Gog and Magog and The Flaming Fire

[Earburner]

Meaning that "the true Tree" [of Life] is Jesus, who is the Chief Corner stone [of the 3rd Temple], [aka the members of] "the body of Christ", "the Israel of God".
Ref. John 2:19-21; 1 Peter 2:6.

Gal. 6
[15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
[16] And as many as [each] walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

BTW, I should add that the present nation of Israel is NOT the Israel of God.

 

[Earburner]

The thing about delusions, is that the deluded person thinks they cannot be wrong.
Those whose beliefs are challenged, display defensive behaviour, rejecting all new arguments, without properly assessing them with due diligence.
Soon; all will be revealed and understanding will be given to those who kept strong in their faith, when the Prophesied disaster strikes.

Yes! When Jesus is revealed from heaven IN FLAMING [fiery] FIRE.... 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes! When Jesus is revealed from heaven IN FLAMING [fiery] FIRE.... 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

Christ comes in that fire, he does not use it as a weapon.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It's about the speed because lightning was the fastest thing man knew of in those days. This essentially is "light speed" and is what this verse is talking about:

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Barnes:

In flaming fire - This is a circumstance which is not noticed in the account of his appearing in the parallel place in 1Th_4:16. The object of the apostle here seems to be to represent him as coming amidst vivid flashes of lightning. He is commonly described as coming in clouds, and to that common description there is here added the image of incessant lightnings, as if the whole heavens were illuminated with a continued blaze.

 

[Verily]

Christ comes in that fire, he does not use it as a weapon.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It's about the speed because lightning was the fastest thing man knew of in those days. This essentially is "light speed" and is what this verse is talking about:

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Barnes:

In flaming fire - This is a circumstance which is not noticed in the account of his appearing in the parallel place in 1Th_4:16. The object of the apostle here seems to be to represent him as coming amidst vivid flashes of lightning. He is commonly described as coming in clouds, and to that common description there is here added the image of incessant lightnings, as if the whole heavens were illuminated with a continued blaze.

Ewq1938 doesn't the wording ressemble the below a little?

For example, it says here

Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers (( a )) flaming fire

John wrote to the angel of one of the churches to whom he said

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto (( thee )) quickly,
and will fight against (( them )) with the sword of my mouth.

So he says he would come unto (( thee )) to fight (( against them )) whereas similarly it says

2Thes 1:8 IN flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Since both the Lord with his angels in a flaming fire are spoken of

2 Thes 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I am not saying that this is "it" its the wording. Him coming IN such a flame of fire, what his ministers are called, and just something as simple as something Paul himself said, when he said "And having IN a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. Similary , IN flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That was probably a "THUD" just threw this out there to see if anything sticks

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christ comes in that fire, he does not use it as a weapon.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It's about the speed because lightning was the fastest thing man knew of in those days. This essentially is "light speed" and is what this verse is talking about:

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Barnes:

In flaming fire - This is a circumstance which is not noticed in the account of his appearing in the parallel place in 1Th_4:16. The object of the apostle here seems to be to represent him as coming amidst vivid flashes of lightning. He is commonly described as coming in clouds, and to that common description there is here added the image of incessant lightnings, as if the whole heavens were illuminated with a continued blaze.

No. Him coming "in flaming fire" has nothing to do with lightning. That phrase is not related to Him coming quickly like lightning flashes from east to west. Him coming in flaming fire is talking about this...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[ewq1938]

Ewq1938 doesn't the wording ressemble the below a little?

For example, it says here

Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers (( a )) flaming fire

John wrote to the angel of one of the churches to whom he said

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto (( thee )) quickly,
and will fight against (( them )) with the sword of my mouth.

So he says he would come unto (( thee )) to fight (( against them )) whereas similarly it says

2Thes 1:8 IN flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Since both the Lord with his angels in a flaming fire are spoken of

2 Thes 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I am not saying that this is "it" its the wording. Him coming IN such a flame of fire, what his ministers are called, and just something as simple as something Paul himself said, when he said "And having IN a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. Similary , IN flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That was probably a "THUD" just threw this out there to see if anything sticks

The "in flaming fire" is the method of return, very fast and in a flash or multiple flashes of lighting. The day is supposed to be dark, so this event will stand out. Never is this fire/lightning used as a weapon though. It enables the weapon of vengeance, the symbolic sword of his mouth, as seen in Rev 19.

Ministers being a flaming fire isn't related to Christ's bright and sudden return. Either way, still not a reference to a fire/lightning weapon harming or killing anyone as some believe.

 

[Verily]

The "in flaming fire" is the method of return, very fast and in a flash or multiple flashes of lighting.

It does say quickly

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto (( thee )) quickly,
and will fight against (( them )) with the sword of my mouth.

The day is supposed to be dark, so this event will stand out. Never is this fire/lightning used as a weapon though. It enables the weapon of vengeance, the symbolic sword of his mouth, as seen in Rev 19.

Ministers being a flaming fire isn't related to Christ's bright and sudden return. Either way, still not a reference to a fire/lightning weapon harming or killing anyone as some believe.

I didnt see it as a harming or killing anyone even in the above

Written out here

2 Thes 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thes 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thes 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

He comes to be glorified in them at the same time correct?

 

[ewq1938]

It does say quickly

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto (( thee )) quickly,
and will fight against (( them )) with the sword of my mouth.



I didnt see it as a harming or killing anyone even in the above

Written out here

2 Thes 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thes 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thes 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

He comes to be glorified in them at the same time correct?

No, if this is chronological then the "shall be punished" ( in the Greek is written in the future tense) which is future to the verb in "taking vengeance" which is present tense meaning the events of verse 9 do not happen during the events of verse 8. Thus, I believe the events of verse 10 happen during the timeframe of verse 9. So verse ten is Christ coming/arriving to the place where the everlasting destruction happens, not a reference to the second coming which is from heaven to Earth. The GWTJ is not held in heaven or on the Earth so after the second coming, Christ " has an unrelated "coming" to the GWTJ location.

 

[Verily]

No, if this is chronological then the "shall be punished" in the Greek is written in the future tense which is future to the verb in "taking vengeance" which is present tense meaning the events of verse 9 do not happen during the events of verse 8. Thus, I believe the events of verse 10 happen during the timeframe of verse 9. So verse ten is Christ coming/arriving to the place where the everlasting destruction happens, not a reference to the second coming which is from heaven to Earth. The GWTJ is not held in heaven or on the Earth so after the second coming, Christ " has an unrelated "coming" to the GWTJ location.

Thanks ewq1938

 

[Earburner]

No. Him coming "in flaming fire" has nothing to do with lightning. That phrase is not related to Him coming quickly like lightning flashes from east to west. Him coming in flaming fire is talking about this...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

I agree!! When one reads the Strongs Concordance, the Greek
word for "flaming fire" in 2 Thes. 1:7 is meaning fiery fire.

 

[Douggg]

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It's about the speed because lightning was the fastest thing man knew of in those days. This essentially is "light speed" and is what this verse is talking about:

It is not talking about speed, but as evident as when lightning is seen in the sky.

Take a look at the previous verse...

Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

.... verse 27 means Jesus's second coming will be as evident as when lightning is seen in the sky. He will not return secretly to some secret place out in the desert or some hidden room that anyone should go looking for Him. i.e. don't fall for any rumors.

 

[Earburner]

No, if this is chronological then the "shall be punished" ( in the Greek is written in the future tense) which is future to the verb in "taking vengeance" which is present tense meaning the events of verse 9 do not happen during the events of verse 8. Thus, I believe the events of verse 10 happen during the timeframe of verse 9. So verse ten is Christ coming/arriving to the place where the everlasting destruction happens, not a reference to the second coming which is from heaven to Earth. The GWTJ is not held in heaven or on the Earth so after the second coming, Christ " has an unrelated "coming" to the GWTJ location.

As you say: "Christ arrives to the place where everlasting destruction happens", I agree.
Him being revealed from heaven will be His sudden second coming as lightning, in flaming fire.
Nowhere in the NT does it ever say that Jesus touches the earth.
The evidence of that is, all who are "born again" shall be resurrected/changed into His likeness and shall meet Him IN THE AIR. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thes. 4:17

The GWTJ is to be understood metaphorically and not literally, as if one might think that it takes place in an off world situation, being in some sort of mystical place.
In all actuality, the GWTJudgment was pronounced by Jesus in John 3:18, and is to each person a reality upon their mortal death.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Also: Heb. 9
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this [their death] the judgment, [which is either they are not condemned, or they are condemned already].

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, if this is chronological then the "shall be punished" ( in the Greek is written in the future tense) which is future to the verb in "taking vengeance" which is present tense meaning the events of verse 9 do not happen during the events of verse 8. Thus, I believe the events of verse 10 happen during the timeframe of verse 9. So verse ten is Christ coming/arriving to the place where the everlasting destruction happens, not a reference to the second coming which is from heaven to Earth. The GWTJ is not held in heaven or on the Earth so after the second coming, Christ " has an unrelated "coming" to the GWTJ location.

The part in 2 Thess 1:7-8 that talks about Him coming to take vengeance on those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel refers to Jesus physically destroying His enemies when He comes. The punishment referenced in verse 9 refers to eternal punishment that will soon follow that at the judgment. We can see from Matthew 25:31-46 that this punishment will involve them being cast "into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". That is referring to the lake of fire where they will experience "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thess 1:9).

Verse 10 is a reference to His second coming itself and not the punishment at the judgment that follows and should be compared to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. When else except at His second coming when we are caught up to Him in the air will it be true that "he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe...in that day"? The same day He comes to take vengeance on His enemies alive on the earth is the same day He gathers us to Himself and also will be when He punishes all of His enemies from all-time and separates them from His presence forever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is not talking about speed, but as evident as when lightning is seen in the sky.

Take a look at the previous verse...

Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

.... verse 27 means Jesus's second coming will be as evident as when lightning is seen in the sky. He will not return secretly to some secret place out in the desert or some hidden room that anyone should go looking for Him. i.e. don't fall for any rumors.

It refers both to the unmistakable nature of His coming and to the speed of His coming. He said Himself, "behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Rev 22:12). Preterists think He is talking about coming soon there, but He is talking about coming quickly (speedily) once it is time for Him to come. It will happen so quickly, that no one will even have time to react. His coming will bring "sudden destruction" from which His enemies "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

 

[Earburner]

The part in 2 Thess 1:7-8 that talks about Him coming to take vengeance on those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel refers to Jesus physically destroying His enemies when He comes. The punishment referenced in verse 9 refers to eternal punishment that will soon follow that at the judgment. We can see from Matthew 25:31-46 that this punishment will involve them being cast "into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". That is referring to the lake of fire where they will experience "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thess 1:9).

Verse 10 is a reference to His second coming itself and not the punishment at the judgment that follows and should be compared to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. When else except at His second coming when we are caught up to Him in the air will it be true that "he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe...in that day"? The same day He comes to take vengeance on His enemies alive on the earth is the same day He gathers us to Himself and also will be when He punishes all of His enemies from all-time and separates them from His presence forever.

Yes, KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10, is a simultaneous event!!
Jesus makes it very clear about That Day in KJV Luke 17:28-30.
Just as it was for Lot and is escape, just before the destruction of Sodom.
It all took place within 24 hours, of which even Abraham was an eye witness to it.
Gen. 19:15-28

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10, is a simultaneous event!!
Jesus makes it very clear about That Day in KJV Luke 17:28-30.
Just as it was for Lot and is escape, just before the destruction of Sodom.
It all took place within 24 hours, of which even Abraham was an eye witness to it.
Gen. 19:15-28

Right. Regarding that event in Sodom in Lot's day, Jesus said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." (Luke 17:30). Which means just as Sodom was destroyed the same day Lot went out of Sodom, Christ's enemies will all be destroyed the same day we are gathered and caught up to meet Christ in the air (1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10).

 

[TribulationSigns]

It is not talking about speed, but as evident as when lightning is seen in the sky.

Take a look at the previous verse...

Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

.... verse 27 means Jesus's second coming will be as evident as when lightning is seen in the sky. He will not return secretly to some secret place out in the desert or some hidden room that anyone should go looking for Him. i.e. don't fall for any rumors.

Mat 24:23-28
(23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(25) Behold, I have told you before.
(26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

You need to understand that Matthew 24 prophesied about the New Testament congregation of Israel, the Church where the false prophets and christs can be found all over the world. Not about national Israel in the Middle East. It is talking about "all" church, not just the "unfaithful churches". Because all churches at this time will be unfaithful in God's eyes. That's one of the points of contention. I believe all churches is falling today. It's the point that Christ was making in declaring:

John 9:4

• "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work."

Matthew 24:23-24

• "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
• For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

It is the hour of darkness, where there are no faithful churches. Even though (as the harlot) they "appear" faithful when looked at superficially. They are hiding something! Because Christ does not come in secret, hidden behind doctrines of devils, so-called, non-essentials, works doctrines, false teachings, and compromises. The point is, it will be extremely difficult to discern that the church has fallen. Even for the Elect! Yet, ultimately, they will come out because the Spirit commands it. Yes, many do not understand these prophesies completely, but that doesn't make them false prophets or agents of the devil.

I don't think you really understand the nature of the loosing of Satan, his power, this killing, or the great tribulation. Or you are not listening. There will be a scarcity of truth, and the extent of the apostasy will be massive. There will be no Revival, there will be no Reformation, there will be no Reorganization, and if Christ didn't come soon afterward, there wouldn't even be any flesh left on earth to be saved. That is how bad it will get!
So bad that people will tell us they have Christ in their church. Believe it or not because in God's eyes, the church is already a desert - a dry place without a Gospel water! It is a famine of hearing the Word of God, not a great bounty. A deception so great that the gospel is being pinched off, not so preached that it is saving millions. Not at all! it is a time of apostasy, departing from the faith, and false teachers. This will be no revival, and that is a desolation. And Christ is hidden if you don't see Him in their church, don't go there.

Have you listen to what Christ tell "US" the nature of these who come to deceive is? First, false prophets, false christs, coming to DECEIVE. And what does Jesus say is their method of deception? They come with Signs and wonders to deceive. Their doctrine will sound so good that it almost could deceive the Elect! it is the same signs and wonders in 2nd Thessalonians 2:2 where God warns the church about this coming apostasy of those in league with Satan coming with all signs and lying wonders. It is a warning to the CHURCH, not national Israel. Becasue we will be here! We need to know that Satan comes as a messenger of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness, like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, etc. so we will not be deceived or buying their silly books.
None of your precious teachers or the Dispensational authors have explained "coherently" now Jesus is talking to the church in Matthew 24, telling them (warning us) about this coming time and how to endure to the end so that they will be saved, and yet they teach we will not even be here at this time of Great Tribulation. It cannot be talking only to the Jews. The Lord is obviously talking to the CHURCH, and so why would He be warning those who He is going to take out of the world before this happens, to watch for it and endure?! It makes no sense because it is NOT true.

Matthew 24:9

• "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake".

That "for Christ's name sake!" Those who take the name of Christ are the body of Christ, the church, and their names are Christians! There are not two salvation programs, there is only one body of Christ. How then is the Christians still here and being persecuted for His name sake, and yet people continue to insist that this is not true and claim they've been raptured because the Lord doesn't want His people going through the "wrath"? Who then are these people if not the lord's people, and how then are they going through this for His namesake? Again, it makes no sense.

Inconsistency is the hallmark of error. And this isn't the only place God warns the church about this, so it's not subject to claims of it being an obscure reference, or just to the Jews. We will be here during the Tribulation, but "ONLY" those who have strength in Christ will endure to the end and be saved. The others (those not TRUSTING in the authority of His word) will be deceived and marked of the beast! behold, He has told us before.

 

[Douggg]

You need to understand that Matthew 24 prophesied about the New Testament congregation of Israel, the Church where the false prophets and christs can be found all over the world. Not about national Israel in the Middle East.

Where does Jesus return to in Zechariah 14 ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Where does Jesus return to in Zechariah 14 ?

I told you many times. Zechariah 14 is not about the Second Coming but the fall of the Old Testament congregation of Israel where the believing Jews fled and continued into the New Testament congregation of Israel keeping the feast of tabernacles during the Millennial Kingdom. Selah!

 

[ewq1938]

Nowhere in the NT does it ever say that Jesus touches the earth.

But he is at the Earth, not in heaven even if he floats the entire time. Nowhere in the NT does it say Christ ever returns to heaven after returning.

The GWTJ is to be understood metaphorically and not literally, as if one might think that it takes place in an off world situation, being in some sort of mystical place.

It is held at an unknown place, not on the Earth or in heaven. It is a literal judgment with God and a throne and angels etc.

In all actuality, the GWTJudgment was pronounced by Jesus in John 3:18, and is to each person a reality upon their mortal death.

False. The GWTJ does not occur at death. They can be pronounced condemned because that's what will end up[ happening because God can see teh future if he wishes. That doesn't change that these same people will be resurrected LITERASLLY and LITERALLY stand before God on the throne and be LITERALLY and officially judged and sentenced.