DOES BELIEF THAT ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED MEAN WE CAN SIN?

[GodsGrace]

@ElectedbyHim

Now this "if is an "if and only if. The promise is that you will never fall and you will receive a rich welcome if and only if "you do these things. This rules out the possibility that you will never fall and you will receive a rich welcome without doing "these things. It must be true that if you do not do these things, then you will fall. If you do not do these things, then you will not receive a rich welcome. If it were possible for them to not do these things and still receive a rich welcome, then it makes no sense to warn them about it at all.
Applied to eternal security, this principle thus completely rules out the possibility of somebody getting saved, then going back out into sin and failing to do "these things, but still they never "fall and still they "receive a rich welcome into heaven. Anybody who gets saved, then fails to grow in grace, instead choosing to revert back to his old sinful lifestyle, has definitely fallen and will not be welcomed into heaven. If they make it to heaven anyway, living their sinful unrepentant lifestyle, then 2 Peter 1:10-11”and most of the rest of the New Testament”is a sham and a mockery.
There are many other such scriptures to which this principle of "if and only if applies. Revelation 2:10 promises, "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. This must mean, "I will give you a crown of life if and only if you are faithful until death. If you are not faithful until death”if you quit believing, if you quit doing the Lord's will, quit obeying and following His word”then it is pretty obvious that I will not give you a crown of life. If you could get this crown of life without being faithful until death, then it would not make sense for Jesus to hold this out as some kind of reward for faithfulness and good behavior.
In Revelation 3:1-5, Jesus speaks of some Christians and a church that has been spiritually alive (saved) but are "about to die (NIV). He states why: "I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of My God. However, He finds that a few Christians there have not "soiled or "defiled their garments, i.e., do not have sin in their lives. These He promises will "walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. Then He promises: "He that overcomes [i.e., maintains their deeds and lives of holiness] will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before My Father and His angels. So He promises to do three things”dress them in white, not blot out their names, and acknowledge them before God”if and only if they will overcome. What if they do not overcome? Then it logically follows that He will not dress them in white, He will blot out their names from the book of life, and He will not acknowledge knowing them before His Father. The promise is to overcomers only. What could be more plain and logical?
There is one more of these conditional statements found in Hebrews 3:14 (KJV): "For we are partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end. In other words, we are partakers in Christ if and only "if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first (NIV). Obviously, if we do not hold that first confidence, we will not be partakers in Christ. The promise is not just to everybody, but only to those who hold to their first confidence. Paul was writing to some Christians that were being sorely tested and persecuted, and were tempted to give up. Those who let go of their faith in Christ would lose their participation and fellowship with Him. This concept Paul repeated in chapter 10:32-39. He warned those Christians not to be of "those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

​

 

[GodsGrace]

@Eternally Grateful

The Historical and "Scriptural Basis For Eternal Security​

The doctrine of eternal security is generally attributed to John Calvin, whose followers are called Calvinists or members of the Reformed tradition. But even Calvinists acknowledge that much of their doctrine originates with St. Augustine of Hippo (Algeria in Northern Africa), the Catholic (or pre-Catholic) theologian of the 4th century (354-430). He did quite a bit of writing on "Original Sin, which the reformers, Martin Luther and John Calvin, both borrowed.
Calvin "systemized his beliefs in the Institutes of Religion, a rather large work that serves as the basis for what is now known as Calvinism. His teachings regarding salvation can be summarized with the following famous acronym representing the "Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP:

1. T = Total Depravity, also called "total inability," asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin (derived from Augustine's "original sin). People are not by nature inclined to love God but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. This eliminates "freewill (see below).
2. U = Unlimited Election asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself, not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Instead, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God sovereignly extends mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen.
3. L = Limited Atonement, also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement," asserts that Jesus' atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus' death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all.
4. I = Irresistible Grace, also called "efficacious grace," asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.
5. P = Perseverance of the Saints asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return to the faith.[1] This is the point known today as "Once Saved, Always Saved. They can never be lost.

Comparison among Protestants​

This table from Reformed Christianity - Wikipedia summarizes the classical views of three Protestant beliefs about salvation.

Topic​	Calvinism​	Lutheranism​	Arminianism​
Human will​	Total Depravity without free will permanently due to divine sovereignty​	Total Depravity without free will until spiritual regeneration​	Depravity does not prevent free will​
Election​	Unconditional election to salvation with those outside the elect foreordained to damnation (double-predestination)[35]​	Unconditional predestination to salvation for the elect​	Conditional election in view of foreseen faith or unbelief​
Justification​	Justification is limited to those predestined to salvation, completed at Christ's death​	Justification by faith alone, completed at Christ's death.​	Justification made possible for all through Christ's death, but only completed upon choosing faith in Jesus​
Conversion​	Monergistic, through the inner calling of the Holy Spirit, irresistible​	Monergistic, through the means of grace, resistible​	Synergistic, resistible due to the common grace of free will​
Preservation and apostasy​	Perseverance of the saints: the eternally elect in Christ will necessarily persevere in faith​	Falling away is possible, but God gives assurance of preservation.​	Preservation is conditional upon continued faith in Christ; with the possibility of a final apostasy.​

 

[GodsGrace]

@Eternally Grateful last of 4 pages


These doctrines have been argued among Protestants for several centuries. Presently there are Christians who call themselves "3-point, "4-point, and 5-point Calvinists. Some denominations (e.g., many Baptists) could be classified as "1-point Calvinists, simply because they usually reject all of the first four points and hold only to Point Five, the "Perseverance of the Saints, i.e., "once saved, always saved. But many major Calvinist teachers point out that Point Five is impossible without the other four points. They all stand or fall together.

The Surefire Proof That We Have Freewill​

It should be obvious that most of the above differences hinge on the issue of "freewill and the ability to choose morally. A great inconsistency arises when people want to believe in freewill, but then try to believe in eternal security also. The result then is that freewill allows a person to choose to believe in Christ and thereby be saved, but later choose not to believe in Christ but retain his salvation. And yet, by biblical definition, only a believer in Christ is saved. There simply is no salvation for those who do not believe in Christ. Salvation for unbelievers would contradict everything in the New Testament!
So how do we prove freewill? This is a surefire method:

• First of all, it is obvious that in the Garden of Eden, God gave humans the power and freewill to make a choice: To eat or not eat the fruit. Even Calvinism must admit this existence of freewill at the beginning.
• Adam and Eve chose to eat of the fruit, fell into sin, became depraved, etc. Now Calvinism says that this depravity was so total and complete that, since that time, "all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. That is, even if we still had freewill, that depraved freewill can by necessity choose only to go a downward way, an evil path, etc., and is completely unable to choose God.
• However, that is preposterous because thousands of years later, God Himself again gives the Israelites a chance to make a choice for Him and His way: "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days (Deuteronomy 30:15-20).
• It's pretty obvious here that the Lord God of heaven believes that these people actually are able to choose Him and His way. Otherwise, if their ability to choose God and righteousness was so impaired and "totally depraved, God would be grossly unfair and utterly mean-spirited to give them a "choice that they could not possibly make! He would be unrealistically expecting "blood out of a turnip, then judging and punishing the turnip for failing to do something it could not possibly do! And there are many other instances in the Bible where God gives fallen people a chance to exercise their freewill and expects them to choose Him. We can choose, and because of this, the whole first, foundational assumption of Calvinism, i.e., the "T in the TULIP, comes crashing down! And the rest of the theory falls with it.

and there's more.......but I didn't give the source...
just like you never do.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The Jews in Hebrews were being warned of apostacy.

I do not believe one can lose his salvation or renounce Christ.

If this is true, it is evidence that they were nevere truly regenerated.

1 Jonn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be manifested that they all are not of us.

I don not buy it and do not see it as Biblical.

To many Scriptures that say the opposite.

However, to each his own.

@DJT_47​

Can you share how you maintain your salvation?

What if you commit one small sin (lying), do you lose your salvation.

What is the process to get your salvation back?

Grace and peace to you.

If one was to turn back to the vomit, then they were not truly born again in fact !
Saved is abiding in Christ Jesus as you are one with him and he in you, period !

One does not maintain or work for your Salvation, it's a Gift ! A Gift to your Soul, you are connected ! linked up ! Not Lost. that's why one abides in our Saviour who is our Lord !
Do you do the works, no ! the works come from the Holy Spirit that is Christ Jesus within you, It is not of your own that you draw from at all, that is the issue.

When one gets a glimps of Light ? they agree regarding a point in the Bible, that is faith ! Faith on that issue ? and then another workings of faith on another point etc etc. but that is what the Bible calles Little faith ! and that is good but one can only deal with milk ! not solid food ? that is pointed out for very good reason !

One can have very good memory of Bible verses and spit out the virse and number ? but that does not truly mean that they truly understand the real issue, for most likely they are just indoctrinated on the subject in fact ! they demand that they are only right and will never bother to listen regardless because such is blind faith ? That is called carnal religious ! many Priest are just only that in fact. for they are just on the path of repenting of Sins only ? that's what they do ! that's the path that ervery religious Christian gets on or should get on ? for this is in hope to get to become truly born again !

The Repenting of Sins, if done correctly helps strengthen one !
If one never repents of Sin you will never move forward to deal with your Sins in fact ! so that is a dead end !

But when you are truly born again, then you have changed and are on the path, but you still Sin ! but you are not under the power of Sin in fact ! for you understand and can deal with Sin ? but before you did not truly have the power to deal with Sin. you may be tempted but you do have the keys to deal with such cunning. the school Master has gone and you are now incharge as you have growen matured !

 

[mailmandan]

1. I don't know any Christian that believes we could be saved by works.

Not genuine Christians, but "nominal" or pseudo-Christians believe it.

2. Paul is speaking about THE LAW.....he is NOT speaking about doing good works/deeds,
which is what Jesus spoke about.

So, you believe that when Paul mentions works, he is only talking about specific works of the law and never works in general? (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Did Paul say we are saved by good works or FOR good works in Ephesians 2:10? Also, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, can we dissect good works from the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works could a Christian accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) *NOWHERE does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith plus works of any kind.

Your posts speak as if we are not REQUIRED to do good works/deeds...
which, indeed, we are.

Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith but not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works.

So you don't believe in synergism?
That explains a lot.
This means that you THINK Jesus is going to pull all the weight for you.
It's known as Easy Believism or Cheap Grace.

Straw man argument. Perhaps you prefer hard believism/salvation by works in which grace is no longer grace. Does believing the gospel sound too easy for you? Christ's saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

Jesus said that if you want to follow Him..
you must pick up your cross daily.

Luke 9:23
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

That sounds like we're required TO DO something.
That sounds like synergism.

Following Jesus is how believers live the Christian life. That is doing something AFTER we have been saved through faith.

Jesus said that anyone that hears His words and act on them is a WISE MAN....
Matthew 7:24
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and ACTS on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

You'd have to explain WHAT WORDS Jesus is speaking of....
Since His teachings were all about WHAT we're supposed to do and how we're supposed to behave.

Jesus said that those that DO NOT ACT on them are FOOLS. Act is an action word....sounds like synergism.
Matthew 7:26
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

In Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works/law keeping, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

I believe it's best to build our house on the words of Jesus.
Here are some of His words:

1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Matthew 5:16
16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Jesus told us to follow His commandments.
According to your belief system,,,there are no commandments.

John 14:15
IF you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

This is what we are saved FOR.

Which commandments would those be?

The commandments listed in the new covenant for Christians. What do you believe it means to "keep" His commandments?

Is faith a work?
If it's a work, then it's doing something.
But Paul said that faith is NOT a work.

Faith is not simply just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Through faith we are trusting in Another's work. Christ's finished work of redemption. (Romans 3:24-28)

And that's the best you can do?
You think faith ALONE is going to save you?

Faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is going to save me. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. (James 2:14-24) Do you think works are going to save you?

CONTINUED..

 

[mailmandan]

That would nullify all of Jesus teachings.

Looks like you do.
Looks like you avoid Ephesians 2:10 which CLEARLY states that we are CREATED FOR GOOD WORKS.

I previously cited Ephesians 2:10 and clearly stated that we are saved FOR good works. Not to be confused with saved BY good works.

Doing GOOD WORKS is NOT following THE LAW.
There's a slight difference which does NOT show through in your posts.

Christians are not under the law but are under grace.

Let's see if we could get right down to the last line since you post as if every Christian that does not agree with whatever it is that you believe is dumb. It's rather DIFFICULT to know what exactly you believe since it's shrouded in mystery.

The Holy Spirit gives us understanding. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)

Answer this: Although it has never worked in the past because it would expose your TRUE belief...

IS IT NECESSARY TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION?

Necessary for what? To earn salvation? NO. Necessary to shine our light before men and glorify our Father in heaven? YES.

THE LOST HAVE NO NEED TO DO GOOD WORKS...
except of course to help other humans...
but it will NOT get them into heaven.

Amen.

Effect or no effect..
PLEASE answer the question above.

ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION?

As I already answered. To earn salvation? NO. To shine our light before men and glorify our Father in heaven? YES.

John 15:1
Those that do not produce good fruit WILL BE CUT AWAY.....

What is the heart of the reason why they do not produce good fruit? (Matthew 7:17) What is the difference between a good tree and a bad tree?

A. Is Jesus speaking of those that don't even BELIEVE in God...
B. or is He speaking to those that believe in God?

Sheep are believers. Goats are unbelievers. Now goats may believe in the existence of God (so do demons - James 2:19) but goats do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Hence, believers.

Be careful...it's a trick question.....

You seem to like trick questions.

If A then it's WORKS THAT WILL GET US TO HEAVEN.
If B then WORKS ARE NECESSARY.

Works do not get us to heaven, but they do accompany the kind of faith that does get us to heaven.

Sounds nice...go back to my A and B replies.
BUT here's what JESUS said.

John 5:27-29
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Believers have eternal life as a present possession (John 5:24) and shall not come into judgment but have passed from death into life. I often hear works-salvationists (especially Roman Catholics) cite John 5:28-29 in an effort to try and prove that man is saved by works and end up confusing 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. In John 5:28-29, *notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

Jesus is speaking above to those that believed to be saved.
He's stating that THOSE WHO DID GOOD DEEDS will go to a life of resurrection.

A good tree produces good fruit. Being a good tree in the first place is the heart of the issue. No good tree no good fruit.

Their GOOD DEEDS will lead them to a life of resurrection.

Their good deeds accompany their faith that leads them to a life of resurrection. Faith is the root of salvation and good deeds are the fruit.

HOW do we practice righteousness?

The idea of "practice" is to perform repeatedly and habitually, as one's lifestyle or bent of life.

HOW do we practice being RIGHT WITH GOD?

We are only made right with God through faith in Jesus Christ.

Is it by NOT doing good works?

We are not saved by good works so how can doing good works make us right with God?

And, remember, we're discussing BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS here....NOT the lost who are not REQUIRED to do good works.

Your sugar-coated double talk seems to culminate in salvation by faith AND good works. That's not what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10.

 

[MatthewG]

 

[mailmandan]

IF is a confirmation?
IF I go to school means that I'm going to school?????

IF INDEED means that it's a maybe yes or a maybe no?

IF confirms that faith was firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel to begin with, and they really have been reconciled. Again, it makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together all claiming to be genuine believers throughout the NT, throughout various churches today and throughout various Christian forum sites.

Proof again that a person reads scripture according to HIS BELIEF SYSTEM
NOT according to what the NT teaches.

I prefer exegesis over eisegesis.

IF INDEED WE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH.
means exactly what is written.

Exactly. Confirmation.

It means we MAY NOT CONTINUE in the faith.

Which would demonstrate that faith was not firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel to begin with. Just like in (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) for those who believed in vain.

This might help you to see to whom Paul is writing: Who are these saints and faithful brethren??
Colossians 1:1-2
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

All the NT writings are written to Christians but that does not mean that everyone in these large groups of professing Christians are all genuine Christians. Hence, the warnings. If you visited a church on Sunday (particularly a very large church) and the Pastor addressed the people in church that morning by saying, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" would you assume that EVERYONE attending church that morning MUST be a brother or sister in Christ? No deceived "nominal" Christians in the group?

Oh for goodness sake Dan...
I'm not even going to reply to this.

What is Pau writing about?
Is he not writing to persons that are saved???

Go to the entire scripture in that chapter and show us how Paul is speaking to a MAYBE Christian.

Again, all the NT writings are addressed to Christians but that does not mean that EVERYONE in a large group of professing Christians are ALL genuine Christians. The book of Hebrews is written to Christians, yet we those mixed in with the group who lacked faith in the gospel. (Hebrews 4:1-3) In Hebrews 10:39, we read about those who draw back to perdition and those who believe to the saving of the soul. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

I suppose some way has to be invented in order to acommodate those that believe as yourself....
that the lost were never saved to begin with.....
which is NOT what Jesus taught and which I've shown....but why believe Jesus?

Oh, the irony.

So THOSE THAT CONTINUE IN THE FAITH....
Do they HAVE faith or not?
WHAT are they continuing in exactly?

They continue in the Christian faith with authentic faith in Christ.

So if they do NOT CONTINUE....
sounds like they HAD FAITH...
but are not CONTINUING in it.

May sound like to you but obviously, faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Hence, failed to continue.

I agree that Paul is saying that some of them may not have taken the message of the gospel seriously.
He goes on to state what they must believe in order to be Christian.
Also, we can't take this to understand that Paul was not speaking to Christians in his letters....
he WAS speaking to Christians.

I already thoroughly covered this.

BTW,,,I agree with you understanding of Hebrews 6 re the Jews going back to Judaism/The Law.
I never use that as a verse to show that OSAS is not correct. (there are plenty other verses to do this).

In regard to Hebrews 6, see post #19 from the link below:

Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

The answer is yes, because believing on Jesus Christ as God's promised Savior is a CHOICE, not a forced decision. If someone who claims to have believed on Jesus Christ at some time later changes his/her mind, and falls away from Christ Jesus to another, then yes, they have lost... their...

www.christianityboard.com

New International Version
if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Those who do not continue demonstrate that their faith was not established and firm in the gospel to begin with. Simple.

 

[mailmandan]

Agreed.

So now you agree?

I agree with your first sentences.

Progress.

But as to your last sentences...
are you saying Jesus was wrong in Luke 8:13?

Jesus was not wrong. Jesus said believed for a while, but He did not say they were saved for a while. I already thoroughly covered this in post #118. Did you actually read everything I said or just skim over it? Not all belief is the same.

Was it not HE that stated that some BELIEVED FOR A WHILE?
Isn't BELIEF what makes one be saved?

BELIEF that is firmly rooted and established. Not shallow, temporary belief that has no root.

ANY belief is belief.

False. The belief in James 2:19 lacks the content of belief in Acts 16:31. Do you believe the demons are saved?

Some is temporary.

Because it lacks root.

What Paul is speaking of in your above explanation is not the same.
Believing in vain means they did not believe the truth....belief was in vain,

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. This is not saving belief.

but Paul clearly states this.

You cannot apply this to other times when the falling away from faith is discussed by Paul.

Falling away is different:

2 Corinthians 11:3
2For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

Notice it's the same message to the Corinthians.
Verse 2: They are BETHROTHED to Christ.....they are SAVED BELIEVERS that did not believe in vain.

Paul is afraid that EVEN THEY could be deceived as Eve was deceived.

There is a difference between falling away permanently and only temporarily.

We will be saved from the presence of sin at glorification?
I can't get into this right now. And, it's not pertinent to this discussion.

That may get a little deep for you.

Dan....
MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE.

No explanation needed.
IF you're one of Jesus' sheep,
you will hear His voice.

Amen. Exactly what I said in post #117.

Your explanation is not a good one.
See 1 Cor 2:14 same idea.
The natural man does not accept/understand the things of God....

Are you calling me the natural man?

ONLY THE SAVED HEAR JESUS' VOICE.

Amen! I hear His voice loud and clear.

OK. It's stating HOW one could fall away...

BUT
It is still speaking about FALLING AWAY...

It is POSSIBLE to fall away....
the reasons are numerous.

(I'm not Catholic so I don't care re priests not getting married).

Agreed....departing from the practices is giving heed to deceiving spirits...
again...it is POSSIBLE to depart from the faith.....or should we say FAITH to distinguish?
If we believe deceiving spirits...do we still have FAITH? Let alone THE faith? (Christianity's tenets).

I already thoroughly covered this in post #117.

And, are there "nominal" Christians??

Absolutely. Do you believe that EVERYONE who claims to be a genuine Christian truly is a genuine Christian? You would be completely naive if you answered yes.

YOU are the one that has asked me HOW MANY good works we have to do to be saved.
If I don't do enough works....does that make me a nominal Christian?

How many Christians would do no good works at all? All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

No such animal Dan.
A person is either a Christian or they're not.

A "nominal" (in name only) Christian is someone who professes to be a Christian but is not. There is such an animal. There are plenty of them, especially in various false religions and cults. Surely, you are not this naive.

Oh for goodness sake Dan.
The clergy were getting married until at least 1,200AD.

Yet things change and there were other false doctrines that crept in earlier.

In 1 John 2:19 John was referring to gnostics that had infiltrated the church.
Do a study on this....I'm not here to teach you church history.

So, only gnostics are capable of going out from us but not being of us?

Plus, why are you discussing Catholicism?

Because it teaches a lot of false doctrine, provides good examples for this discussion and I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church. Does Catholicism strike a nerve with you?

 

[GodsGrace]

Not genuine Christians, but "nominal" or pseudo-Christians believe it.

What is a nominal Christian?
A person is either a Christian or they're not.
If they're a nominal Christian,,,then they're a Christian that may not be very mature.
If you mean IN NAME ONLY....that would have to be discussed and I don't have time to do that.

So, you believe that when Paul mentions works, he is only talking about specific works of the law and never works in general? (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Did Paul say we are saved by good works or FOR good works in Ephesians 2:10? Also, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, can we dissect good works from the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

Paul stated that we cannot be saved by works, meaning the WORKS OF THE LAW.
Nowhere in the NT did any writer state that we are not to do good works.

Yes. James is speaking about doing good works when he speaks of giving food or clothing to the poor.
What do YOU think a good work is?

So it would be BREAKING THE SECOND COMMANMENT.
Right!

It would be NOT DOING good works.

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works could a Christian accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) *NOWHERE does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith plus works of any kind.

None.
So you DO agree that we're do obey Jesus and do good works?

Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith but not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works.

Wrong. It IS the ESSENCE of faith.
ALL the NT writers speak of doing good works.
Paul's letter are replete with verses....

2 Corinthians 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Galatians 6:7-9
7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

1 Timothy 6:18
18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

There are many more.
How many verses do you need to convince you that we are required to do good works?

Could YOU post some that say that faith alone is all that is required and no good works are needed?
No.
You cannot.

So why do you fight so hard re this?
It's simply what the NT teaches.

James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgement.

Straw man argument. Perhaps you prefer hard believism/salvation by works in which grace is no longer grace. Does believing the gospel sound too easy for you? Christ's saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

No strawman.
YOU are teaching easy believism, cheap grace.
NOWHERE in the NT are we taught that grace is sufficient in itself.
Grace is provided for us to ENABLE us to do what we must do for God.
The NT speaks of a measure of faith...this is what it means.

Romans 12:3-4
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,

Grace is given so that we can complete our function,,,whatever that may be.

page 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

@mailmandan

Following Jesus is how believers live the Christian life. That is doing something AFTER we have been saved through faith.

THIS is your reply to Luke 9:23?

OK...not the correct answer, but I'll ask you this then:

What does following Jesus mean?

In Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works/law keeping, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Sweet replies Dan.
But what does it mean to ACT on the words of Jesus as Matthew 7:24-27 states?
WHY is one a wise man and one is a foolish man?

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

This is eisegesis and I think you know better.

So how about posting Matthew 7:22-23 and show EXACTLY where all that stuff you added to those verses is stated?

Matthew 7:22-23
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

1. Where in the above does it state anything about self-righteousness?
2. Where does it state anything about outward deeds?
3. Where does it state anything about a personal relationship?


Here's what it states:

Jesus NEVER KNEW THEM
because
THEY PRACTICED LAWLESSNESS.

A person could even do miracles in Jesus' name,
but if they PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS,,,,,they are not in a relationship with Jesus.

We should NOT add to scripture...
Just as John warned us.

*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

ooops. More eisegesis.
Please post the verse/s where your above statement is made by Jesus.

1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

This is what we are saved FOR.

So then you're saying that WE ARE saved for doing good works?
Jesus said to do good works....not me.

Also note that 1 Corinthians 3:10 states that we should be careful HOW WE BUILD on that foundation...
This, BTW, happens to be the theme of 1 Cor 3.

1 Corinthians 3:10
10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

Do we properly build by teaching incorrect doctrine?
It always sounds like you're going against what Jesus taught and are propagating that no works are necessary in the Christian faith.
This is the opposite of the truth which Jesus taught, and Paul and every other writer.

The commandments listed in the new covenant for Christians. What do you believe it means to "keep" His commandments?

No reply for you.
We've both been Christian for many years.
If YOU don't know by now.....
And if you think I don't know...
well, why discuss?

Faith is not simply just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Through faith we are trusting in Another's work. Christ's finished work of redemption. (Romans 3:24-28)

Dan...
FAITH IS NOT A WORK.
Then you post Romans 3:24-28
???

Faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is going to save me. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. (James 2:14-24) Do you think works are going to save you?

CONTINUED..

YOU are the one arguing against works...
NOT ME!

I maintain that faith without works is a dead faith. James 2:17
A useless faith. James 2:20


A faith that Jesus did NOT preach but came into vogue very recently...
Any idea that came into being recently,,,,maybe the 1800's or even sooner,
is most probably is heretical idea.
JWs
Mormonism
7th Day Adventists
etc.

 

[mailmandan]

What is a nominal Christian?
A person is either a Christian or they're not.
If they're a nominal Christian,,,then they're a Christian that may not be very mature.
If you mean IN NAME ONLY....that would have to be discussed and I don't have time to do that.

I said IN NAME ONLY. Not a genuine believer but a make believer.

Paul stated that we cannot be saved by works, meaning the WORKS OF THE LAW.

Not merely specific works of the law but works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9)

Nowhere in the NT did any writer state that we are not to do good works.

I never said otherwise. Ephesians 2:10 - We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Yes. James is speaking about doing good works when he speaks of giving food or clothing to the poor.
What do YOU think a good work is?

James gives a good example of what a good work is in James 2:15-16. Good works are morally right and beneficial to others.

So it would be BREAKING THE SECOND COMMANMENT.
Right!

It would be NOT DOING good works.

To neglect a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

None.
So you DO agree that we're do obey Jesus and do good works?

Yes, that is what we are saved FOR. We are saved to serve and not saved to sit.

Wrong. It IS the ESSENCE of faith.

Wrong. That critical error is what I was taught in the Roman Catholic church and that error culminates in salvation by works and works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL.

I was recently discussing faith and works with a Roman Catholic on a different Christian forum and here is what he said to me below:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

That is absolutely false. Roman Catholics basically teach that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and then those works become meritorious in receiving salvation. Roman Catholics end up re-defining faith to "include" works and end up trying to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, if someone asked me what faith is, I would have basically said, faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works, which is incorrect. Faith is the substance/certainty/assurance of things hoped for, the evidence/conviction/proof of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)

ALL the NT writers speak of doing good works.
Paul's letter are replete with verses....

Yet none of those verses teach that works are the very essence of faith or the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Compare with 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Galatians 6:7-9
7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sows to his own corrupt, flesh which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Only genuine believers sow to the Spirit and from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1 Timothy 6:18
18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

There are many more.
How many verses do you need to convince you that we are required to do good works?

Doing good works is our reasonable service as Christians and is what we are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:19) but you could never do enough good works to earn your salvation. That is my point.

 

[mailmandan]

Could YOU post some that say that faith alone is all that is required and no good works are needed?
No.
You cannot.

The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, baptism? Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone which is not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6) We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us. (Titus 3:5) God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works. (2 Timothy 1:9)

So why do you fight so hard re this?
It's simply what the NT teaches.

I'm not fighting against anything.Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

No strawman.
YOU are teaching easy believism, cheap grace.

It's a strawman argument. Salvation by believing the gospel (Romans 1:16) sounds too easy for you so you make it hard. You prefer hard believism/salvation by works/cheap price that Jesus paid to save us. That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to believe in/trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21) Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Jesus Christ through faith.

NOWHERE in the NT are we taught that grace is sufficient in itself.
Grace is provided for us to ENABLE us to do what we must do for God.

Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; 9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] (AMPC)

The NT speaks of a measure of faith...this is what it means.

Romans 12:3-4
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,

Grace is given so that we can complete our function,,,whatever that may be.

God has granted a differing measure of faith to His children. This is not about we must receive the right measure or else we won't be saved. I see it as a special endowment of faith to accomplish certain tasks in ministry. The object of our faith in receiving salvation is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan

THIS is your reply to Luke 9:23?

OK...not the correct answer, but I'll ask you this then:

What does following Jesus mean?

So, living the Christian life is not about following Jesus, according to you? It's all summed up in loving God and loving others as ourselves. We deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him. We keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, we practice righteousness and not sin, we forgive others etc.. Further examples:

1 Thessalonians 5:14 -Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Sweet replies Dan.
But what does it mean to ACT on the words of Jesus as Matthew 7:24-27 states?
WHY is one a wise man and one is a foolish man?

I already thoroughly explained this to you. I feel like much of what I share with you just goes right over your head.

This is eisegesis and I think you know better.

Eisegesis would culminate in salvation by works.

So how about posting Matthew 7:22-23 and show EXACTLY where all that stuff you added to those verses is stated?

Matthew 7:22-23
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

1. Where in the above does it state anything about self-righteousness?
2. Where does it state anything about outward deeds?
3. Where does it state anything about a personal relationship?

In regard to Matthew 7:22, Jesus never knew these many people (vs. 23) which means they were never saved. These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and not in Christ alone. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ - Romans 3:24-28; Philippians 3:9) was still stained with sin. Hence, workers of iniquity/practice lawlessness.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Instead of Lord, Lord, didn't WE, the correct answer for these many people in Matthew 7:22 would have been Lord, Lord, didn't YOU die for our sins, were buried and rise again the third day to provide for us eternal life? We trust in you alone as the all-sufficient means of our salvation.

In regard to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church) I read Matthew 7:22 and was astonished! I remember thinking to myself, these many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of the natural man who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works.

Here's what it states:

Jesus NEVER KNEW THEM
because
THEY PRACTICED LAWLESSNESS.

Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. They practiced lawlessness BECAUSE they were not saved. You put the cart before the horse. John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge.

A person could even do miracles in Jesus' name,
but if they PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS,,,,,they are not in a relationship with Jesus.

You make it sound like they were genuine believers but they practiced lawlessness. They practiced lawlessness because they were not genuine believers.

We should NOT add to scripture...

Then stop doing it.

Just as John warned us.

ooops. More eisegesis.
Please post the verse/s where your above statement is made by Jesus.

So then you're saying that WE ARE saved for doing good works?
Jesus said to do good works....not me.

Do you actually believe that the foolish man who does not put the words of Jesus into practice in Matthew 7:26 represents a genuine believer? Wise and foolish are being contrasted here. Also see 1 John 3:10. Is Ephesians 2:8-10 really that hard for you to understand?

Also note that 1 Corinthians 3:10 states that we should be careful HOW WE BUILD on that foundation...
This, BTW, happens to be the theme of 1 Cor 3.

1 Corinthians 3:10
10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

Do we properly build by teaching incorrect doctrine?
It always sounds like you're going against what Jesus taught and are propagating that no works are necessary in the Christian faith.

I never said that works are unnecessary in the Christian faith/Christian life. I simply said we are not saved by works but FOR good works. I'm not against the teachings of Jesus. I'm against teaching a false gospel.

This is the opposite of the truth which Jesus taught, and Paul and every other writer.

No reply for you.
We've both been Christian for many years.
If YOU don't know by now.....
And if you think I don't know...
well, why discuss?

Dan...
FAITH IS NOT A WORK.
Then you post Romans 3:24-28

When did I say that faith was a work? Paul makes a distinction between faith and works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

???

YOU are the one arguing against works...
NOT ME!

Do you comprehend anything I say? I'm arguing against salvation by works but not against producing good works as a Christian. You really seem to like building a straw man and then tearing it down.

I maintain that faith without works is a dead faith. James 2:17
A useless faith. James 2:20

I maintain the same. In regard to "faith without works is dead," (James 2:20) James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

A faith that Jesus did NOT preach but came into vogue very recently...
Any idea that came into being recently,,,,maybe the 1800's or even sooner,
is most probably is heretical idea.
JWs
Mormonism
7th Day Adventists
etc.

I certainly do not uphold the belief systems of JW's, Mormonism or SDA's.

 

[A Freeman]

Is it humble to assume one is "saved"?

Wouldn't making such an assumption actually prevent someone from striving for perfection, as we all should be doing?

Matthew 5:43-48
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the tax-collectors the same?
5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the tax-collectors so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.

Why would anyone assume we can mark our own report cards? Isn't Christ going to judge each and every one of us on the Last Day (John 5:22), according to our works (Matt. 16:27)?

 

[St. SteVen]

Is it humble to assume one is "saved"? ...
Why would anyone assume we can mark our own report cards? ...

Wow.
So now assurance of salvation is a lack of humility? - LOL
Mark our own "report cards"?
It seems you are preaching salvation by works. Is that right?

How are such things measured?
How could you assume that you have enough works to be saved?
Could you have done more? (of course) Did you do enough? (who knows?)
Just have to wait and see? What if you come up short? (toast)

[

 

[mailmandan]

Luke 18:9 - Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous,  and despised others; 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[St. SteVen]

Matthew 5:43-48
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the tax-collectors the same?
5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the tax-collectors so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.

I love this scripture. But probably for a completely different reason than you might.

Jesus taught us that loving your enemies is godly behavior.
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect." - vs 48

That being the case, what will God do with his enemies?

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[GodsGrace]

I said IN NAME ONLY. Not a genuine believer but a make believer.

Not merely specific works of the law but works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9)

I never said otherwise. Ephesians 2:10 - We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

James gives a good example of what a good work is in James 2:15-16. Good works are morally right and beneficial to others.

To neglect a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

Yes, that is what we are saved FOR. We are saved to serve and not saved to sit.

Wrong. That critical error is what I was taught in the Roman Catholic church and that error culminates in salvation by works and works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL.

I was recently discussing faith and works with a Roman Catholic on a different Christian forum and here is what he said to me below:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

That is absolutely false. Roman Catholics basically teach that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and then those works become meritorious in receiving salvation. Roman Catholics end up re-defining faith to "include" works and end up trying to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, if someone asked me what faith is, I would have basically said, faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works, which is incorrect. Faith is the substance/certainty/assurance of things hoped for, the evidence/conviction/proof of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)

Yet none of those verses teach that works are the very essence of faith or the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

Compare with 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sows to his own corrupt, flesh which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Only genuine believers sow to the Spirit and from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Doing good works is our reasonable service as Christians and is what we are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:19) but you could never do enough good works to earn your salvation. That is my point.

Hey Dan...
Paul meant general types of work must be done.
It's The Law that we don't follow.

Anyway, I read the above, and you know I won't agree.
I guess everyone understands scripture their very own way.

I'm not responding because I'm getting tired of this and I'm taking a
break...a very long break...maybe permanent. We'll see.

I just want to leave you with this idea.....
The church has been around for 2 thousand years.
All this stuff we debate has come about in the last 4 or 5 hundred years...
and some of the stuff we debate came about just about 2 hundred years ago.
OSAS comes from the reformed belief that God predestines every person to heaven
or hell and so the have PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS. Guess IF God chose them,
then He'll keep them saved. This isn't what John Calvin taught..at least not compeltely.
But I'm not getting into that either. Think of the JWs, Mormonism, Adventists, and more.
The theologians before the reformation could not have all been wrong about everything.

I do want to wish you a joyous Christmas and also to your family.
GG

 

[GodsGrace]

Is it humble to assume one is "saved"?

Wouldn't making such an assumption actually prevent someone from striving for perfection, as we all should be doing?

Matthew 5:43-48
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the tax-collectors the same?
5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the tax-collectors so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.

Why would anyone assume we can mark our own report cards? Isn't Christ going to judge each and every one of us on the Last Day (John 5:22), according to our works (Matt. 16:27)?

Just feel on this A Freeman...
of course you're right.
Jesus did a lot.
Some don't feel they need to do anything at all.

So now your going to get some dumb questions,
like in post 156.
I'm tired of dumb questions...so I'm leaving for a bit.
Have a joyous Christmas!
GG