to be incorrect or misguided, it is only logical that a response would emerge, presenting an alternative understanding of the same scripture. This rebuttal aims to clarify the intended message and offer a different perspective that reflects a more authentic interpretation of the text in question.

Given Paul's implied question, your interpretation fails to understand his answer. My interpretation does a better job of understanding his answer.
 

CadyandZoe

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Op Note

After all this time, we do not have one single Premil rebuttal of the Op. That is because it is watertight. That is because it forbids Premil. Compare this to the non-evidential threads Premils start that refute nothing but their own reasoning.
The OP doesn't address the Topic.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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We are discussing the fulfillment of prophecies, whether they should be taken literally or figuratively.
Uh huh. So, why did you start talking about something else instead?

At the core of Amillennialism is the claim that all the Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled.
No one said this. How can we have a genuine discussion about this topic when you misrepresent Amillennialism like this?

Your nuanced perspective, which suggests that only the prophecies concerning Jesus are fulfilled, does not adequately address this objection.
LOL! Yes, it does. It's a HUGE difference to say that the propehcies which specifically mention the Messiah are fulfilled and saying that all OT prophecies are fulfilled.

Poor little ol' you.
LOL. That's how I think of you. It's incredibly sad how little discernment you have because of your complete reliance on your own flawed intellect.

Why is it your habit to degrade others with whom you disagree? Is your argument that weak?
Says the guy who just said "Poor little ol' you". When someone lies about what I believe, I am going to point that out. If you think it degrades you to point out that you lied about something, so be it.

Jesus did not claim that all the prophecies in the Old Testament were fulfilled during His lifetime.
Right. And I didn't say He did. I'm not going to read any further since you have decided to purposely misrepresent what I believe which does not allow for an honest discussion.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Keep on Going bud
Hey, bud, why don't you address the scripture that he did post instead of ignoring it and telling him to read further?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, (roman Gentile believers, or the unnatural branches) that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in

This blindness in part Paul spoke of in the first part of the chapter is just termporary. I will continue until a specific time. That time is the time of the fullness of the gentile
It was always temporary, but not in the way you think. Are you aware that some of those who were blinded in Paul's time ended up being saved? The blindness is much more temporary than you think.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
 
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covenantee

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What you have stated seems quite unusual to me. When an individual references scripture to support their beliefs, it is crucial to ensure that the interpretation they are providing is accurate and aligns with the original context of the texts. If the interpretation appears to be incorrect or misguided, it is only logical that a response would emerge, presenting an alternative understanding of the same scripture. This rebuttal aims to clarify the intended message and offer a different perspective that reflects a more authentic interpretation of the text in question.

Given Paul's implied question, your interpretation fails to understand his answer. My interpretation does a better job of understanding his answer.
Just leave whatever you can't understand for those who can.
 

CadyandZoe

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No one said this. How can we have a genuine discussion about this topic when you misrepresent Amillennialism like this?

LOL! Yes, it does. It's a HUGE difference to say that the propehcies which specifically mention the Messiah are fulfilled and saying that all OT prophecies are fulfilled.
I agree that it makes a big difference, which is why I mentioned it. If you agree with me that some OT prophecies have not yet been fulfilled, then we may possibly have common ground for a discussion. So, instead of telling you what you believe, let me ask you: Do you hold that the Amillennial position often relies on a non-literal, or symbolic, interpretation of certain Old Testament prophecies, particularly those that speak of the restoration of Israel, the kingdom of God, and future blessings?

Do you hold that the Amillennial position argues that many Old Testament promises, such as those given to Israel about land, kingdom, and blessing, are fulfilled in Christ and the Church?

  • Do you, for instance, believe that OT promises concerning the Land are seen as pointing to the New Heavens and the New Earth?
  • Do you interpret the kingdom of David as fulfilled in the spiritual reign of Christ?
  • Do you believe that God's promises to Israel find their ultimate fulfillment in the people of God, which includes both Jews and Gentiles in the church?

The references found in the Old Testament regarding the concepts of the kingdom, the blessings bestowed upon the people, the Promised Land, and the deliverance of Israel do not specifically indicate or imply a connection to the Messiah. These passages primarily address the historical and spiritual aspects of Israel's identity and relationship with God rather than foreshadowing or directly relating to a future messianic figure.

It seems that we can find common ground in recognizing that various elements do indeed relate to the concept of the Messiah as depicted in the New Testament. However, our perspectives diverge significantly when it comes to the Amillennial interpretation. You assert that because Jesus Christ is the sovereign leader of a spiritual kingdom, the prophecies found in the Old Testament should be understood in a way that is typological, allegorical, or "spiritual." I, on the other hand, hold a different view regarding the reading and significance of these prophecies, suggesting that a more literal or traditional interpretation may better align with their original intent and meaning. This fundamental disagreement shapes our understanding of the relationship between the Testaments and the prophetic insights offered therein.

The New Testament not only talks about the Spiritual Kingdom of Jesus Christ, it also talks about Jesus' role as the Deliverer of Israel.

From a Premillennial perspective, Jesus is understood as the future, literal Deliverer of Israel, fulfilling Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah's role in restoring God's chosen nation. Here's a summary of His role:

1. Messiah and King: Premillennialists believe that Jesus will physically return to earth at His second coming to establish a literal, thousand-year reign (the millennium). During this reign, He will fulfill the promises made to Israel, including the restoration of their kingdom and the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.

2. Restoration of Israel: Jesus will gather the Jewish people from dispersion, bringing them back to their land as prophesied in passages like Ezekiel 37. He will reign as their King, providing peace, justice, and blessing, and Israel will become a central nation in His millennial kingdom.

3. Salvation of Israel: According to this view, a future remnant of Israel will turn to Jesus as their Messiah (Romans 11:26-27). At His return, they will recognize Him as the one they have pierced (Zechariah 12:10), resulting in their national repentance and restoration to God.

4. Defeat of Israel's enemies: Jesus will deliver Israel from her adversaries, as depicted in prophetic passages like Zechariah 14. He will establish His authority over the nations, bringing an end to their oppression of Israel.

In this framework, Jesus' role as the Deliverer is central to God's redemptive plan for both Israel and the world, showcasing His faithfulness to His covenant promises.
 

CadyandZoe

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Who do you think Paul was saying were enemies of the gospel exactly?
The People of Israel. Paul contended that despite the fact that Israel was responsible for the death of the Messiah, it is essential to recognize that God has not turned away from His chosen people. He emphasized that the divine gifts and callings bestowed upon Israel—such as the promise of eternal life—remain irrevocable. This holds true even in light of the reality that, at that particular moment in time, many in Israel were acting as adversaries to the message of the Gospel. Paul's argument underscores the enduring nature of God's faithfulness to His covenant with Israel, regardless of their present circumstances or actions.
 

KUWN

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Good set of scripture resources about our individual calling and election. And it is personal not national or corporate.
We are individually called by the Lord to be His saints. And it's for those God has chosen. We did not love God, God loved us first, then we loved God.
I was challenged some time ago to do a study on election, which I had already done. But, during that study, I could not find one verse in the OT that used the term election for salvation. In every instance, election is to service, not salvation.

So, I continued in the NT. I realized Judas was chosen/elected as an unbeliever and that the NT was the same as the OT. Election deals with Sanctification, being called to service for God. Election takes place by the Baptism of the HS (See Eph 1.4).

Positional Truth explained both PreDestination and Election.

Look in Eph 1.4. The Plan is predetermined, not the individuals. Note the phrase "in Christ." That's the doctrine of Positional Truth. In fact, in one way, nobody is elect until the person is IN CHRIST.
 

Scott Downey

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I was challenged some time ago to do a study on election, which I had already done. But, during that study, I could not find one verse in the OT that used the term election for salvation. In every instance, election is to service, not salvation.

So, I continued in the NT. I realized Judas was chosen/elected as an unbeliever and that the NT was the same as the OT. Election deals with Sanctification, being called to service for God. Election takes place by the Baptism of the HS (See Eph 1.4).

Positional Truth explained both PreDestination and Election.

Look in Eph 1.4. The Plan is predetermined, not the individuals. Note the phrase "in Christ." That's the doctrine of Positional Truth. In fact, in one way, nobody is elect until the person is IN CHRIST.
Judas though was elected to be the betrayer!
 

WPM

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I was challenged some time ago to do a study on election, which I had already done. But, during that study, I could not find one verse in the OT that used the term election for salvation. In every instance, election is to service, not salvation.

So, I continued in the NT. I realized Judas was chosen/elected as an unbeliever and that the NT was the same as the OT. Election deals with Sanctification, being called to service for God. Election takes place by the Baptism of the HS (See Eph 1.4).

Positional Truth explained both PreDestination and Election.

Look in Eph 1.4. The Plan is predetermined, not the individuals. Note the phrase "in Christ." That's the doctrine of Positional Truth. In fact, in one way, nobody is elect until the person is IN CHRIST.

This is fake news. You didn't want to see what it says. You need to change your theological glasses. Election is individual, divine and irreversible.

So do you deny the testimonies of these following Bible writers?

Isaac and Jacob

Romans 9:6-14 says, “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.”

Isaac was chosen as the seed of promise before he was even born.

Jacob was also chosen as the seed of promise before he was even born.


Samson

The angel of the LORD appeared unto Samson’s mother and promised, in Judges 13:5-7, “For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no rasor shall come on his head: the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name: But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.”

Judges 16:17 records, where Samson informs Delilah, “There hath not come a rasor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, a nd I shall become weak, and be like any other man.”

David


David testified in Psalm 22:9-10, “thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.”

Isaiah

Isaiah testified in Isaiah 49:5,
“And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him,.”

Jeremiah

Jeremiah 1:4-5 proclaimed,
“Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and Before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”


Elisabeth

Luke 1:41: when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.”

Zacharias

Luke 1:67: “Zacharias was filled with the HolyGhost, and prophesied.”

John the Baptist

Luke 1:13-17 says, “the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

Paul the Apostle

Paul said in Galatians 1:15-16, “It pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen.”
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I agree that it makes a big difference, which is why I mentioned it. If you agree with me that some OT prophecies have not yet been fulfilled, then we may possibly have common ground for a discussion.
Goodness sakes. When did I say that I didn't believe that some OT prophecies have not yet been fulfilled? Never. You make it impossible to have a good discussion because you don't pay close enough attention to what I say and you end up misrepresenting what I believe and arguing with a straw man instead of me. I have to take so much time correcting your misrepresentations of my view instead of just discussing the scriptures like we should be doing.

So, instead of telling you what you believe, let me ask you:
So, you have finally decided to stop trying to tell me what I believe? LOL.

Do you hold that the Amillennial position often relies on a non-literal, or symbolic, interpretation of certain Old Testament prophecies, particularly those that speak of the restoration of Israel, the kingdom of God, and future blessings?
Yep. Just like the NT authors did. Key word there is "often". Not all the time, of course. For example, we certainly don't deny that Jesus literally fulfilled Zechariah 9:9, for example, by literally riding into Jerusalem on a donkey.

Do you hold that the Amillennial position argues that many Old Testament promises, such as those given to Israel about land, kingdom, and blessing, are fulfilled in Christ and the Church?
Of course, because that is what the NT authors teach. You may have seen the many times we have referenced passages like Galatians 3:16-29 and Ephesians 3:1-6 which prove this?

  • Do you, for instance, believe that OT promises concerning the Land are seen as pointing to the New Heavens and the New Earth?
  • Do you interpret the kingdom of David as fulfilled in the spiritual reign of Christ?
  • Do you believe that God's promises to Israel find their ultimate fulfillment in the people of God, which includes both Jews and Gentiles in the church?
The answer is yes to all of those because of what is explicitly taught in the New Testament. Why you don't accept those NT scriptures is something I'll never understand.

The references found in the Old Testament regarding the concepts of the kingdom, the blessings bestowed upon the people, the Promised Land, and the deliverance of Israel do not specifically indicate or imply a connection to the Messiah. These passages primarily address the historical and spiritual aspects of Israel's identity and relationship with God rather than foreshadowing or directly relating to a future messianic figure.
That's what you might think without having the New Testament, but the New Testament says otherwise.

It seems that we can find common ground in recognizing that various elements do indeed relate to the concept of the Messiah as depicted in the New Testament.
Okay.

However, our perspectives diverge significantly when it comes to the Amillennial interpretation.
Of course.

You assert that because Jesus Christ is the sovereign leader of a spiritual kingdom, the prophecies found in the Old Testament should be understood in a way that is typological, allegorical, or "spiritual."
Right, because that is what the NT authors teach. Not all OT prophecies should be understood in that way, of course. I shouldn't have to say that, but since you like to make blanket statements about what Amils believe, it becomes necessary.

I, on the other hand, hold a different view regarding the reading and significance of these prophecies, suggesting that a more literal or traditional interpretation may better align with their original intent and meaning. This fundamental disagreement shapes our understanding of the relationship between the Testaments and the prophetic insights offered therein.
In my opinion that view requires ignoring what is taught in the New Testament.

The New Testament not only talks about the Spiritual Kingdom of Jesus Christ, it also talks about Jesus' role as the Deliverer of Israel.
Yes, and it explains that the way He delivered Israel is by way of sacrificing Himself and shedding His blood for their sins. To think that He needs to do anything beyond that to deliver them shows an unbelievable lack of understanding of New Testament teaching.

From a Premillennial perspective, Jesus is understood as the future, literal Deliverer of Israel, fulfilling Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah's role in restoring God's chosen nation. Here's a summary of His role:

1. Messiah and King: Premillennialists believe that Jesus will physically return to earth at His second coming to establish a literal, thousand-year reign (the millennium). During this reign, He will fulfill the promises made to Israel, including the restoration of their kingdom and the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.

2. Restoration of Israel: Jesus will gather the Jewish people from dispersion, bringing them back to their land as prophesied in passages like Ezekiel 37. He will reign as their King, providing peace, justice, and blessing, and Israel will become a central nation in His millennial kingdom.

3. Salvation of Israel: According to this view, a future remnant of Israel will turn to Jesus as their Messiah (Romans 11:26-27). At His return, they will recognize Him as the one they have pierced (Zechariah 12:10), resulting in their national repentance and restoration to God.

4. Defeat of Israel's enemies: Jesus will deliver Israel from her adversaries, as depicted in prophetic passages like Zechariah 14. He will establish His authority over the nations, bringing an end to their oppression of Israel.

In this framework, Jesus' role as the Deliverer is central to God's redemptive plan for both Israel and the world, showcasing His faithfulness to His covenant promises.
I, of course, disagree with all of that, as you already know. Instead of taking the time to address all of that as I have already done many times before, I'll just ask why you do not accept Jesus's understanding of Zechariah 12:10, as He gave here....

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Jesus related Zechariah 12:10 to His first coming, not His second coming. Why don't you?
 
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