Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[Timtofly]

I’m not proposing the “rest of the dead” living not again till the thousand years are finished is a resurrection. What I’m proposing is that the “rest of the dead” is Israel that is blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. No physical resurrection is needed for the blindness to be lifted from Israel.

I understand that you have switched from the end of the millennium (Amil) to the beginning of the millennium (Preterists).

Both are wrong, because the millennium has not started.

Give one verse from Scripture that the Cross ushered in the thousand years found in Revelation 20.

Show me in reality where the LOF currently exists for starters. The beast and the false prophet according to John in Revelation have been in this LOF during this thousand years you claim has already happened.

No verse states they are cast in after the thousand years. No verse claims they are part of Satan's little season, after the thousand years.

The LOF is always in conjunction with the Second Coming, whether one is Amil or Premil. But Preterists cannot give us where any human can prove the LOF has been in existence prior to the Second Coming.

There is a thousand years between a physical resurrection, and your point this is talking about Israel, now dressed as the church cannot work. The disciples and apostles were not beheaded spiritually nor physically, so no one fits that description many claim has happened at the start of this alleged millennium.

Revelation 20 is not talking about an ongoing conversion out of death into life. And you are very confused on how people are deceived at the end.

 

[Timtofly]

Although both happen at virtually the same time, you do have a point.

Those alive on the earth that change from dead flesh to God's flesh, is a resurrection? Enoch was translated, not resurrected.

No one comes out of the dust until after the thousand years. No verse says those beheaded were buried. No verse says they get the same beheaded body back.

The first resurrection is not "coming out of the dust", because Daniel 12 is still a thousand years, later. Only the dead in sheol, come out of the dust, and those in the sea. No one has been placed in death, yet, as death only starts just prior to the Second Coming. When death and the earth is baptized in fire that is the start of the LOF. Those beheaded in Revelation 20, are beheaded after the Second Coming, and death and the LOF are already in existence. Revelation 20:4 is not about the Second Coming at all. The first resurrection can apply to Lazarus, who incidentally came out of the dust, and left Abraham's bosom, days before the Cross. Lazarus is already an example of the first resurrection. No one in Christ comes out of the dust, as they never enter the dust, like the OT redeemed did, waiting in Abraham's bosom. Abraham's bosom has already been emptied, and the rest of the dead have been waiting for almost two thousand years. The rest of the dead will wait another thousand years after the Second Coming. The first resurrection already happened two thousand years ago, for those in Abraham's bosom. They came out of the dust then, never to return. Explain how they get back into the dust.... please.

 

[Douggg]

Does this apply to those currently alive in heaven, or are they physically buried up there as well?

No redeemed person will return to the dust to grab that old Adamic physical body. That is the point Satan has deceived the church with for millennia.

The time of redemption started at the Cross, and for Lazarus a few weeks prior. Lazarus already had the permanent incorruptible physical body, all in Paradise have enjoyed every moment they have spent in Paradise. The thief on the Cross was redeemed that day, and entered Paradise, that day.

The blessed hope has already happened to those with eternal life in heaven. The day of redemption is when the soul leaves this flesh, for God's permanent eternal life.

No-one has received their incorruptible eternal life bodies yet.

The resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians4:16-18 has not happened yet.

 

[Timtofly]

I have currently come to the heavenly Jerusalem, just like Hebrews 12:22 says. If you haven’t come to it yet, then I can understand why you might not accept the heavenly/New Jerusalem exists today.

Your profile says your from Mount Morris. I could claim there is no Mount Morris in this current world and I might be able to convince some people who have never been there but there is absolutely no way I’m going to convince you because you’re in Mount Morris.

I’ve come to the New Jerusalem, the heavenly Jerusalem. There’s no way you’re going to convince me otherwise because that’s where I’m at.

Heavenly Jerusalem is not the New Jerusalem of the next creation. This creation is still in effect. You obviously do not think there is a future new creation after this one ends, and you must not think this creation will ever end.


You are conflating two separate issues. Revelation 21 cannot even start until this creation we exist in ends.

No verse outside of Revelation is talking about a future Jerusalem. The Heavenly Jerusalem is also called Paradise, and has been in heaven since the Flood of Noah's day. There have been billions of sons of God enjoying that heavenly Jerusalem as the host of heaven since the Flood. Your preterism fails to account for life on earth 5,000 years ago, and that life that was transferred to heaven, at the time of the Flood.

Revelation 21 is future. Your heavenly Jerusalem, mentioned in Hebrews and elsewhere have already been in existence since the start of this creation. Heavenly Mount Zion was already a thing when King David lived on the earth. The New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 is not a spiritual thought process. The New Jerusalem is a literal physical phenomenon not yet created. It will replace the current Jerusalem in the NHNE.

 

[Timtofly]

No, He hasn't. I'm talking about Jesus in His humanity here just to be clear. I know He is God and has always existed, also, but He didn't begin to reign as both God and man until after His resurrection. Did He say this since during creation week?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Also, the timing of Revelation 20:6 correlates with the timing of Christ's followers being made priests of God and of Christ. When did that begin to occur? According to 1 Peter 2:9 and Revelation 1:5-6, that began to occur long ago right after Christ's resurrection. Scripture says that we ARE "a royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9) and that Jesus "HAS MADE" us a kingdom of priests of God (Rev 1:5-6), so that should tell you something about the timing of Revelation 20:6 if you care about interpreting scripture with scripture.


Do you think that anyone takes you seriously when you say nonsense like this? I hope not. Because no one does.

No, you are placing humans into the position of describing the reign of Christ. Jesus had human form when he talked to Abraham and ate human food. That was the post Resurrection Jesus, that always existed post the Cross, because Jesus is God, and always existed in time with a post Resurrection body. Not a made up body, that disappeared when He was born. The post resurrection Jesus, appeared in the fiery furnace with the 3 Hebrews in Daniel.

You dictate that only post Cross Christiand can rule and determine the physical rule of Jesus. That is not from Scripture, but your feeble human understanding.

Those humans in Revelation 6 have not even been beheaded yet. They cannot rule until after they have been beheaded, and are physically resurrected.

The fact they are beheaded and when, determines the chronology of Revelation 20, not your ideal history of mankind.

 

[Timtofly]

No-one has received their incorruptible eternal life bodies yet.

The resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians4:16-18 has not happened yet.

That is what human theology teaches, and is not from Scripture. There is no verse that claims we must wait until some future event.

You all don't believe like Martha. Jesus said you would never die. If you are never going to die, how can you be resurrected?

John 11:25-26

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Are you calling Jesus a liar, and claim you will die, so you can be resurrected?

The OT redeemed were waiting for the Cross, and that was their last day resurrection. Are you waiting for Jesus to die on the Cross again?

Jesus said whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Paul explicitly said in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that when the soul leaves one body, it enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. You all don't believe that either. Nothing Paul wrote can contradict that point.

You all interpret Paul in such a way that directly contradicts Jesus and Paul. That is a deception the church has taught in their feeble human theology and understanding.

 

[Douggg]

That is what human theology teaches, and is not from Scripture. There is no verse that claims we must wait until some future event.

You all don't believe like Martha. Jesus said you would never die. If you are never going to die, how can you be resurrected?

John 11:25-26

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Are you calling Jesus a liar, and claim you will die, so you can be resurrected?

The OT redeemed were waiting for the Cross, and that was their last day resurrection. Are you waiting for Jesus to die on the Cross again?

Jesus said whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Paul explicitly said in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that when the soul leaves one body, it enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. You all don't believe that either. Nothing Paul wrote can contradict that point.

You all interpret Paul in such a way that directly contradicts Jesus and Paul. That is a deception the church has taught in their feeble human theology and understanding.

Tim, no one has been resurrected nor changed into their eternal incorruptible bodies. The resurrection/rapture event has not happened.

1Corinthians15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is what human theology teaches, and is not from Scripture. There is no verse that claims we must wait until some future event.

Sure, there is.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This passage makes it very clear that the dead in Christ will not be resurrected and we will not all be changed to have immortal bodies until the last trumpet sounds and it has not sounded yet. Do you claim that the last trumpet has already sounded? If so, you are blatantly contradicting Paul. Once the last trumpet sounds in the future, then all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected and all believers will be changed to have immortal bodies. But, not before then. Your doctrine blatantly contradicts what is written in the passage above, but I'm sure you don't care about that because you just believe whatever you want to believe and don't accept what passages like the above teach.

You all don't believe like Martha. Jesus said you would never die. If you are never going to die, how can you be resurrected?

John 11:25-26

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Are you calling Jesus a liar, and claim you will die, so you can be resurrected?

LOL. That verse is not talking about not physically dying. Clearly, people physically die and you will, too, if Jesus doesn't come first, so what exactly are you even saying here? What Jesus was saying there is that even though a person is physically dead, they are still spiritually alive and will never die spiritually. A person's soul and spirit does not die, but instead goes to heaven when their body dies. The dead bodies of believers will not be resurrected and will not be changed until the last trumpet sounds some day in the future.

 

[Timtofly]

Let me define “spirituality alive” this way. A person can currently confess Jesus as their savior, join a church, and claim they are spiritually alive. From our human perspective that person is saved or “spiritually alive”.

From Gods perspective that person may or may not be one of His elect. Only God truly knows the heart. A person can think they are one of His elect while in reality they are not, they might be told “I never knew you”.

A person during the Old Testament, who followed all the law, would by our human perspective be saved, spiritually alive. The day Jesus died on the cross the old covenant was no longer valid and a person who just the day before appeared to be saved and alive was now unsaved and dead if they did the same exact things. A person had to change and recognize that animal sacrifices were no longer valid, the handwriting of ordinances that were against us were nailed to the cross.

The point is one is not spiritually alive or made alive until they leave this body of death, and enter heaven.

The second birth into God's family is not spiritually alive as you explain the term. A spiritual resurrection is symbolic, not a literal phenomenon. Spiritually alive is not becoming aware of something you were not previously unaware of. Some people don't even know their own heart.

Those under the Law were always spiritually dead. That is why they were waiting in Abraham's bosom. No one could be made spiritually alive, except for a few exceptions: Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and Lazarus. Only after the Cross, was being made alive available.

People can feel different, but having emotional changes is not "being made spiritually alive". Many are still getting confused over the resurrection in Revelation 20, and even what it means to be elect. No one becomes elect, nor spiritually alive, for that matter. They are not exactly the same phenomenon.

Gog and Magog are not spiritual terms or lack of something spiritual. Gog and Magog are relationships between human government and individuals, and how one feels they belong to any human government or not. The terms are closer in our common use of the word racism, than something spiritual.

 

[Davy]

Tim, no one has been resurrected nor changed into their eternal incorruptible bodies. The resurrection/rapture event has not happened.

1Corinthians15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That's actually correct, because even though those who have died are not literally 'asleep' in the grave, but live right now according to God in the spirit per 1 Peter 4:5-6, the final resurrection involves the mortal souls of the dead saints putting on immortality like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:54. Only then will the saying 'Death is Swallowed Up in Victory' be manifest, which Paul quoted from Isaiah 25.

 

[Timtofly]

I’m not proposing the “rest of the dead” living not again till the thousand years are finished is a resurrection. What I’m proposing is that the “rest of the dead” is Israel that is blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. No physical resurrection is needed for the blindness to be lifted from Israel.

None of Israel were spiritually beheaded.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, no one has been resurrected nor changed into their eternal incorruptible bodies. The resurrection/rapture event has not happened.

1Corinthians15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We are the dead, in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, that need to be raised out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Those in Paradise are not in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are in God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies. 2 Corinthians 5:1:3

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked."

No souls are walking around naked in Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

Clearly, people physically die and you will, too, if Jesus doesn't come first, so what exactly are you even saying here? What Jesus was saying there is that even though a person is physically dead, they are still spiritually alive and will never die spiritually.

We don't physically die. The soul leaves this dead flesh immediately for God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Jesus said no death was involved. You are calling Jesus a liar. The OT redeemed were waiting in death, in Abraham's bosom. That stopped at the hour of the Cross, which was the hour of resurrection, for the OT redeemed. They will not be resurrected twice.

 

[Douggg]

We are the dead, in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, that need to be raised out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Those in Paradise are not in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are in God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies. 2 Corinthians 5:1:3

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked."

No souls are walking around naked in Paradise.

The souls in heaven are not walking around naked, but have robes. The robes though are not their eternal life incorruptible bodies. Their eternal life incorruptible bodies will be when the resurrection/rapture event takes place.

The natural body is sown in corruption, i.e. will decay and return to dust. When the resurrection takes place that dust will be reconstituted, combined with heavenly substance to be forever eternal incorruptible bodies.

There is so much that as created beings we cannot explain the how He does it, power of God. But keep the faith, because we do have hope and the promise of His Word.

Love God, Believe God, Trust God

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We don't physically die.

The soul leaves this dead flesh immediately for God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Jesus said no death was involved. You are calling Jesus a liar.