Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed
- Thread starter Phoneman777
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Earburner
Well-Known Member
No. It's more simple than you can imagine.
Rom. 8
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is NONE of his...for EVER!!
See Rev. 3:20.
There is NO future "add on" of another "second chance" 1000 year temporal KoG on earth, for unbelievers, deniers, antichrists, or the like who have ignored, rejected and/or trampled upon the holy blood of Christ, DURING this present (and only) Age of God's Grace.
Heb. 10
[24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
[26] For if we sin wilfully [Choose to ignore/reject Christ- being the UNPARDONABLE SIN]
after that we have received the KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[in example]:
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Behold the goodness and severity of God!
Last edited:
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Earburner
Well-Known Member
No one is becoming a Saint! They either are a Saint, or they are not!!
You are not understanding Rev. 3:20 John 3:3-8; 14:23 and Rom. 8:8-9.
Just as soon as a person repents towards God, by having faith in the shed blood of Christ, and opens the door of their innermost being, for Him to enter in and take up residence within them, THEY ARE saved/sealed by being born again by His Gift of the Holy Spirit.
In Corinth, they who Paul spoke of, were indeed "babes IN Christ", and were in need of the meat of God's word for growth.
The focus of Paul is that they were indeed IN CHRIST, just as simple as the repentant thief on the cross is IN Christ.
Last edited:
Dear Earburner,
You said:
No one is becoming a Saint! They either are a Saint, or they are not!!
You are not understanding Rev. 3:20 John 3:3-8 and Rom. 8:8-9.
The saints are chosen from the foundation of the world but Christ still has to make them into saints. Since the saints are chosen, Christ will not fail to do ALL His work within them before they die. His work includes the saint receiving both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by the Day of the Lord/Thousand Years Reign (Christ's judgment to remove the chaff). After His work is complete, they will be converted and will become "children" of God. Then by Christ's chastening judgment that come from the Spirit within them, they will grow to "full age":
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
All the work that Christ needs to do within the saint will happen because it is God's "will" for it to happen. Nothing or no one can stop Christ from doing it. Even the saint has no say so in the matter.
After the saints are converted, they will become bondservants of Christ and will only do Christ's "good pleasure" (Phi 2:13).
For the "many" people who are "called to be saints" but are not chosen to be one, they will not be given the Latter Rain of the Spirit or experience the Day of the Lord prior to their physical deaths. They will remain babes who are spiritually blind and carnally minded. They have the Early Rain of the Spirit (that is how Christ called them to be saints) but they will be left unconverted.
So who are the saints? No one can know who they are until AFTER they have been converted. And even then, only other converted saints will be able to recognize them. Since unconverted believers have no ability to "see" Christ, they will also have no ability to "see" the converted saints.
You said:
Just as soon as a person repents towards God, by having faith in the shed blood of Christ, and opens the door of their innermost being, for Him to enter in and take up residence within them, THEY ARE saved/sealed by being born again by His Gift of the Holy Spirit.
I will re-word your statement to make it comply with scripture:
Just after Christ gives the Early Rain of the Spirit to a person, they will repent and have faith in the shed blood of Christ. With the Early Rain of the Spirit, Christ will be "within" the person and will have taken up residence in His temple. The new believer is saved but they are not yet "born again" nor are they sealed by the Holy Spirit yet.
Here is when a believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation (this happen when a person receives the Early Rain): in whom ALSO AFTER THAT YE BELIEVEED, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (this is the Latter Rain which seals them), 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (when they receive a spiritual body), unto the praise of his glory.
A believer is "born again" only after they have received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. This is when the believer can be known to be "Elect" and not merely a person who has been called to be a saint:
Consider what Peter says below:
1Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
And here:
1Thes 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
The event being described above is the second coming of Christ when Christ comes to one of His Elect who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit.
After an Elect believer has received the Early Rain, they came under the deceptions of Satan and will spiritually die. They will then enter into the apostate church where they will dwell in "peace and safety"; believing that they are following the true Christ and are "born again" & saved.
Because the Elect believer is in this apostate condition when Christ returns to give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit, He comes to them as a "thief in the night" to bring destruction to them. Destruction comes after the believer's spiritual blindness is healed. With their blindness healed, the believer will "see" the Abomination of Desolation (Mat 24:15) which had previously occurred when the spirit of anti-Christ indwelt them. This new knowledge of the truth will then bring destruction to the man of sin who they had become (2Thes 2:8).
After all this happens to the Elect believer, they will be converted and the woman who is travailing with child (the freewoman/Holy Spirit), will then give birth to the new child of God. The Elect believer is now "born again".
You said:
In Corinth, they who Paul spoke of, were indeed "babes IN Christ", and were in need of the meat of God's word for growth.
The focus of Paul is that they were indeed IN CHRIST, just as simple as the repentant thief on the cross is IN Christ.
Yes, they were "babes in Christ" when Paul wrote to them. They were saved because they had not fallen away from faith. They were waiting as a "chaste virgin" for the Lord to return to "confirm them to the end" (1Cor 1:8) and make them blameless in the Day of the Lord.
But all this soon changed for the "babes in Christ" (unconverted believers) who were waiting for the Lord to return and convert them. After Paul's death, the babes in Christ were devoured by wolves:
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
If you carefully read Paul's comments, you may be able to see the distress that the knowledge of the coming apostasy caused Paul. The churches that he began were going to fall prey to Satan. By the end of the 1st century, all the churches which the Apostles had started became apostate.
Since that time, all new believers shortly after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit will come under Satan's deceptions in the apostate church. After a new believer "falls away", they will no longer be a "babe in Christ" nor will they be a "chaste virgin". They will have lost their salvation.
Note: A chaste virgin (Early Rain only) spiritually fornicates with Satan when they start believing Satan over Christ (believing the "another gospel" of Satan over the true Gospel of Christ). When they do this, they are committing the sin that leads to death. For this reason, the apostate Elect believer needs the Latter Rain of the Spirit to restore their virginity. This truth is taught by the Parable of the Ten Virgins. I will make a second post which will explain that parable in more detail.
Consider these three verses below. They show the apostate condition of an Elect believer just prior to them receiving the Latter Rain of the Spirit.
Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.
Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.
Joe
Dear Earburner,
Here is the Parable of the Ten Virgins:
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto TEN virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in flasks with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
This is another of the “Kingdom of Heaven is like” parables which teach on certain aspects of the Pathway to Salvation.
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto TEN virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
The parable begins by showing us Ten Virgins. The spiritual term Virgins symbolizes all believers who have been called out from the world.
2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
When the parable begins, all Ten Virgins have received the Early Rain of the Spirit, but not the Latter Rain. The number TEN represents completeness. During the parable, all Ten Virgins will be shown to have been made “worse than the first” (Mat 12:43-45). This devolution of their spiritual nature will complete their carnality and they will become a Man of Sin.
The lamp which all Ten Virgins carry represents the Word of God (Christ/Truth) and the light which the lamp gives off represents the Law:
Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Prov 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
With the light of the Law lighting the pathway, all Ten Virgins will be led to Christ.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Mat 25:2 And FIVE of them were Wise, and FIVE were Foolish.
The parable continues with two additional symbols: FIVE Wise Virgins and FIVE Foolish Virgins.
The number Five is a symbol for how we relate to God.
There are two ways by which mankind can approach God; one is by our own works and the other way is by Faith.
The Five Foolish Virgins represent those who have been called out but have not been chosen to be saints. They will only approach Christ by their own works in this age. They will remain under the Law until their physical deaths.
The Five Wise Virgins represent those who have been called out and chosen to be saints. They will for a time approach Christ by their own works alongside the Five Foolish Virgins but they will eventually change their approach to Faith.
The number of days the Five Wise Virgins will spend under the Law will be “shortened” because they will be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven EARLY. They are the First Fruits of Christ’s harvest of mankind. The Five Wise Virgins are the only ones who will be saved in this present age.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The parable continues with:
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in flasks with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
While all Ten Virgins wait for the Bridegroom to come a second time (the first time was when the betrothal was made at the Early Rain), they all slumber & sleep and do not keep watch. The phrase “slumbered and slept” represents the time when all Ten Virgins are spiritually blind and spiritually dead. At this time, the Wise Virgins are spiritually no different from the Foolish Virgins. As a result of this worsened spiritual state, they have all become a Man of Sin (2Thes 2:1-4).
However, verse 4 tells us that the Five Wise Virgins carry an extra flask of oil. This extra oil represents the anointing of the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This extra oil will fill their lamps with the Spirit of the Law and will light their way under the New Covenant of Grace through faith.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Midnight represents the darkest part of a called out believer’s spiritual blindness when they are under the full measure of Satan’s influence and have become a Man of Sin. When the call goes out to announce the Bridegroom’s approach, all Ten Virgins hear the call and trim their lamps. This is the same call that was made by John the Baptist to the Nation of Israel and is the same call being made now by converted Elect believers. The purpose of the call is to tell the Wise Virgins to repent from their works and to make the pathway straight for the Lord to travel. With their repentance and extra oil, the Wise Virgins are “ready” for the return of the Bridegroom and the Marriage of the Lamb.
Note: This time of waiting for the Bridegroom to return was “typed” by the 120 Jewish Elect who waited in the upper room. Then, on the Day of Pentecost, they received the Latter Rain of the Spirit and were made ready for the Marriage of the Lamb (Acts 1:12-15). After their spiritual blindness was healed, the Bridegroom returned and took them to the wedding.
When the Ten Virgins hear “the voice of one crying in the wilderness” (Luke 3:4) and “come out of her my people” (Rev 18:4), they all rise up from their slumber and trim their lamps. However, since the Foolish Virgins do not have any extra oil, they are not ready for the Bridegroom to arrive. As their lamps begin to go out, they have to turn back to buy more. When the Bridegroom arrives, the Wise Virgins (who have the extra oil) are the only ones there to meet Christ. The Latter Rain of the Spirit (extra Oil) has made them an acceptable chaste virgin again. The Wise Virgins will then travel with the Bridegroom to the wedding where they will be born again as a child of God.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the Marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Since the Foolish Virgins are forced to “turn back”, they will remain under the Law and will die in their sins.
This time of turning back is presented in John 6:66 when some of Christ’s disciples turned back from following Christ after hearing the cry of John the Baptist.
John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
They, too, lacked the extra oil for their lamps.
The Five Foolish Virgins simply were not chosen from the foundation of the world to be included in the harvest of First Fruits. Without the extra oil, they had no choice but to turn back.
CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST....
Last edited:
CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Upon the Foolish Virgins’ resurrection from the grave, they will be rejected by Christ and find that their portion is going to be with the unbelievers. This event commences the Day of the Lord for them. At that time, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire where they will be judged in wrath.
Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the Lake of Fire.
The Foolish Virgins were not blessed to have their days under the Law and as a Man of Sin shortened (Mat 24:22) As a result, they will have to wait until the end of the harvest season (final age) for their salvation. They will suffer “loss” and will not have life in the Kingdom of Heaven during the ages. But they will be saved; “yet so as by fire”.
1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abides which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
When the Great Day of the Harvest (Feast of Tabernacles) finally arrives, this call will go out:
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
At that time, the remaining harvest of mankind will be gathered into the Kingdom of Heaven.
With this harvest, the Kingdom of Heaven will now contain “all” who died in Adam:
1Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Christ’s reign will come to an end and God will be ‘all in all”.
Joe
Earburner
Well-Known Member
"FaithWillDo",
I don't read your posts lightly. I do agree with much of what you say.
Yes, though most do not understand the concept of our reality in Christ, we each ourselves are the New earth, God's long desired dwelling place of Immortality, with HIS Righteousness within us..
2 Cor. 4
[7] But we have this treasure [God Himself in Christ] in earthen vessels [our mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Rev. 21
[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
If all have learned about the "Feast of Tabernacles", by the Holy Spirit's teaching, one will come to know that the example of temporary shelters/booths, was not about Israel, but rather about God, who desires to NOW dwell within our temporary mortal bodies, through Christ.
In so doing, we are now given the Gift of His Eternal Life, and then upon Christ' Glorious return, we shall be "changed" into the likeness of His lmmortality.
Last edited:
Earburner
Well-Known Member
In your quote above, verse 22 clearly states that those who remained IN** their Adam nature, DID NOT CONVERT, so that they could be IN** Christ (and He in them). Therefore, they ARE NOT made alive (quickened-indwelling Holy Spirit) unto the resurrection of Eternal Life, or even their old "natural" life.
Edit: in that Day, YES, there will be no more death!!! All the Saints are resurrected unto Glory, and all those "who are none of his", will be killed/"destroyed". As a result, from both sides of the fence, there also will be NO MORE PHYSICAL BIRTHS!! Thus, no more death!
"The Great white throne judgment" is a metaphor for John 3:18.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Rev. 20
[15] And whosoever was not found written **IN the book of life [who is Jesus Himself] was cast into the lake of fire. (see Rom. 8:9).
2 Thes. 1:7-10 is a SIMULTANEOUS event in ONE literal 24 hour day, of His Glorious and FIREY return from Heaven, WITH His mighty angels.
Luke 17:29-30
[29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Last edited:
Dear Earburner,
You said:
Yes, though most do not understand the concept of our reality in Christ, we each ourselves are the New earth, God's long desired place of Immortality, with HIS Righteousness.
Concerning the New Earth, your understanding is close but it is still a bit off. The New Earth is not a believer - the New Earth is within a believer.
The old (natural) earth represents mankind's carnal nature/marred spirit/wicked heart. During a believer's judgment, the old earth will be destroyed.
2Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
It is replaced with a New Earth. The New Earth is the converted believer's new spiritual nature/new spirit/new heart which is governed by the Holy Spirit.
The old earth is also represented by the "woman" who becomes a harlot.
The old (natural) heavens represents mankind's carnal mind/Old Man. The Old Man becomes the Man of Sin when the believer is indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ. During Christ's judgment, the carnal mind will be destroyed and made into the New Heavens. The New Heavens is the mind of Christ/New Man.
2Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
You said:
If all have learned about the "Feast of Tabenacles", by the Holy Spirit's teaching, one will come to know that the example of temporary shelters/booths, was not about Israel, but rather about God, who desires to NOW dwell within our temporary mortal bodies, through Christ.
The concept that Paul mentions below applies to what you stated above.
1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
First comes the natural body in which God will dwell and then comes the spiritual body in which God will dwell.
The concept also applies to the law; the law was first written on tablets of stone (natural) and then it is written in a person's heart (spiritual).
The concept also applies to the symbols earth and heaven as I explained above. It also applies to the Old Covenant (natural) and the New Covenant (spiritual).
Joe
Dear Earburner,
I don't understand your reasoning on "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive".
The verse is clearly saying that "all" who died in Adam (that's all mankind) is the same "all" who will be made alive in Christ.
The verses below say the same thing:
Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.
Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man THE MANY (mankind) have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one THE MANY (mankind) will be constituted righteous.
Joe
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Although you know of all this, let's first look at Adam and Eve, and our inheritance of free will, aka the freedom to choose, during the short lived time of their innocence.
In the scene of the Garden of Eden, how is it that man was not given free will to choose?
And in that choosing, did not God list the consequence of what a wrong choice was, that would bring about misery and permanent death to A&E? "In the day that you eat thereof, thou shalt surely die."
Q. What is the result of not choosing "the Tree of Life"?
A. Misery of mortal life, and finally permanent death.
Q. Why death?
A. Gen. 3:22-24
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become AS one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
In the Garden, the Tree of Life was Jesus.
Because A&E did not choose the Tree of Life first, there was no way that A&E could continue on living into eternity, without the Gift of eternal life, that only the Tree of Life provided.
Edit: you said: "I don't understand your reasoning on "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive".
Because you don't agree with scripture, that man was allowed to have and then inherit free will, from the very beginning, your belief system foolishly concludes that EVERY person, who has ever lived, shall be saved.
We all STILL must choose the free Gift of Eternal Life, by having faith in Christ, who was sacrificed for every man.
If we, as individuals, DO NOT make Him our choice, while we have breath, we CANNOT go on living into Eternity.
Last edited:
Dear Earburner,
No where in scripture does it ever say that mankind has a free will ability to choose. In fact, God's Word says the opposite.
By elevating mankind's "will" to be equal with God's "will", you are saying that Christ has very little power to save a person and that God's "will" is really only a desire which He hopes will be accomplished. By your belief in free will, you make God out to be no more powerful than mankind, but of course, this is not true in the least:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Your beliefs also remove the responsibility for saving mankind from Christ and place it back onto the individual - like was the case under the Old Covenant of Law. By doing this, you are also saying that all the scriptures which say that God has "chosen" the Elect for salvation are nothing more than lies. And since mankind has a free will to choose, the Elect could not have possibly been chosen by God for salvation - you are saying that they chose Christ.
Your understanding of God's "foreknowledge" is also blasphemy.
One last point: You are forgetting that mankind was created with a marred spirit which caused mankind to become carnally minded. It is mankind's carnal mind that veils Christ from their knowledge and is what makes it impossible for anyone to "choose" Christ. The only solution is for Christ to come to the individual (without their asking or permission) and freely give them the Spirit. This is the only way a person will ever accept Christ as their "Lord". And after the person has the Spirit, they will longer have the ability to reject Christ either.
1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
The beliefs that you espouse are truly the beliefs which come from Satan's "another gospel" and the spirit of anti-Christ. Those beliefs blaspheme the name of Christ to this world.
I will give you credit for one thing, the Tree of Life does represent Christ.
I have moved onto another thread so I plan this to be my last post to you here.
Joe
Earburner
Well-Known Member
I repeat: If we, as individuals, DO NOT make Him our choice, while we have breath, we CANNOT go on living into Eternity.
Rom. 8-10
[8] So then they that ARE in the flesh [only-being unconverted] cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Last edited:
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Since you are moving on to another thread, I can only say that throughout the NT scriptures, Jesus makes it plain that His Glorious, visible return from Heaven, in Immortality, will be suddenly, a one time simultaneous event of destruction for all the unsaved, and redemption for ALL OF HIS Born Again Saints.
1 Thes. 5
[1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[3] For when THEY shall say, PEACE and SAFETY; then SUDDEN destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall NOT ESCAPE.
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, [deception] that that day should overtake [seize, possess] you as a thief.
[5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
[6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
[8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
[9] For God hath NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
[10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
BTW, your ideology sounds alot similar to the book: "God's Plan For All", by David Sulem, of which I disagree with, as pertaining to a future additional Age of God's Grace to come, AFTER Jesus returns in all His Glory, without sin, being no longer His former self, as the sin bearer!! (try to think that through).
Heb. 9
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time [in His Immortality] without sin unto salvation.
Edit: in other words, there will be NO SIN BEARER to be found in your fictitious future, additional age of God's Grace in anything that many like to call "The millennium", aka "The thousand years".
Thanks for the discussion,
Earburner
Last edited:
Earburner
Well-Known Member
MY one last point:
1. Adam and Eve were created innocent.
They had NO knowledge of evil or good, nor did they have Eternal existence of any kind!
2. Christ does NOT GIVE the Holy Spirit to anyone WITHOUT their "asking" or knowing!!
Luke 11:13.
The first step to Christ, is from outside of themselves, whereby the Father "draws" them to repentance first!! (See also John 4:23).
John 6
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
That form of repentance is the Greek word (TR Greek) "metanoeo", which means: "to have another mind" from outside of ourselves. "God's mind comes alongside our mind".
From that point, after hearing the words of Christ, the person of "whosoever will", then CHOOSES to believe in Him, or not.
Last edited:
Dear Earburner,
I will respond to your second point which was:
2. Christ does NOT GIVE the Holy Spirit to anyone WITHOUT their "asking" or knowing!!
Luke 11:13.
The first step to Christ, is from outside of themselves, whereby the Father "draws" them to repentance first!! (See also John 4:23).
John 6
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Father draws a person to Christ when Christ freely gives the person the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Spirit, the person will repent and have a measure of faith. This event happens "suddenly" (comes without warning) because the person did not ask for the Spirit (Rom 3:10) nor did Christ ask the person for permission to give them the Spirit.
The scriptures below describe the sudden and unexpected nature of when Christ gives the Early Rain of the Spirit to an unbeliever:
Psa 64:7 But God shall shoot at them with an arrow; suddenly shall they be wounded (called but not converted/same as the deadly head wound by the Sword).
Acts 9:3 And as he (Paul) journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Shortly after a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, Satan will also come to the person "suddenly" and give them the spirit of anti-Christ. This will cause the Abomination of Desolation within the new believer. They will then fall from faith and return to "works". And like with the Early Rain of the Spirit, the new believer does not ask for Satan to give them the spirit of anti-Christ, nor does Satan ask them for permission. Because of the spiritual blindness of the believer, they will not know that Satan did this to them.
Isa 47:11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.
Mat 13:25 But while men slept (time of spiritual blindness), his enemy (Satan) came and sowed tares (comes from the bad seed which is the spirit of anti-Christ) among the wheat (comes from the seed of the Holy Spirit), and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
After the believer (the "world") has fully accepted Satan's false gospel and it has been accepted by the "nations" (beliefs of the believer), the "end" will come (Mat 24:14). The "end" is the believer's time of conversion when Christ returns with the Latter Rain and judgment.
To prepare the way for Christ's second coming, Christ will send a person in the spirit of Elijah to the fallen away believer with the call of repentance. Christ will then cause the person to repent and be restored to Faith by giving the person the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Latter Rain, the believer will be ready for Christ to appear and judge them (the Day of the Lord).
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple (believer with the Early Rain), even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. 5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob (spiritual children of Abraham/children of God) are not consumed.
This verse also applies:
James 5:17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain (this is the Latter Rain): and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months (3 1/2 years is the symbol for the time between a person receiving the Early Rain and the Latter Rain/time of Elijah's drought). 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit (wheat/child of God is born). 19 My brothers and sisters, if any among you strays from the truth (falls away from faith), and someone turns him back, 20 let that person know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death (the fallen away believer will be restored to faith by the Latter Rain) and cover a multitude of sins.
Christ has given me the work of making the call of Elijah to fallen away believers in the apostate church. For those who have been given the Latter Rain of the Spirit, they will repent of their works and be restored to faith. Christ will then appear and begin their time of judgment (Day of the Lord). After their judgment is complete, the person will be converted and the Kingdom of Heaven will have a new citizen.
If you can't receive what I have presented above, we need to end our discussion.
Joe
Last edited:
Earburner
Well-Known Member
That is my point, of which you DON'T hear or see.
The Holy Spirit of God IS NOT GIVEN yet to a person, that He is LEADING to repentance (metanoeo) towards God. At that time in a person's life, the mind of God, His Holy Spirit, only comes along side of us, but IS NOT YET permanently within the repentant sinner.
Only until he HEARS the gospel of Christ, of His shed blood for our sins, does he then understand that he must either answer Christ knocking to allow Him to COME INTO HIM, or let Him PASS BY. Rev. 3:20.
Yes indeed, it really is BY OUR OWN decision to either RECEIVE Him, or IGNORE Him.
Luke 11
[13] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father GIVE the Holy Spirit to them that ASK him?
Dear Earburner,
What you stated above is not what scripture teaches. A person is given the Early Rain of the Spirit first and the Spirit then gives them faith and causes them to repent.
Luke 11:13 and when Christ knocks at the door are teaching about when Christ gives an Elect believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The believer had already received the Early Rain of the Spirit previously.
The Early Rain of the Spirit is what gives a person a measure of faith and is what causes them to repent. There is NOTHING within an unbeliever that will cause them to have faith and repent on their own. Christ must come them and give them the Early Rain of the Spirit beforehand. After Christ gives the person His free gift of the Spirit, the Spirit will cause them to have faith and repent. This is the only way a person can enter the church - because without the Spirit, "there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" (Rom 3:10) . Because of this truth, Christ will come to a unbeliever by His own choosing and will freely give them the free gift of the Spirit. That is why scripture says that Christ comes "suddenly". The person has no say in the matter.
You are confusing the scriptures that teach about the Latter Rain of the Spirit with those that are teaching about the Early Rain of the Spirt.
Paul's conversion is the "type" for how Christ saves His Elect (1Tim 1:16). That is why there are so many usual details shown in Paul's conversion experience. Those usual details are there to teach certain spiritual truths contained in Paul's conversion.
You really need to carefully study Paul's conversion experience because it completely refutes what you stated in your last post.
In Paul's conversion story, did Christ ask Paul (when he was traveling to Damascus) for permission to give him the Early Rain of the Spirit?
Absolutely NOT.
Did Paul ask Christ for the Spirit?
Absolutely NOT.
Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road solely by His own decision to do so and when Christ came, He freely gave Paul the Early Rain of the Spirit. Paul was not even aware that Christ had given him the Spirit, but we can know that it happened because of the way Paul immediately changed. Paul had been on his way to persecute Christians but all that suddenly changed for Paul for no apparent reason. This is the evidence which proves that Paul had been given the Early Rain of the Spirit.
Here is when Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit:
Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly, there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand (the blind leading the blind), and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
After Paul arrived in Damascus, Paul would have then heard the gospel by the "foolishness of preaching". And because Paul had received the Early Rain of the Spirit previously from Christ, Paul would have then made a confession of faith and would have entered the church.
During Paul's three days in Damascus, Paul still remained blind so as to "type" his spiritual blindness. And because Paul was spiritually blind, Paul was not able to eat (bread) or drink (New Wine) during that time. The number THREE represents the spiritual process which took place "within" Paul which made Paul "worse than the first". Because Paul fell pray to Satan, it is shown in the verses below that Paul was staying at a house of a man named "Judas". And like Judas, Paul became a "man of sin".
After the three days were complete, it was time for Christ to "come again" to Paul and give Paul the Latter Rain of the Spirit. To make Christ's pathway straight, Christ had Paul pray a prayer of repentance from "works".
Here is when Paul received the Latter Rain of the Spirit:
11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight (Christ's pathway was made straight), and enquire in the house of Judas (Paul had become a "man of sin") for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth (Paul was repenting of His works). 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith (spiritual blindness healed), and arose, and was baptized (Marriage of the Lamb). 19 And when he had received meat (Marriage Supper of the Lamb), he was strengthened.
You are "forcing" your false belief of "free will" into the teachings of scripture.
Joe
Last edited:
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Almost my exact point!!
As I had said: "
The Holy Spirit of God IS NOT GIVEN yet to a person, that He is LEADING to repentance (metanoeo) towards God. At that time in a person's life, the mind of God, His Holy Spirit, only comes along side of us, but IS NOT YET permanently within the repentant sinner.
Only until he HEARS the gospel of Christ, of His shed blood for our sins, does he then understand that he must either answer Christ knocking to allow Him to COME INTO HIM, or let Him PASS BY. Rev. 3:20.
Paul came to the point of his repentance, when he "ASKED": Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished
It is the similar form of asking, as that of the thief on the cross: "Remember me, when you come into your kingdom".
Prior to both cases, neither Paul or the repentant thief received the Holy Spirit, UNTIL after they asked/invited/answered, by opening up their "innermost being" to the call of Christ, through the event/circumstances that they were in.
Prior to them asking and/or requesting (being repentant believers towards God's call), neither one would have received the permanent Gift of God's Holy Spirit AT ALL, if they IGNORED Him.They would've been deemed by God as being unrepentant unbelievers towards Him.
During their encounter with Jesus, in both cases, the Lord was outside, but being along side of them.
When they asked/requested (repented towards God by the "early rain"), THEN after did the Holy Spirit enter into them, taking up His permanent INDWELLING presence within them.
If there is no repentance (metanoeo) on our part, then NO INDWELLING Gift of the Holy Spirit will be given.
Edit: please see my post #224 again.
Last edited:
Similar threads
