Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[FaithWillDo]

What you are saying is that God will save me, even though I am of "that spirit of antichrist".
Or even if I have been neither cold nor hot but rather Luke warm (indecisive about repentance towards God), and shall spit me out of his mouth, he will save me anyways.

I don't think that you are correctly understanding 1 Cor. 3:1-15. Paul was speaking to Born Again Christians, the "election of God", NOT to unsaved people.

Dear Earburner,
In this age, Christ is only saving the people who have been chosen to be saved early. They are the First Fruits - the early portion of the harvest. If a person has not been chosen to be in the early harvest, Christ will harvest them in the main harvest of mankind which occurs at year's end (the final age).

You said:
What you are saying is that God will save me, even though I am of "that spirit of antichrist". Or even if I have been neither cold nor hot but rather Luke warm (indecisive about repentance towards God), and shall spit me out of his mouth, he will save me anyways.

Yes, no one is too evil for Christ to save. Christ loves all mankind and will change us all. The only issue is "when" Christ will save a person and that was decided by His Father before the foundation of the world.

Consider this verse below:

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

In this verse, Christ was speaking to the chief priests who were the ones who were responsible for having Him crucified. If the Doctrine of Hell were true, Christ would have told them that they were going to suffer in hell for all eternity (or perished as some believe). But Christ says no such thing to the chief priests. The only issue was "when" the chief priests were going to be saved and not "if". For the chief priests, their salvation will come in the final age when the balance of unsaved mankind is saved.

You said:
I don't think that you are correctly understanding 1 Cor. 3:1-15. Paul was speaking to Born Again Christians, the "election of God", NOT to unsaved people.

The Corinthian church was not converted. They were babes in Christ who had only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. They were still carnal:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Look at how Christ addresses his letter to them:

1Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

An unconverted believer is called to be a saint because they are not saints yet. The Corinthian believers were still waiting for the Lord to come to them a second time and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

1Cor 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (conversion), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

A person is only "blameless" after they have received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit.

The story of the woman taken in adultery teaches this truth:

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

The "woman" represents mankind. The "stones" represent the Law.

Christ’s act of writing in the ground represents Him giving the woman the Early Rain of the Spirit. It means the same as when Christ writes His Law of the Spirit in a person's heart.

This verse applies:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The verse above is referring to the New Covenant of Grace through Faith which is Christ’s spiritual covenant. Under the New Covenant, Christ will perform all the necessary “works” to restore the woman to Himself. And since it is a spiritual covenant, Christ will write his Law of the Spirit in the heart of the woman.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

After Christ first writes in the earth, the Pharisees continue to accuse the woman. They do this because the woman still remains under the Law after having received the Early Rain of the Spirit. She remains under the Law because the Early Rain is not sufficient to stop her from committing adultery with Satan. In other words, the woman does not have the ability to approach Christ strictly by faith yet. She is still compelled by her carnal nature and the influence of Satan to mix in her own “works” with faith. The woman is trying to serve two masters, both Satan and Christ (Mat 6:24).

By continuing in her adultery, the woman remains under the Law. For this reason, the Pharisees do not drop their stones but continue to accuse her.

John 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

In verse 8, Christ stoops down a second time and writes His Law of the Spirit in the heart of the woman again. This act represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

It is at this point that Christ heals the woman’s spiritual blindness and she comes out from Satan’s deceptions. At this time, she begins to walk by faith alone. As a result, the Law can no longer accuse the woman. After her change from the Old Covenant of Law to the New Covenant of Grace through Faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The woman has now been birthed as a child of God and has been made "blameless" before the Law.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

You say that the 3 days in the grave was relating to an event so it can be taken literally but we can add a spiritual meaning which doesn't take away from the actual event. And you used the event of David killing Goliath as an example.

Why would you not accept equally that the 1,000 year dynasty of the King of kings over planet earth is literal event which one could apply and extract spiritual interpretation as well.

Types are useful. Parables are useful. But when applied to anything literal, like the temple that stood before Jesus and His audience, of which He used as a type, it didn't cause the temple to lose its significance, it didn't cease to literally exist.

My encouragement to you is to embrace both and be blessed by both.

Again, I love the way God uses types, I love parable as this is the main way the Spirit speaks to me throughout each day.

And thanks for your encouragement, I will reflect on the upcoming event of the reign of King Christ over this planet of ours and look for any types that the Spirit may reveal from this event.

Dear 12question,
Why would you not accept equally that the 1,000 year dynasty of the King of kings over planet earth is literal event which one could apply and extract spiritual interpretation as well.

The 1,000 years reign is not a type, parable or analogy - it is a prophecy which will be spiritually fulfilled as are all the prophecies which are fulfilled under the New Covenant. It is no different than Christ's end-time prophecy of Matthew chapter 24. End-time prophecy teaches the pathway to salvation that each Elect believer will travel. It is fulfilled spiritually within the Elect.

The reign of Christ in the final age is a spiritual reign that happens within the lost. The spiritual symbol "1000 years" does not mean a literal amount of time. The final age may last 500 years or 5000 years. Scripture is silent on how long that age literally lasts.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Absolutely not!
When Jesus hung on the cross dieing, all of his mortal blood poured out of his wounded feet and hands, not to mention the wound by the spear in his side, whereby both blood and water gushed out. Lest you forget, "The life of His mortal flesh WAS in His INNOCENT blood." Lev. 17:11; Prov. 6:17.

When Jesus resurrected from the dead, into Immortality, there was NO Blood left in His veins. His heart pumped it all out.
Now I ask you, did Jesus need blood AGAIN, after having been made Immortal?
Our Blood carries Oxygen to every mortal fleshly organ to keep them alive. As a result, if we don't "breathe" oxygenated air, we die!
So now we must ask: does Jesus still breathe oxygenated air??....in Heaven (of which I speculate is simply another dimension)?

Moses, Who did not attend classes for Biology/Chemistry 101, did the best he could with his limited knowledge, calling oxygenated air "the breath of life". Gen.2:7; 6:17; 7:15, 22.

After Jesus' resurrection and ascension, He does NOT require Oxygenated air, in order to stay alive forever. He has NO BLOOD.
He said so:
Luke 24
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me HAVE.

See also: Eph. 5
[30] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Therefore, Jesus has the capacity to be Spirit, as well as Immortal flesh and bone, at will.

Dear Earburner,
Upon Christ's resurrection from the grave, Christ received a spiritual body that was immortal and didn't need air to breathe. The Elect will receive this same type of body. However, the "lost" will not receive a spiritual body upon their resurrection from the grave. They will receive another physical body which requires air to breathe. But this time, Christ will save them before they perish.
Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Since Jesus is the Mediator between God and fallen mankind, can you describe the word "covenant", and how it relates to
1. God,
2. Jesus and
3. ourselves?
I'm sure you can, but I'm not sure that you are relating with what is required of each, in order to enter into that covenant relationship of God.

Dear Earburner,
A covenant can be an agreement between two parties or it can be a promise made to a certain party.

The Old Covenant is an agreement and was between Christ and the Nation of Israel. It is a physical covenant and it gave certain promises to the nation based upon the nation doing certain things (works) to earn the promises.

The New Covenant was given by Christ to fulfill the promises He made to Abraham and His seed. The promises are their "inheritance". It is a spiritual covenant and does not require any works from Abraham or His seed for them to receive the promises. It is a free gift.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

After an Elect person is converted, they will become a spiritual seed of Abraham and an heir to the promises. And since salvation will come to all mankind, all mankind will be blessed by Abraham and His seed (the Elect) during the final age:

Gen 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation (the Elect), and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Similar to Adam and Eve, by our free will, we have the CHOICE to "believe", or to remain in "unbelief".
Rom. 11[23] And they also, if they [of Israel] abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
If they choose to abide "in unbelief": then God cannot and will not graff them in again.

Dear Earburner,
There are NO scriptures which teach that mankind has a free will. In contrast, there are MANY scriptures which say that mankind's "will" is governed and controlled by God.

Do you not understand the meaning of free will?

It is a "will" that is free of divine constraints. Scripture clearly says that there are constraints on mankind's "will" by God.

Consider a computer. It makes choices all day long. However, no one would say that a computer has a free will because the choices that the computer makes are caused by the programmer. In mankind's case, God is our programmer.

Joe

 

[Stumpmaster]

There are NO scriptures which teach that mankind has a free will.

Yes there are:

Mar 7:21-22 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, (22) thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Gal 5:13 For, brothers, you were called to liberty. Only do not use the liberty for an opening to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

 

[Ritajanice]

Early and latter rain, has got nothing imo to do with becoming Born Again, we are already Born Again as soon as Spirit gives birth to spirit.

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children, see how simple that is to understand, why, because it’s Gods word...plus it needs to be backed up by Gods Living witness the Holy Spirit...He is our guide who brings Gods truth Alive in our hearts/ spirit....without the indwelling Holy Spirit...we would know NOTHING....all Praise goes to God!!...not “ self”.....self knows “ zilch”.

Some people imo over complicate the word of God...by adding their own understanding of scripture to the mix.

In other words, they speak from “ self” and it’s downright boring to read, no life in the spirit..

And please, please, if you disagree, don’t post reams and reams of scripture, just a short explanation of why you disagree will suffice.using the written word of God.

My opinion/ testimony and belief.

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
In this age, Christ is only saving the people who have been chosen to be saved early. They are the First Fruits - the early portion of the harvest. If a person has not been chosen to be in the early harvest, Christ will harvest them in the main harvest of mankind which occurs at year's end (the final age).

You said:
What you are saying is that God will save me, even though I am of "that spirit of antichrist". Or even if I have been neither cold nor hot but rather Luke warm (indecisive about repentance towards God), and shall spit me out of his mouth, he will save me anyways.

Yes, no one is too evil for Christ to save. Christ loves all mankind and will change us all. The only issue is "when" Christ will save a person and that was decided by His Father before the foundation of the world.

Consider this verse below:

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

In this verse, Christ was speaking to the chief priests who were the ones who were responsible for having Him crucified. If the Doctrine of Hell were true, Christ would have told them that they were going to suffer in hell for all eternity (or perished as some believe). But Christ says no such thing to the chief priests. The only issue was "when" the chief priests were going to be saved and not "if". For the chief priests, their salvation will come in the final age when the balance of unsaved mankind is saved.

You said:
I don't think that you are correctly understanding 1 Cor. 3:1-15. Paul was speaking to Born Again Christians, the "election of God", NOT to unsaved people.

The Corinthian church was not converted. They were babes in Christ who had only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. They were still carnal:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Look at how Christ addresses his letter to them:

1Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

An unconverted believer is called to be a saint because they are not saints yet. The Corinthian believers were still waiting for the Lord to come to them a second time and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

1Cor 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (conversion), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

A person is only "blameless" after they have received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit.

The story of the woman taken in adultery teaches this truth:

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

The "woman" represents mankind. The "stones" represent the Law.

Christ’s act of writing in the ground represents Him giving the woman the Early Rain of the Spirit. It means the same as when Christ writes His Law of the Spirit in a person's heart.

This verse applies:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

What you say has merit for understanding your reasoning of the work of Christ in the early and latter rain. In that I agree and have no problem. For awhile now, I have understood the three "comings" of Jesus.

What does bother me though, is your insistence that everyone will be saved, even those who refuse to repent towards God, through believing in Christ.

Your quote of Mat. 21:31 is rendered clearly in the KJV, but it is said more specifically in the Textus Receptus Greek (TRG).

KJV- Mat. 21:32
[31] Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God BEFORE you.
[32] For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, REPENTED NOT afterward, that ye might believe him.

TRG- Mat. 21:31 Which of the two did the will of the father, they say to him. The first said to them, Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that publicans and harlots will  BRING you into the kingdom of God.
32. For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe. but the prostitutes and the harlots believed in him, but you, seeing, DID NOT REPENT after believing in him.

I am vehemently opposed to any and all doctrines that forecast an additional, future temporal Age of that which "IS AS a 1000 years" of the KoG being on the earth, for the preaching of the gospel AGAIN(?) to the SUPPOSED bodily resurrected UNSAVED!!

All should learn, know and be confirmed/ convinced, that ever since Pentecost, we HAVE BEEN IN the very last temporal Age of God's Grace, of which shall be "suddenly" ENDED, "WHEN" Jesus is revealed from heaven in flaming fire. KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10; Luke 17: 26-30.

 

[Lizbeth]

Dear Lizbeth,
You said:
The concept of free will I believe is somewhere in the middle between the two poles.... so to speak. The Lord is sovereign, that is true....and I do "hear" those examples of scripture you are bringing........yet, for example, if scripture warns against sinning wilfully then we must have some free agency to exercise our will.

What you said above sounds reasonable but it is not true according to what God's Word teaches. You must remember that God's ways are not mankind's ways. What sounds reasonable to mankind may not be true at all.

I recommend that you read all of Romans chapter 9. It teaches about how God deals with mankind in this world. Some people are chosen to be vessels of honor (Elect) and some are not. Paul even says that God is the one who causes people to sin. God does this because it suits His purposes for this creation.

Here is one of the key passages of chapter 9:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault (for when a person sins)? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Evidently, Paul was asked about why God still finds fault with mankind for their sin since (as Paul had taught them) it is God who is the one who causes mankind to sin in the first place. To mankind, this "way" just doesn't sound fair.

The apostate church rejects the truth that Paul taught in Rom 9:19-21. In place of that truth, the apostate church teaches that God would never cause mankind to sin, but rather, mankind sins because they make a "free will" choice to sin. And because mankind makes a free will choice to sin, mankind must also make a free will choice to accept or reject Christ's free gift of salvation.

These false teachings of the apostate church are founded upon the lie that mankind has a free will ability to direct their own steps. With this lie, they justify why unbelievers are worthy of hell and why they are not. By doing so, they make themselves out to be wiser, smarter or just not as evil as those who continue to reject Christ. This belief in their own "works" makes for a very self-righteous person. But to Christ, it is nothing more than filthy rags.

According to scripture, mankind sins because it is God's "will" for mankind to sin. Why does God do this? The answer is because mankind's sin will teach mankind the difference between "good and evil" - knowledge that God desires for His children to have.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Consider these verses below which teach who is responsible for mankind's sin:

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Isa 45: 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Because God is responsible for mankind's sin, God took responsibility to correct our sinfulness. To do this, God sent Christ into the world to save the world. Christ began His work of saving mankind by becoming the perfect blood sacrifice for the sins of the world so as to comply with the Law of God. Next, to correct mankind's sinning ways, Christ established a new covenant with mankind where He would do all the necessary spiritual works to change mankind from within. By these spiritual works, mankind will be made into a new creation and will never sin again.

By the end of the next and final age, God will have many new children (all mankind) who are like Him in knowledge and in character. This is the purpose for this creation and is the meaning of life that eludes most people.

You said:
I don't want to walk ahead of the Lord, but only be LED by Him, if and when and where He leads, according to His will and wisdom.

This is a very wise statement and it is in line with what scripture teaches about how a person learns the truth of God. It is my fault for exposing you to "too much" of the higher level truths of God when you are not ready to receive them.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Scripture teaches that truth is received "line upon line and precept upon precept". In other words, it is like constructing a building. You must start with the foundation, then onto the lower levels and finally onto the higher levels. If you try to build on the higher levels before the lower levels are complete, the truth of the higher levels will escape you. When a believer does this, it causes error in their understanding.

The foundation of truth starts with "Christ and Him crucified" (the physical work of Christ). All that is required to be able to receive this truth is the Early Rain of the Spirit. But after this truth is received, the next levels of truth require a spiritual ability in order to understand and receive the teachings of the New Covenant. It is these spiritual teachings of the New Covenant that are greatly misunderstood by the apostate church.

After Christ pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and heals an Elect believer's spiritual blindness, they will have a great deal of false teachings to unlearn.

The first truth that Christ teaches a believer after they have received the Latter Rain is the truth that the Doctrine of Free Will is completely false. It is that false doctrine that is the foundation of the apostate church's belief in "works". After that doctrine falls and is replaced with the truth that salvation comes to mankind solely by the works of Christ, the believer will finally have true faith in Christ.

True faith is trusting Christ for every need and every step that a person takes to become a full aged son of God (salvation). After they "come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1Tim 2:3-6), they will come to know that their own works have been nothing but filthy rags and not the white robes that they thought they were wearing when they were under Satan's influence.

In conjunction with their restored faith, the believer will "see" the Abomination of Desolation (Mat 24:15) that previously occurred within themselves when they were under Satan's influence. At this point, they have come out of Satan's deceptions. The knowledge of this truth will bring destruction to the "man of sin" who they had become in the apostate church.

This verse applies:

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (this is when the man of sin is cast into the Lake of Fire, Rev 19:20):

Now that the true Christ has been revealed to the believer, the next truth they will be able to receive is the truth that Christ is truly the Savior of the world. They will quickly learn this truth because they now know that mankind's salvation is totally in the hands of Christ and not in the individual's hand. And since Christ has said that He will save all mankind, they now have the necessary faith to believe Him.

I hope this helps a little.

Joe

 

[Lizbeth]

I think the Lord was mocking the "here a little, there a little" for those who fell backward, because they weren't getting the big picture, and perhaps they were cherry picking verses here and there as well. But I understand what you are saying....it's about growing.

Oh dear, ,God doesn't "cause" mankind to sin......bible says we sin when we are drawn away and tempted by our own lusts etc, and that HE does not tempt anyone. Can't agree with your take on this.......it gives license for people to be irresponsible and fatalistic. That is not how the Lord says or does things.

Do you believe the Lord controls us like puppets? I don't think it's like that. And the bible says explicitly that we are elect according to His foreknowledge. Yet He is sovereign over everything....and I think having foreknowledge is part of how He is sovereign, since it enables Him that He has "gone before" in all things and prepared the way for His will and purposes, before anything came to be. Hard to understand and hard to express so I don't like to get embroiled in arguments about free will. God holds us accountable and He is not unjust. There do seem to be reasons for being in the "middle" on this...in spirit. It's like we can exercise our will for the most part, but it is under His sovereignty.

Some things I can see what you are saying, but other things I don't agree with, or at least not the way you are expressing them. How you are expressing some things doesn't seem to be in spirit...it is like the carnal mind compartmentalizing. I'm not saying that to be nasty or rude, just what I'm observing.

P.S. I have to break this into two separate posts, otherwise it's all too long for the system to allow room for a reply.

 

[Lizbeth]

Dear Earburner,
Again, Christ will change mankind's heart and mind by His spiritual work that He will do within each person who has ever lived. He is the cause of a person's repentance and faith. Mankind has no ability to repent or to have faith in Christ due to their pre-existing carnality. The carnal mind hates God and it veils the truth of God from their understanding. Mankind does not have a free will ability to repent or have faith in Christ - that is a deception from Satan.
Joe

I agree that repentance is "granted".....but an individual may harden their heart and resist the Holy Spirit when He comes calling....or their heart may be open to the Lord and soft.....often due to the Lord having prepared their hearts through afflictions of life experiences that He allowed the devil to inflict. But not because of controlling anyone.

Scripture says the mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs their steps.....both sides of this equation are true....the mind of man exercises his will to plan his way, while the Lord may open or close doors or otherwise direct how things go. Eg, many planned to go to work in the World Trade Centre towers on 9/11 but we have testimonies of many having impediments put in their way so that they weren't able to show up for work on time and so their lives were spared.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Yes there are:

Mar 7:21-22 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, (22) thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Gal 5:13 For, brothers, you were called to liberty. Only do not use the liberty for an opening to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Dear Stumpmaster,

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The heart that mankind is given at birth is described by the scripture you quoted in Mark. But after Christ gives a person the Spirit, they will have a "new heart" which will change their carnal mind into the mind of Christ:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth (means the same as a new heart), the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The two verses I quoted above is how Christ converts a person into a child of God.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

What you say has merit for understanding your reasoning of the work of Christ in the early and latter rain. In that I agree and have no problem. For awhile now, I have understood the three "comings" of Jesus.

What does bother me though, is your insistence that everyone will be saved, even those who refuse to repent towards God, through believing in Christ.

Your quote of Mat. 21:31 is rendered clearly in the KJV, but it is said more specifically in the Textus Receptus Greek (TRG).

KJV- Mat. 21:32
[31] Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God BEFORE you.
[32] For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, REPENTED NOT afterward, that ye might believe him.

TRG- Mat. 21:31 Which of the two did the will of the father, they say to him. The first said to them, Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that publicans and harlots will  BRING you into the kingdom of God.
32. For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe. but the prostitutes and the harlots believed in him, but you, seeing, DID NOT REPENT after believing in him.

I am vehemently opposed to any and all doctrines that forecast an additional, future temporal Age of that which "IS AS a 1000 years" of the KoG being on the earth, for the preaching of the gospel AGAIN(?) to the SUPPOSED bodily resurrected UNSAVED!!

All should learn, know and be confirmed/ convinced, that ever since Pentecost, we HAVE BEEN IN the very last temporal Age of God's Grace, of which shall be "suddenly" ENDED, "WHEN" Jesus is revealed from heaven in flaming fire. KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10; Luke 17: 26-30.

Dear Earburner,
You said:
What does bother me though, is your insistence that everyone will be saved, even those who refuse to repent towards God, through believing in Christ.

Your quote of Mat. 21:31 is rendered clearly in the KJV, but it is said more specifically in the Textus Receptus Greek (TRG).

The "lost" only refuse to repent because Christ has not come to them yet and given them the Holy Spirit. Unless a person is given the Spirit beforehand, they cannot accept Christ.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

In this age, Christ is only saving the Elect who have been chosen from the foundation of the world for this blessing. Christ is not working to save anyone else in this present age. If He were, everyone alive today would be saved before they die. Christ's saving work is that certain.

But in due time (this age and the next), everyone will be saved and come unto the knowledge of truth:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I have answered your other comments many times before so I will not respond to them again.

I don't see any reason to continue our discussion. It has run its course.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

I think the Lord was mocking the "here a little, there a little" for those who fell backward, because they weren't getting the big picture, and perhaps they were cherry picking verses here and there as well. But I understand what you are saying....it's about growing.

Oh dear, ,God doesn't "cause" mankind to sin......bible says we sin when we are drawn away and tempted by our own lusts etc, and that HE does not tempt anyone. Can't agree with your take on this.......it gives license for people to be irresponsible and fatalistic. That is not how the Lord says or does things.

Do you believe the Lord controls us like puppets? I don't think it's like that. And the bible says explicitly that we are elect according to His foreknowledge. Yet He is sovereign over everything....and I think having foreknowledge is part of how He is sovereign, since it enables Him that He has "gone before" in all things and prepared the way for His will and purposes, before anything came to be. Hard to understand and hard to express so I don't like to get embroiled in arguments about free will. God holds us accountable and He is not unjust. There do seem to be reasons for being in the "middle" on this...in spirit. It's like we can exercise our will for the most part, but it is under His sovereignty.

Some things I can see what you are saying, but other things I don't agree with, or at least not the way you are expressing them. How you are expressing some things doesn't seem to be in spirit...it is like the carnal mind compartmentalizing. I'm not saying that to be nasty or rude, just what I'm observing.

P.S. I have to break this into two separate posts, otherwise it's all too long for the system to allow room for a reply.

Dear Lizbeth,
You said:
Oh dear, ,God doesn't "cause" mankind to sin......bible says we sin when we are drawn away and tempted by our own lusts etc, and that HE does not tempt anyone. Can't agree with your take on this.......it gives license for people to be irresponsible and fatalistic. That is not how the Lord says or does things.

Christ created Adam and Eve in a spiritually marred condition which caused them to become carnally minded. Christ did this on purpose since God never makes mistakes. God's purpose for their marred spiritual condition was to cause them to sin (be subject to vanity/sinfulness).

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Also, you are right when you say that God does not tempt anyone. That is why God made mankind spiritually marred and carnal so that it would do the tempting.

Christ also created Satan to tempt mankind as well. Look at the verses below and see how Christ uses Satan to do His work:

2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

So how did the Lord move David to number Israel? The Lord sent Satan to do it:

1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

You said:
Do you believe the Lord controls us like puppets? I don't think it's like that. And the bible says explicitly that we are elect according to His foreknowledge.

Do you feel like a puppet? I certainly don't - but at the same time, I understand that it is the Lord who directs my steps and gives me the answer of my tongue. He is the one who causes me to "will and do of HIS GOOD PLEASURE (Phi 2:13). Just because I have no ability to perceive His spiritual work which He does within me, it does not mean that He is not doing it.

As for "foreknowledge", God is not a fortuneteller who looks into the future and sees how things turn out. I know that apostate believers use the verse on foreknowledge to claim that God looks into the future and sees who accepts Christ. They say that God then turns around and claims that He "chose" the Elect in the first place. This explanation for how God choses His Elect is blasphemy. I hope you don't believe this way.

Here is where God's foreknowledge comes from:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning (foreknowledge), and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God's foreknowledge comes from the CERTAINTY that God will accomplish all things exactly as He has said. He accomplishes them by His work.

You said:
I agree that repentance is "granted".....but an individual may harden their heart and resist the Holy Spirit when He comes calling....or their heart may be open to the Lord and soft.....often due to the Lord having prepared their hearts through afflictions of life experiences that He allowed the devil to inflict. But not because of controlling anyone.

The Holy Spirit does not "come calling". Christ either gives the Spirit to a person or He doesn't. Once Christ has given the Spirit to a person, their heart and mind will be changed. After it is changed, they can no longer reject Christ.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Paul's conversion experience is a "type" which presents how Christ saves each of His Elect. As Paul traveled on his way to Damascus to persecute Christians, Christ came to Paul and give Paul the Early Rain of the Spirit. After Christ did, Paul fell to His knees and called Jesus "Lord". Paul then submitted to Christ's authority over him and asked the Lord "what do you want me to do"?

And just as Paul entered the church, so will all the Elect. Christ comes to His temple "suddenly" just as He came to Paul. A person's "will" plays no part in it. Salvation happens to the Elect only because it was God's "will" for it to happen. And because it is God's 'will", Christ will do all the necessary spiritual works to make it happen. The person has no works to perform to receive the Holy Spirit. It is freely given to them.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You said:
Scripture says the mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs their steps.....both sides of this equation are true....the mind of man exercises his will to plan his way, while the Lord may open or close doors or otherwise direct how things go. Eg, many planned to go to work in the World Trade Centre towers on 9/11 but we have testimonies of many having impediments put in their way so that they weren't able to show up for work on time and so their lives were spared.

Yes, mankind has a "will" and a "mind". With the mind, a person has thoughts, beliefs and can "make plans". But it is God who directs their steps as to what they believe and do, even to the point that the words which come out of their mouths are caused by God. In God's creation, God leaves nothing up to chance or to mankind's "will". Everything that happens, happens because God has caused it to happen, either directly or indirectly.

God is powerful and He will do with His creation as He sees fit. Nothing can stop Him:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Joe

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
There are NO scriptures which teach that mankind has a free will. In contrast, there are MANY scriptures which say that mankind's "will" is governed and controlled by God.

Do you not understand the meaning of free will?

It is a "will" that is free of divine constraints. Scripture clearly says that there are constraints on mankind's "will" by God.

Consider a computer. It makes choices all day long. However, no one would say that a computer has a free will because the choices that the computer makes are caused by the programmer. In mankind's case, God is our programmer.

Joe

And they also, if they [of Israel] abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
If they choose to abide "in unbelief": then God cannot and will not graff them in again.

It most definitely is a CHOICE for us to answer the Lord's "knocking", and OPEN the door of our heart (our will, our innermost being).
Rev. 3
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[amigo de christo]

I agree that repentance is "granted".....but an individual may harden their heart and resist the Holy Spirit when He comes calling....or their heart may be open to the Lord and soft.....often due to the Lord having prepared their hearts through afflictions of life experiences that He allowed the devil to inflict. But not because of controlling anyone.

Scripture says the mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs their steps.....both sides of this equation are true....the mind of man exercises his will to plan his way, while the Lord may open or close doors or otherwise direct how things go. Eg, many planned to go to work in the World Trade Centre towers on 9/11 but we have testimonies of many having impediments put in their way so that they weren't able to show up for work on time and so their lives were spared.

what i am seeing today is that many within even christendom itself are big time willfully and happily
loving and embracing , NOT GOD , NOT JESUS THE CHRIST , but rather another god and another christ .
That wont bode well on the day of the LORD either .

 

[amigo de christo]

I think the Lord was mocking the "here a little, there a little" for those who fell backward, because they weren't getting the big picture, and perhaps they were cherry picking verses here and there as well. But I understand what you are saying....it's about growing.

Oh dear, ,God doesn't "cause" mankind to sin......bible says we sin when we are drawn away and tempted by our own lusts etc, and that HE does not tempt anyone. Can't agree with your take on this.......it gives license for people to be irresponsible and fatalistic. That is not how the Lord says or does things.

Do you believe the Lord controls us like puppets? I don't think it's like that. And the bible says explicitly that we are elect according to His foreknowledge. Yet He is sovereign over everything....and I think having foreknowledge is part of how He is sovereign, since it enables Him that He has "gone before" in all things and prepared the way for His will and purposes, before anything came to be. Hard to understand and hard to express so I don't like to get embroiled in arguments about free will. God holds us accountable and He is not unjust. There do seem to be reasons for being in the "middle" on this...in spirit. It's like we can exercise our will for the most part, but it is under His sovereignty.

Some things I can see what you are saying, but other things I don't agree with, or at least not the way you are expressing them. How you are expressing some things doesn't seem to be in spirit...it is like the carnal mind compartmentalizing. I'm not saying that to be nasty or rude, just what I'm observing.

P.S. I have to break this into two separate posts, otherwise it's all too long for the system to allow room for a reply.

check this simple explanation out .
How many here can claim to know simple math , addition .
now if i came telling you all hey i know math and i do know very well addition
and i tell you all two plus two is five , WHO ON earth is gonna think i KNOW MATH WELL .
but rather odd . rather odd i seem to see this very concept being applied today within the churches .
a concept that says
HEY he knows math
she knows math
we all know math
and yet two plus two AINT COMING OUT TO FOUR
its five , its six , heck its seven or eight and they just keep saying HEY THEY ALL KNOW MATH , WE ALL KNOW MATH .
in other words
i am seeing a love , a gospel , a god , a christ , and etc GETTING preached and it darn sure CONTRADICTS
the GOD , HIS CHRIST , HIS LOVE , HIS TRUTH , HIS GOSPEL and yet they all holler ITS GOD , ITS LOVE , ITS CHRIST .
BOY do we got problems in the house .

 

[Earburner]

But in due time (this age and the next), everyone will be saved and come unto the knowledge of truth:

Mat. 13
[47] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
[48] Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

 

[FaithWillDo]

And they also, if they [of Israel] abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
If they choose to abide "in unbelief": then God cannot and will not graff them in again.

It most definitely is a CHOICE for us to answer the Lord's "knocking", and OPEN the door of our heart (our will, our innermost being).
Rev. 3
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Dear Earburner,
You are adding to the scriptures. You mix in to them your belief in man's works. The scriptures you quote which say to make a choice DO NOT teach how that choice can be made. You have to look at other scripture which seem to be unwilling do.

Here is how man's choices are made:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man (by the Early and Latter Rains), and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD (no free will ability).

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day (no free will ability).

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD (no free will ability); how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own (no free will ability); it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

The only people who can hear the Lord's voice are the ones who have been converted into children of God. They are the only ones who have "ears that can hear" the spiritual teachings of Christ. It is they who will experience the Marriage Supper of the Lamb where Christ will fed His truth of bread and New Wine to them.

The people who cannot ear the Lord's voice were not chosen to be converted in this age. Because Christ has not converted them, they cannot open the door to Christ so that they can be fed truth.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Mat. 13
[47] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
[48] Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Dear Earburner,
This scripture is teaching about Christ's judgment which purifies an Elect believer. It is no different than when Christ removes the tares from within the believer, leaving only the wheat (child of God).

This conversion event is what happens when the "ends of the ages" come upon the Elect. The bad vessels (everything that makes a person carnal) will be cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction.

Note: All the parables which begin with the phrase "the Kingdom of Heaven is like" are teaching about certain aspects of the pathway to salvation that the Elect will travel. The events are spiritual and happen individually and within the Elect.

Joe