Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[FaithWillDo]

Did the Spirit of Christ reveal this to you directly? If so, then great.

Our hope for Judas is a bit different, as I look forward to seeing Judas ruling with the other 11 in His coming kingdom.

If he doesn't, we will catch up with him and spend forever after with Judas. Yay!

Dear 12question,
Judas was the betrayer who was indwelt with Satan (spirit of anti-Christ). Judas died in that apostate condition and was never converted because he died before receiving the Latter Rain at Pentecost like the others.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Then...

Acts 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Judas is a type for the many who are called to be saints but fall from grace due to the spirit of anti-Christ. And like the apostate church, Judas will receive his portion with the unbelievers. But in the end, Judas will be saved by fire.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

After Jesus returns in flaming fire, what/who will the Eternally living, Immortal Saints, be ruling over?
There will be another "go at it", in this temporal world, among unsaved, sinful, mortal flesh people, who had taken the Mark of the beast?? Impossible!!!
I don't want any part of it!!!

Don't you not know that the "Day" of God's present Age of His Grace, to receive the Gift of His Salvation, "IS AS A thousand years"??

Dear Earburner,
The "day" that is like a thousand years is the Day of the Lord when Christ appears and judges the children of the Devil. In this age, the "thousand years" is like that day but is different for the Elect. The Thousand Years is not literal time. It represents the judgment of the Elect when they reign over their own judgment. Revelation 19 teaches this judgment.

In the final age, the Elect will reign a second time with Christ in judgment over the rest of mankind until the last person is saved. This verse applies:

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

The Thousand Years reign is "twice told" as I said above. Since they only reign over the children of the Devil, all will go to the Lake of Fire for destruction. But because of the grace of God, the lost will be converted into children of God before they perish.

Joe

 

[One 2 question]

Dear Earburner,
The "day" that is like a thousand years is the Day of the Lord when Christ appears and judges the children of the Devil. In this age, the "thousand years" is like that day but is different for the Elect. The Thousand Years is not literal time. It represents the judgment of the Elect when they reign over their own judgment. Revelation 19 teaches this judgment.

In the final age, the Elect will reign a second time with Christ in judgment over the rest of mankind until the last person is saved. This verse applies:

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

The Thousand Years reign is "twice told" as I said above. Since they only reign over the children of the Devil, all will go to the Lake of Fire for destruction. But because of the grace of God, the lost will be converted into children of God before they perish.

Joe

I see what you are trying to say. The 3 references are from 3 different people though.

From Solomon to Peter and John was 1,000 human years.
But as you would infer, only 1 day. So in human time, 1000 years, to God, is as only 1 day.

So was Jesus in the grave for 3 days or 3,000 years according to John's account (John 2:19)?

Or was Jesus in the grave for a long, long, long time? As some say, 1,000 years to John (Rev 20:4) was a long time.

It seems it's quite difficult for some to take John's 1,000 years as 1,000 years. Not sure why.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I see what you are trying to say. The 3 references are from 3 different people though.

From Solomon to Peter and John was 1,000 human years.
But as you would infer, only 1 day. So in human time, 1000 years, to God, is as only 1 day.

So was Jesus in the grave for 3 days or 3,000 years according to John's account (John 2:19)?

Or was Jesus in the grave for a long, long, long time? As some say, 1,000 years to John (Rev 20:4) was a long time.

It seems it's quite difficult for some to take John's 1,000 years as 1,000 years. Not sure why.

Dear 12question,
You said:
From Solomon to Peter and John was 1,000 human years.
But as you would infer, only 1 day. So in human time, 1000 years, to God, is as only 1 day.

No, I'm not saying what you said above. What I am saying is that the teachings of the New Covenant use "spirit" words (John 6:63) and those spirit words carry meanings that are different from what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13). To learn the meanings of spirit words, Paul says to compare spirit words with where they are used elsewhere in scripture. Then with the discernment of the Holy Spirit, their spiritual meanings will become clear.

Here are a few examples of "spirit" numbers along with their spiritual meanings:

One: Unity

Two: The Elect, witnesses of God.

Three: A spiritual process.

Four: Whole measure.

Five: Pathway to God – by man’s work or by Grace through Faith.

Six: Mankind, short of perfection.

Seven: Perfection.

Eight: A new spiritual state of being.

Nine: Christ’s chastening judgment

Ten: Completeness.

Eleven: True apostles, chosen, full of New Wine.

Twelve: Kingdom of Heaven.

Fifteen: Spiritual resurrection, birth of the Child of God.

Twenty Three: Fornicating with Satan, loss of salvation

Thirty: A complete spiritual process.

Forty: Time of Trials, Tribulation

Forty Five (3 x 15): The process of conversion and birth of a Child of God.

The "Thousand Years" is a spirit number which is related (like) to the Day of the Lord.

The number 1,000 is understood as 10 to the 3rd power or 10x10x10. It means a complete (10) spiritual process (3). We know that the complete spiritual process that it is referencing is "judgment" because Peter says it is like the Day of the Lord (Christ's judgment) and it only applies to the Elect because they are the only ones who will reign with Christ in judgment. The "Thousand Years" is one of the rewards the Elect receive.

Also, the Elect will reign with Christ TWO times: 1). over their own judgment 2). over the judgment of the "goats" in the final age. As Ecc 6:6 says, it is "twice told".

The "Thousand Years" is not a literal length of time - that is a carnal understanding of that phrase.

You asked:
So was Jesus in the grave for 3 days or 3,000 years according to John's account (John 2:19)?

Jesus was in the grave for 3 literal days. The actual physical events of scripture happened just as they are described. However, those same events are "types" which teach spiritual truths. That is why in Matthew chapter 24, Christ mentions Lot and his wife & Noah and the ark when He teaches about judgment coming to the Elect. Noah and Lot represent the Elect when they are being judged during their time of conversion.

You said:
It seems it's quite difficult for some to take John's 1,000 years as 1,000 years. Not sure why.

John's 1,000 years carries the same meaning as Peter's 1,000 years. As I said, the thousand years is a spirit word and its represents the time when the Elect reign with Christ in judgment over the children of the devil. It happens two times. The first time is over their own judgment as Rev chapter 19 shows. The second time is over the judgment of the goats in the final age.

Joe

 

[One 2 question]

The "Thousand Years" is not a literal length of time - that is a carnal understanding of that phrase.

Who said that? Did some theologian come up with that theory or interpretation?
So Jesus was not in the grave for 3 literal days?

 

[Earburner]

Dear Lizbeth,
You asked:
So the "end" of the ungodly and sinners who obey not the gospel.....isn't really the end (as opposed to eternal life)..? Same with destruction and perish.....they don't mean quite what they are saying? Are you saying those terms are hyperbole or allegorical somehow?

I'll try to bring a little more clarity to what I have been presenting.

Firstly, NO ONE but Christ has the ability to obey the gospel and to keep the Lord's commands. In that sense, mankind is like "beasts" who are led by their carnal instincts and who will perish.

Adam and Eve were was created spiritually marred and they quickly became carnally minded. Eve even displayed her carnality prior to her sinning in the Garden of Eden.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

It is mankind's carnality that causes mankind to disobey God and to sin. Because of such, mankind has no ability to obey the gospel or to have faith in Christ. Paul makes this point very clear in some of his letters. Here are some of the key statements by Paul:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity (hatred) against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Also, the Old Covenant (which is based solely on the works of man) was given to prove to mankind that they will always fall short of God's righteousness. As a result, the Old Covenant cannot save mankind because it cannot change mankind from within (spiritually). Unless mankind changes spiritually, mankind will always be carnal & sinful.

Since mankind is sinful (and the penalty of sin is death), John 3:18 says that mankind is "condemned already". As a result, all mankind will perish in the Lake of Fire - either in this age or in the final age. No one can escape this fate. Scripture is full of verses which state this truth.

Here is how to understand John 3:18 - my comments are in blue:

John 3:18 He (converted person/child of God) that believeth on him is not condemned: but he (all mankind) that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Because mankind's destiny is to perish in the Lake of Fire, the only way for Christ to save mankind is for Christ (by His work alone) to make mankind into a new creation.

The old vessel which is spiritually marred will be destroyed and made into a new vessel by mankind's Potter (Christ):

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Here is mankind's spiritual makeup:

MIND + SPIRIT/HEART = A LIVING SOUL

Because mankind's spirit/heart is marred, mankind's spiritual nature is carnal. This makes the formula look like this:

CARNAL MIND + CARNAL SPIRIT/WICKED HEART = A LIVING SOUL

To make the necessary spiritual change within mankind without destroying a person's individual consciousness, Christ will come to every person who has ever lived and remove their marred spirit and give them a new spirit.

Eze 36:26 A new heart (new spirit) also will I give you, and a new spirit (the Holy Spirit) will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Mankind's carnal mind (which contains our individual consciousness) will not be destroyed, but will be transformed by the new spirit/heart into the mind of Christ. This spiritual process that Christ will perform within mankind is called "conversion". Conversion destroys the old vessel and creates the new vessel.

After a person is converted, they will spiritually no longer be a part of mankind who dwells upon the earth. As a new child of God, the person will dwell with Christ in heaven.

Note: The terms "earth" and "heaven" are "spirit" words (John 6:63, 1Cor 12:3) and they do not represent a literal location - they represent a spiritual state of being.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

After reading and digesting all of your post, I can say that 90% of it is the Truth of God.

However, God's discernment within me does not agree to the 10% of your explanation. Though John 3:18, is very clear to understand, that all of mankind is physically born "condemed already" before God, we who are born again by His Holy Spirit have become so, "BECAUSE"(John 3:18) we "REASONED" (Isa. 1:18) with God's counsel, and then "CHOSE" to ENTER into the New Covenant relationship with God the Father, through faith in Christ.


For one to make a CHOICE, is to utilize their OWN HUMAN FREE WILL, through their own decision making process. For one to NOT CHOOSE Christ, is to remain in default of the dictate of John 3:18.
Therefore, every living person, while still having breath, who DOES NOT believe in God, through faith in Christ, and obeys not the gospel of Christ, by default remains in the condition of "condemnation" by God, and therefore "is lost", being a "son of perdition" (destruction), which is the meaning of "he is none of His" (Rom. 8:9).
Edit:
John 4
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in [the Holy] spirit and in truth.
John 6
[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Who said that? Did some theologian come up with that theory or interpretation?
So Jesus was not in the grave for 3 literal days?

Dear 12question,
You need to read my last post again. I said the events that happen in scripture happened just as they are recorded - BUT those events are also "types" which teach the spiritual truths of the New Covenant. The details of the events contain "spirit" words which have meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13).

So, yes, Jesus was in the grave for three literal days because it was an actual event. However, Jesus' death is also a "type" which teaches a portion of the pathway to salvation that the Elect will travel.

Haven't you ever wondered why there are so many unusual things that happened in scripture? It is because the details of those literal events contain spirit words which teach (in "type") certain spiritual truths of the New Covenant.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them (OT fathers) as TYPES, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come (day of salvation/conversion).

For instance: In the actual event of David and Goliath, why did David take 5 stones with him to fight Goliath? Why not 6 or 7 stones? It's because Goliath is a "type" for the Elect in an unconverted state. David is a "type" for Christ. The number 5 represents grace through faith (the New Covenant). When David delivered his first blow to the head of Goliath by one of the stones, it represented when Christ gives the Early Rain of the Spirit to one of His unconverted Elect. But because the first blow to the head of Goliath did not kill Goliath (deadly head wound was healed), David administered a second blow (the Latter Rain of the Spirit) with a Sword (Word of God, Truth) which beheaded Goliath. The head that was removed represented Satan. Though not presented in the "type", the Elect believer would then receive a new head (Christ).

Remember, the spiritual teachings of Christ are said (Isa 28:9-12) to be taught "here a little, and there a little". Most "types" do not contain all the details of the subject being taught. This is by design to help keep Christ (Word of God) veiled from all but the converted Elect who have had their spiritual blindness healed.

As for the "thousand years", it is part of an analogy (not an actual event). The "thousand years" never actually happens in a literal sense. To understand what that analogy teaches, you must understand the spiritual meanings of the spirit word that the analogy uses. I explained the meaning of the "thousand years" in my last post so I won't do it again here.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

After reading and digesting all of your post, I can say that 90% of it is the Truth of God.

However, God's discernment within me does not agree to the 10% of your explanation. Though John 3:18, is very clear to understand, that all of mankind is physically born "condemed already" before God, we who are born again by His Holy Spirit have become so, "BECAUSE"(John 3:18) we "REASONED" (Isa. 1:18) with God's counsel, and then "CHOSE" to ENTER into the New Covenant relationship with God the Father, through faith in Christ.


For one to make a CHOICE, is to utilize their OWN HUMAN FREE WILL, through their own decision making process. For one to NOT CHOOSE Christ, is to remain in default of the dictate of John 3:18.
Therefore, every living person, while still having breath, who DOES NOT believe in God, through faith in Christ, and obeys not the gospel of Christ, by default remains in the condition of "condemnation" by God, and therefore "is lost", being a "son of perdition" (destruction), which is the meaning of "he is none of His" (Rom. 8:9).
Edit:
John 4
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in [the Holy] spirit and in truth.
John 6
[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Dear Earburner,
You said:
However, God's discernment within me does not agree to the 10% of your explanation. Though John 3:18, is very clear to understand, that all of mankind is physically born "condemed already" before God, we who are born again by His Holy Spirit have become so, "BECAUSE"(John 3:18) we "REASONED" (Isa. 1:18) with God's counsel, and then "CHOSE" to ENTER into the New Covenant relationship with God the Father, through faith in Christ.

You made this statement: "because we reasoned" and we "chose" to accept Christ by our faith.

That statement is true but you must also understand that mankind has NO ABILITY to do what you stated UNLESS Christ comes to us and causes it to happen.

Here are these same verses again. I keep showing them to you because you have yet to accept what they teach.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Mankind is at the mercy of Christ to do His spiritual work within them which will CHANGE their heart and mind to accept Him. He does this by freely giving each person (at a time of His choosing and without their permission) the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. Without the Spirit, no man can call Jesus "Lord" (1Cor 12:3). Mankind has NO WORKS which they can take credit for when they accept Christ as their Savior. Christ is the one who causes us to do and believe ALL that is necessary for our salvation. His works are SPIRITUAL and they take place within a person.

This understanding I explained above is the foundational difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is based solely on the works of man. The New Covenant is based solely on the works of Christ. This difference between the two covenants is VERY IMPORTANT to understand.

Consider these verses:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.

When a believer takes credit for things like their "faith" and their "confession of faith", they are stealing from Christ. It was Christ's spiritual work that He did within the person which gave them their faith and their confession of faith.

The false gospel of Satan mixes man's works with the works of Christ. This is the same as mixing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. When a believer does this mixing, they are trying to serve TWO masters and are committing the ONE and ONLY sin that leads to death. It is by this sin that Satan kills the saints and builds his apostate church which masquerades as Christ's church.

Satan is called the "crooked serpent" because Satan teaches the "crooked way" of man's works. "Man's works" is the foundation of all the world's religions. When a person practices religion, they are following Satan and not Christ. The New Covenant is not a religion because Christ does all the works of making a person acceptable to God.

The Doctrine of Free Will is one of Satan's most powerful deceptions because it is pleasing to mankind's carnality.

This verse applies:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

The Old Wine represents the Old Covenant of man's works. The New Wine represents the New Covenant of Christ's works. After a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will remain unconverted (the deadly head wound will heal), spiritually blind and CARNALLY MINDED. Because the new believer remains carnally minded, they will still prefer the Old Wine over the New Wine. But after Christ gives the person the Latter Rain of the Spirit and converts them, they will no longer be carnally minded. It is at this point that the person will prefer the New Wine.

I hope this clears up the 10% you are not yet "seeing".

Joe

 

[Lizbeth]

After reading and digesting all of your post, I can say that 90% of it is the Truth of God.

However, God's discernment within me does not agree to the 10% of your explanation. Though John 3:18, is very clear to understand, that all of mankind is physically born "condemed already" before God, we who are born again by His Holy Spirit have become so, "BECAUSE"(John 3:18) we "REASONED" (Isa. 1:18) with God's counsel, and then "CHOSE" to ENTER into the New Covenant relationship with God the Father, through faith in Christ.


For one to make a CHOICE, is to utilize their OWN HUMAN FREE WILL, through their own decision making process. For one to NOT CHOOSE Christ, is to remain in default of the dictate of John 3:18.
Therefore, every living person, while still having breath, who DOES NOT believe in God, through faith in Christ, and obeys not the gospel of Christ, by default remains in the condition of "condemnation" by God, and therefore "is lost", being a "son of perdition" (destruction), which is the meaning of "he is none of His" (Rom. 8:9).
Edit:
John 4
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in [the Holy] spirit and in truth.
John 6
[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Like you I'm trying to discern. Some things are ringing in as true or maybe, but other things I am not getting any kind of inner witness for.

 

[Lizbeth]

Dear Earburner,
You said:
However, God's discernment within me does not agree to the 10% of your explanation. Though John 3:18, is very clear to understand, that all of mankind is physically born "condemed already" before God, we who are born again by His Holy Spirit have become so, "BECAUSE"(John 3:18) we "REASONED" (Isa. 1:18) with God's counsel, and then "CHOSE" to ENTER into the New Covenant relationship with God the Father, through faith in Christ.

You made this statement: "because we reasoned" and we "chose" to accept Christ by our faith.

That statement is true but you must also understand that mankind has NO ABILITY to do what you stated UNLESS Christ comes to us and causes it to happen.

Here are these same verses again. I keep showing them to you because you have yet to accept what they teach.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Mankind is at the mercy of Christ to do His spiritual work within them which will CHANGE their heart and mind to accept Him. He does this by freely giving each person (at a time of His choosing and without their permission) the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. Without the Spirit, no man can call Jesus "Lord" (1Cor 12:3). Mankind has NO WORKS which they can take credit for when they accept Christ as their Savior. Christ is the one who causes us to do and believe ALL that is necessary for our salvation. His works are SPIRITUAL and they take place within a person.

This understanding I explained above is the foundational difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is based solely on the works of man. The New Covenant is based solely on the works of Christ. This difference between the two covenants is VERY IMPORTANT to understand.

Consider these verses:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.

When a believer takes credit for things like their "faith" and their "confession of faith", they are stealing from Christ. It was Christ's spiritual work that He did within the person which gave them their faith and their confession of faith.

The false gospel of Satan mixes man's works with the works of Christ. This is the same as mixing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. When a believer does this mixing, they are trying to serve TWO masters and are committing the ONE and ONLY sin that leads to death. It is by this sin that Satan kills the saints and builds his apostate church which masquerades as Christ's church.

Satan is called the "crooked serpent" because Satan teaches the "crooked way" of man's works. "Man's works" is the foundation of all the world's religions. When a person practices religion, they are following Satan and not Christ. The New Covenant is not a religion because Christ does all the works of making a person acceptable to God.

The Doctrine of Free Will is one of Satan's most powerful deceptions because it is pleasing to mankind's carnality.

This verse applies:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

The Old Wine represents the Old Covenant of man's works. The New Wine represents the New Covenant of Christ's works. After a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will remain unconverted (the deadly head wound will heal), spiritually blind and CARNALLY MINDED. Because the new believer remains carnally minded, they will still prefer the Old Wine over the New Wine. But after Christ gives the person the Latter Rain of the Spirit and converts them, they will no longer be carnally minded. It is at this point that the person will prefer the New Wine.

I hope this clears up the 10% you are not yet "seeing".

Joe

....or maybe there are some things that are just wrong, ;) because I am not sure anyone can be said to know all truth. I believe what you are saying about Goliath is true. (A couple of years ago or so, the Lord "spoke" the number two to me...ever since then so many "two's" have been cropping up!)

The concept of free will I believe is somewhere in the middle between the two poles.... so to speak. The Lord is sovereign, that is true....and I do "hear" those examples of scripture you are bringing........yet, for example, if scripture warns against sinning wilfully then we must have some free agency to exercise our will. Maybe it's the difference between heaven's overarching point of view and our limited earthly realm or something like that. I do believe God chooses us, not that we choose Him, because no man can come to Christ except the Father draws him. But on the other hand a person can harden their heart and resist the Holy Spirit.

In 2 Peter 3 I believe the thousand years is as a day is speaking of the time of God's long-suffering (grace), if we read it carefully. Which age we are in now.

And I believe we are saved and redeemed when we come to faith....there are scriptures that say so, but then we need to learn and grow and apprehend, as the Spirit leads us into all truth. We are covered by His grace and full members of the family of God in the meantime, just as children are members and heirs in any family even though young. But then there is also the further salvation and redemption of our physical bodies after we die, when mortality puts on immortality.

I agree with the principle that the Lord speaks to us in parables...allegories, spiritual language...but I am cautious of not wanting to overshoot the mark. We can fall short of the mark and also I have seen how we can overshoot the mark as well. I don't want to walk ahead of the Lord, but only be LED by Him, if and when and where He leads, according to His will and wisdom.

 

[Earburner]

Mankind is at the mercy of Christ to do His spiritual work within them which will CHANGE their heart and mind to accept Him. He does this by freely giving each person (at a time of His choosing and without their permission) the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. Without the Spirit, no man can call Jesus "Lord" (1Cor 12:3). Mankind has NO WORKS which they can take credit for when they accept Christ as their Savior. Christ is the one who causes us to do and believe ALL that is necessary for our salvation. His works are SPIRITUAL and they take place within a person.

Yes, I agree that everyone, WHILE they have breath, is sought after by God the Father, and for those He woos by His Holy Spirit, He gives (leads/points) them to Christ, of whom will "come into them", if they answer His calling.
However, it is WE who must open the door of our heart (our human will), and personally invite Christ into our life. It is then that THEY take up residence, being BOTH Jesus Himself, as well as the Father, for God the Father permanently abides/dwells WITHIN Christ. John 14:23, Rev. 3:20.

WITHOUT faith in the blood of Jesus' sacrifice for our covering, God the Father will not and CANNOT dwell within anyone of us alone by Himself, ever!
Therefore, since Pentecost, should it be that anyone who has died, without answering Jesus' calling to them, that He may dwell WITHIN them, they remain to be "condemned already", having no hope of ever entering into the KoG, though they spent their whole life in "church-ianity" running parallel with it. They never were "born again" by the Holy Spirit of God, and therefore THEY truly ARE "none of His".

 

[FaithWillDo]

....or maybe there are some things that are just wrong, ;) because I am not sure anyone can be said to know all truth. I believe what you are saying about Goliath is true. (A couple of years ago or so, the Lord "spoke" the number two to me...ever since then so many "two's" have been cropping up!)

The concept of free will I believe is somewhere in the middle between the two poles.... so to speak.

Dear Lizbeth,
You said:
The concept of free will I believe is somewhere in the middle between the two poles.... so to speak. The Lord is sovereign, that is true....and I do "hear" those examples of scripture you are bringing........yet, for example, if scripture warns against sinning wilfully then we must have some free agency to exercise our will.

What you said above sounds reasonable but it is not true according to what God's Word teaches. You must remember that God's ways are not mankind's ways. What sounds reasonable to mankind may not be true at all.

I recommend that you read all of Romans chapter 9. It teaches about how God deals with mankind in this world. Some people are chosen to be vessels of honor (Elect) and some are not. Paul even says that God is the one who causes people to sin. God does this because it suits His purposes for this creation.

Here is one of the key passages of chapter 9:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault (for when a person sins)? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Evidently, Paul was asked about why God still finds fault with mankind for their sin since (as Paul had taught them) it is God who is the one who causes mankind to sin in the first place. To mankind, this "way" just doesn't sound fair.

The apostate church rejects the truth that Paul taught in Rom 9:19-21. In place of that truth, the apostate church teaches that God would never cause mankind to sin, but rather, mankind sins because they make a "free will" choice to sin. And because mankind makes a free will choice to sin, mankind must also make a free will choice to accept or reject Christ's free gift of salvation.

These false teachings of the apostate church are founded upon the lie that mankind has a free will ability to direct their own steps. With this lie, they justify why unbelievers are worthy of hell and why they are not. By doing so, they make themselves out to be wiser, smarter or just not as evil as those who continue to reject Christ. This belief in their own "works" makes for a very self-righteous person. But to Christ, it is nothing more than filthy rags.

According to scripture, mankind sins because it is God's "will" for mankind to sin. Why does God do this? The answer is because mankind's sin will teach mankind the difference between "good and evil" - knowledge that God desires for His children to have.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Consider these verses below which teach who is responsible for mankind's sin:

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Isa 45: 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Because God is responsible for mankind's sin, God took responsibility to correct our sinfulness. To do this, God sent Christ into the world to save the world. Christ began His work of saving mankind by becoming the perfect blood sacrifice for the sins of the world so as to comply with the Law of God. Next, to correct mankind's sinning ways, Christ established a new covenant with mankind where He would do all the necessary spiritual works to change mankind from within. By these spiritual works, mankind will be made into a new creation and will never sin again.

By the end of the next and final age, God will have many new children (all mankind) who are like Him in knowledge and in character. This is the purpose for this creation and is the meaning of life that eludes most people.

You said:
I don't want to walk ahead of the Lord, but only be LED by Him, if and when and where He leads, according to His will and wisdom.

This is a very wise statement and it is in line with what scripture teaches about how a person learns the truth of God. It is my fault for exposing you to "too much" of the higher level truths of God when you are not ready to receive them.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Scripture teaches that truth is received "line upon line and precept upon precept". In other words, it is like constructing a building. You must start with the foundation, then onto the lower levels and finally onto the higher levels. If you try to build on the higher levels before the lower levels are complete, the truth of the higher levels will escape you. When a believer does this, it causes error in their understanding.

The foundation of truth starts with "Christ and Him crucified" (the physical work of Christ). All that is required to be able to receive this truth is the Early Rain of the Spirit. But after this truth is received, the next levels of truth require a spiritual ability in order to understand and receive the teachings of the New Covenant. It is these spiritual teachings of the New Covenant that are greatly misunderstood by the apostate church.

After Christ pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and heals an Elect believer's spiritual blindness, they will have a great deal of false teachings to unlearn.

The first truth that Christ teaches a believer after they have received the Latter Rain is the truth that the Doctrine of Free Will is completely false. It is that false doctrine that is the foundation of the apostate church's belief in "works". After that doctrine falls and is replaced with the truth that salvation comes to mankind solely by the works of Christ, the believer will finally have true faith in Christ.

True faith is trusting Christ for every need and every step that a person takes to become a full aged son of God (salvation). After they "come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1Tim 2:3-6), they will come to know that their own works have been nothing but filthy rags and not the white robes that they thought they were wearing when they were under Satan's influence.

In conjunction with their restored faith, the believer will "see" the Abomination of Desolation (Mat 24:15) that previously occurred within themselves when they were under Satan's influence. At this point, they have come out of Satan's deceptions. The knowledge of this truth will bring destruction to the "man of sin" who they had become in the apostate church.

This verse applies:

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (this is when the man of sin is cast into the Lake of Fire, Rev 19:20):

Now that the true Christ has been revealed to the believer, the next truth they will be able to receive is the truth that Christ is truly the Savior of the world. They will quickly learn this truth because they now know that mankind's salvation is totally in the hands of Christ and not in the individual's hand. And since Christ has said that He will save all mankind, they now have the necessary faith to believe Him.

I hope this helps a little.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Yes, I agree that everyone, WHILE they have breath, is sought after by God the Father, and for those He woos by His Holy Spirit, He gives (leads/points) them to Christ, of whom will "come into them", if they answer His calling.
However, it is WE who must open the door of our heart (our human will), and personally invite Christ into our life. It is then that THEY take up residence, being BOTH Jesus Himself, as well as the Father, for God the Father permanently abides/dwells WITHIN Christ. John 14:23, Rev. 3:20.

WITHOUT faith in the blood of Jesus' sacrifice for our covering, God the Father will not and CANNOT dwell within anyone of us alone by Himself, ever!
Therefore, since Pentecost, should it be that anyone who has died, without answering Jesus' calling to them, that He may dwell WITHIN them, they remain to be "condemned already", having no hope of ever entering into the KoG, though they spent their whole life in "church-ianity" running parallel with it. They never were "born again" by the Holy Spirit of God, and therefore THEY truly ARE "none of His".

Dear Earburner,
You are still relying on a mixture of man's works and faith for salvation. All that is needed for salvation are the works of Christ which He will do within mankind. After He does His works within a person, their heart and mind will be changed because the Spirit will cause them to "will and do of His good pleasure".

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Also, you said that "while they have breath" a person is sought after by God. After the bodily resurrection, all mankind will have breath again. Christ will then continue His work of saving mankind and will not stop until the last person is saved.

Joe

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
You are still relying on a mixture of man's works and faith for salvation. All that is needed for salvation are the works of Christ which He will do within mankind. After He does His works within a person, their heart and mind will be changed because the Spirit will cause them to "will and do of His good pleasure".

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure
Also, you said that "while they have breath" a person is sought after by God. After the bodily resurrection, all mankind will have breath again. Christ will then continue His work of saving mankind and will not stop until the last person is saved.

Joe

God the Father seeks those who will worship Him in Spirit and in truth [who is Jesus]. He is NOT SEEKING after those who refuse to repent towards Him, through faith in Jesus.

Rom. 11:13-23
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they [of Israel] abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
You are still relying on a mixture of man's works and faith for salvation. All that is needed for salvation are the works of Christ which He will do within mankind. After He does His works within a person, their heart and mind will be changed because the Spirit will cause them to "will and do of His good pleasure".

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Also, you said that "while they have breath" a person is sought after by God. After the bodily resurrection, all mankind will have breath again. Christ will then continue His work of saving mankind and will not stop until the last person is saved.

Joe

What you are saying is that God will save me, even though I am of "that spirit of antichrist".
Or even if I have been neither cold nor hot but rather Luke warm (indecisive about repentance towards God), and shall spit me out of his mouth, he will save me anyways.

I don't think that you are correctly understanding 1 Cor. 3:1-15. Paul was speaking to Born Again Christians, the "election of God", NOT to unsaved people.

 

[One 2 question]

As for the "thousand years", it is part of an analogy (not an actual event). The "thousand years" never actually happens in a literal sense. To understand what that analogy teaches, you must understand the spiritual meanings of the spirit word that the analogy uses. I explained the meaning of the "thousand years" in my last post so I won't do it again here.

You say that the 3 days in the grave was relating to an event so it can be taken literally but we can add a spiritual meaning which doesn't take away from the actual event. And you used the event of David killing Goliath as an example.

Why would you not accept equally that the 1,000 year dynasty of the King of kings over planet earth is literal event which one could apply and extract spiritual interpretation as well.

Types are useful. Parables are useful. But when applied to anything literal, like the temple that stood before Jesus and His audience, of which He used as a type, it didn't cause the temple to lose its significance, it didn't cease to literally exist.

My encouragement to you is to embrace both and be blessed by both.

Again, I love the way God uses types, I love parable as this is the main way the Spirit speaks to me throughout each day.

And thanks for your encouragement, I will reflect on the upcoming event of the reign of King Christ over this planet of ours and look for any types that the Spirit may reveal from this event.

 

[Earburner]

Also, you said that "while they have breath" a person is sought after by God. After the bodily resurrection, all mankind will have breath again. Christ will then continue His work of saving mankind and will not stop until the last person is saved.

Absolutely not!
When Jesus hung on the cross dieing, all of his mortal blood poured out of his wounded feet and hands, not to mention the wound by the spear in his side, whereby both blood and water gushed out. Lest you forget, "The life of His mortal flesh WAS in His INNOCENT blood." Lev. 17:11; Prov. 6:17.

When Jesus resurrected from the dead, into Immortality, there was NO Blood left in His veins. His heart pumped it all out.
Now I ask you, did Jesus need blood AGAIN, after having been made Immortal?
Our Blood carries Oxygen to every mortal fleshly organ to keep them alive. As a result, if we don't "breathe" oxygenated air, we die!
So now we must ask: does Jesus still breathe oxygenated air??....in Heaven (of which I speculate is simply another dimension)?

Moses, Who did not attend classes for Biology/Chemistry 101, did the best he could with his limited knowledge, calling oxygenated air "the breath of life". Gen.2:7; 6:17; 7:15, 22.

After Jesus' resurrection and ascension, He does NOT require Oxygenated air, in order to stay alive forever. He has NO BLOOD.
He said so:
Luke 24
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me HAVE.

See also: Eph. 5
[30] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Therefore, Jesus has the capacity to be Spirit, as well as Immortal flesh and bone, at will.

 

[FaithWillDo]

God the Father seeks those who will worship Him in Spirit and in truth [who is Jesus]. He is NOT SEEKING after those who refuse to repent towards Him, through faith in Jesus.

Rom. 11:13-23
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they [of Israel] abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Dear Earburner,
Again, Christ will change mankind's heart and mind by His spiritual work that He will do within each person who has ever lived. He is the cause of a person's repentance and faith. Mankind has no ability to repent or to have faith in Christ due to their pre-existing carnality. The carnal mind hates God and it veils the truth of God from their understanding. Mankind does not have a free will ability to repent or have faith in Christ - that is a deception from Satan.
Joe

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
Again, Christ will change mankind's heart and mind by His spiritual work that He will do within each person who has ever lived. He is the cause of a person's repentance and faith. Mankind has no ability to repent or to have faith in Christ due to their pre-existing carnality. The carnal mind hates God and it veils the truth of God from their understanding. Mankind does not have a free will ability to repent or have faith in Christ - that is a deception from Satan.
Joe

Since Jesus is the Mediator between God and fallen mankind, can you describe the word "covenant", and how it relates to
1. God,
2. Jesus and
3. ourselves?
I'm sure you can, but I'm not sure that you are relating with what is required of each, in order to enter into that covenant relationship of God.

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
Again, Christ will change mankind's heart and mind by His spiritual work that He will do within each person who has ever lived. He is the cause of a person's repentance and faith. Mankind has no ability to repent or to have faith in Christ due to their pre-existing carnality. The carnal mind hates God and it veils the truth of God from their understanding. Mankind does not have a free will ability to repent or have faith in Christ - that is a deception from Satan.
Joe

Similar to Adam and Eve, by our free will, we have the CHOICE to "believe", or to remain in "unbelief".
Rom. 11[23] And they also, if they [of Israel] abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
If they choose to abide "in unbelief": then God cannot and will not graff them in again.