DOES BELIEF THAT ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED MEAN WE CAN SIN?

[GodsGrace]

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise, grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise, work is no longer work.

1. I don't know any Christian that believes we could be saved by works.
2. Paul is speaking about THE LAW.....he is NOT speaking about doing good works/deeds,
which is what Jesus spoke about.

Your posts speak as if we are not REQUIRED to do good works/deeds...
which, indeed, we are.

When did I say that?

I was speaking to two members....it might not have been you.

Saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) You can't have it both ways.

So you don't believe in synergism?
That explains a lot.
This means that you THINK Jesus is going to pull all the weight for you.
It's known as Easy Believism or Cheap Grace.

Jesus said that if you want to follow Him..
you must pick up your cross daily.

Luke 9:23
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

That sounds like we're required TO DO something.
That sounds like synergism.

Jesus said that anyone that hears His words and act on them is a WISE MAN....
Matthew 7:24
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and ACTS on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

You'd have to explain WHAT WORDS Jesus is speaking of....
Since His teachings were all about WHAT we're supposed to do and how we're supposed to behave.

Jesus said that those that DO NOT ACT on them are FOOLS. Act is an action word....sounds like synergism.
Matthew 7:26
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.


I believe it's best to build our house on the words of Jesus.
Here are some of His words:

Matthew 5:16
16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Jesus told us to follow His commandments.
According to your belief system,,,there are no commandments.

John 14:15
IF you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Which commandments would those be?

Who said that? Is choosing to place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation doing nothing?

Is faith a work?
If it's a work, then it's doing something.
But Paul said that faith is NOT a work.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

And that's the best you can do?
You think faith ALONE is going to save you?

That would nullify all of Jesus teachings.

I don't pit what we are by with what we are saved for against each other. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Looks like you do.
Looks like you avoid Ephesians 2:10 which CLEARLY states that we are CREATED FOR GOOD WORKS.

Doing GOOD WORKS is NOT following THE LAW.
There's a slight difference which does NOT show through in your posts.

Sure. After we have been saved through faith.

WHO is talking about doing good works BEFORE salvation?
Do the LOST need to do good works?

Let's see if we could get right down to the last line since you post as if every Christian that does not agree with whatever it is that you believe is dumb. It's rather DIFFICULT to know what exactly you believe since it's shrouded in mystery.

Answer this: Although it has never worked in the past because it would expose your TRUE belief...

IS IT NECESSARY TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION?

Looks like a yes or no answer.
Here's mine:
YES.

According to what Jesus taught.

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

This is what we are saved FOR and not by.

Dan...
NOBODY is speaking about the BEFORE.
Get this straight:

THE LOST HAVE NO NEED TO DO GOOD WORKS...
except of course to help other humans...
but it will NOT get them into heaven.

So, perhaps, we could move on?

After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" may seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. Yet scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance-based salvation, but salvation-based performance.

I'm not repeating.
I, and others that believe as I do...THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE....
are NOT SPEAKING OF THE UNSAVED.

Effect or no effect..
PLEASE answer the question above.

ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION?

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the sheep.

Nice. So why post as if fruit is not necessary?
Why not STOP speaking about dead persons who are not REQUIRED to do good works?

John 15:1
Those that do not produce good fruit WILL BE CUT AWAY.....

A. Is Jesus speaking of those that don't even BELIEVE in God...
B. or is He speaking to those that believe in God?

Be careful...it's a trick question.....

If A then it's WORKS THAT WILL GET US TO HEAVEN.
If B then WORKS ARE NECESSARY.

Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness of God by faith. (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9) When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow. So, it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works done in love (faith works through love - Galatians 5:6) which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life.

Sounds nice...go back to my A and B replies.
BUT here's what JESUS said.

John 5:27-29
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Jesus is speaking above to those that believed to be saved.
He's stating that THOSE WHO DID GOOD DEEDS will go to a life of resurrection.

Their GOOD DEEDS will lead them to a life of resurrection.

*Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

HOW do we practice righteousness?
HOW do we practice being RIGHT WITH GOD?

Is it by NOT doing good works?

And, remember, we're discussing BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS here....NOT the lost who are not REQUIRED to do good works.

 

[GodsGrace]

IF is a confirmation.

IF is a confirmation?
IF I go to school means that I'm going to school?????

IF INDEED means that it's a maybe yes or a maybe no?

Proof again that a person reads scripture according to HIS BELIEF SYSTEM
NOT according to what the NT teaches.

IF INDEED WE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH.
means exactly what is written.

It means we MAY NOT CONTINUE in the faith.

This might help you to see to whom Paul is writing: Who are these saints and faithful brethren??
Colossians 1:1-2
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

The word "IF" here is a confirmation, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith." That is, continuance would show that the person's faith was firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel to begin with, and they really have been reconciled.

Oh for goodness sake Dan...
I'm not even going to reply to this.

What is Pau writing about?
Is he not writing to persons that are saved???

Go to the entire scripture in that chapter and show us how Paul is speaking to a MAYBE Christian.

It makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith demonstrate thereby that they are genuine believers.

I suppose some way has to be invented in order to acommodate those that believe as yourself....
that the lost were never saved to begin with.....
which is NOT what Jesus taught and which I've shown....but why believe Jesus?

So THOSE THAT CONTINUE IN THE FAITH....
Do they HAVE faith or not?
WHAT are they continuing in exactly?

So if they do NOT CONTINUE....
sounds like they HAD FAITH...
but are not CONTINUING in it.

Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

I agree that Paul is saying that some of them may not have taken the message of the gospel seriously.
He goes on to state what they must believe in order to be Christian.
Also, we can't take this to understand that Paul was not speaking to Christians in his letters....
he WAS speaking to Christians.

Let's not get the two ideas conflated....

In Colossians 1:23 there is no doubt that Paul meant that IF they continued...
following is a list to clarify the meaning....

BTW,,,I agree with you understanding of Hebrews 6 re the Jews going back to Judaism/The Law.
I never use that as a verse to show that OSAS is not correct. (there are plenty other verses to do this).

New International Version
if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

New Living Translation
But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed as God’s servant to proclaim it.

English Standard Version
if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Berean Standard Bible
if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Berean Literal Bible
if indeed you continue in the faith, established and firm, and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, having been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, of which I Paul have become a minister.

King James Bible
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

New King James Version
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

New American Standard Bible
if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

NASB 1995
if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

NASB 1977
if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Amplified Bible
[and He will do this] if you continue in the faith, well-grounded and steadfast, and not shifting away from the [confident] hope [that is a result] of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which [gospel] I, Paul, was made a minister.


American Standard Version
if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

Contemporary English Version
But you must stay deeply rooted and firm in your faith. You must not give up the hope you received when you heard the good news. It was preached to everyone on earth, and I myself have become a servant of this message.

English Revised Version
if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is on the condition that you continue in faith without being moved from the solid foundation of the hope that the Good News contains. You've heard this Good News of which I, Paul, became a servant. It has been spread throughout all creation under heaven.

Good News Translation
You must, of course, continue faithful on a firm and sure foundation, and must not allow yourselves to be shaken from the hope you gained when you heard the gospel. It is of this gospel that I, Paul, became a servant--this gospel which has been preached to everybody in the world.

International Standard Version
However, you must remain firmly established and steadfast in the faith, without being moved from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.



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[FearTheLord]

First off "faith without works" is from James. James was writing to the scattered Jews not the Body of Christ.

Are you a hyperdispensationalist?

 

[Doug]

Are you a hyperdispensationalist?

I am a dispensationalist not hyper as from my knowledge they say only Paul's prison epistles from prison are for the Body of Christ
I also hold to right division

 

[FearTheLord]

I am a dispensationalist not hyper as from my knowledge they say only Paul's prison epistles from prison are for the Body of Christ
I also hold to right division

James was addressing believers in Christ. That means they were in the Body of Christ. To say that they weren't is typically a hyperdispensationalist claim.

In my Dispensationalist years, I always acknowledged that James was addressing members of the Body of Christ. He used Mosaic terminology due to their Israelite background, but they were in the Body of Christ no less. James taught the exact same gospel that Paul taught.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is about dividing the Spirit from the letter of the Law. It's not really about dispensations. Dispensations, or ages, are a consequence of dividing the Spirit from the letter.

 

[Doug]

James was addressing believers in Christ. That means they were in the Body of Christ.

[Jas 1:1 KJV] 1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

I am not being argumentative but merely expressing my understanding I appreciate your courtesy

James says who he talking to which is the twelve tribes

 

[Doug]

James taught the exact same gospel that Paul taught.

Please give me a verse

 

[Doug]

Rightly dividing the word of truth is about dividing the Spirit from the letter of the Law. It's not really about dispensations. Dispensations, or ages, are a consequence of dividing the Spirit from the letter.

Rightly dividing is acknowledging how God is dealing with mankind in certain times, his purpose. his audience and what and where we get our commands and instructions and doctrine

 

[FearTheLord]

[Jas 1:1 KJV] 1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

I am not being argumentative but merely expressing my understanding I appreciate your courtesy

James says who he talking to which is the twelve tribes

Were James' audience believers in Christ?

 

[FearTheLord]

Rightly dividing is acknowledging how God is dealing with mankind in certain times, his purpose. his audience and what and where we get our commands and instructions and doctrine

That's a bit of an assumption. Paul never explained in his epistle to Timothy exactly what he meant by "rightly dividing the word of truth"; but we do know that the juxtaposition of the Letter of the Law vs the Spirit was a dominant theme in most of Paul's epistles.

[2Co 3:5-6 NASB95] 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as [coming] from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate [as] servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
​

It's much more likely then that right division is understanding the mysteries hidden in the typology of the Law and Prophets. This is something that Jesus taught to his 11 disciples leading up to Pentecost. It was not unique to Paul's ministry. Paul simply wrote more prolifically about these mysteries.

Again, the dispensations/ages are a consequence of the mysteries.

 

[Doug]

Were James' audience believers in Christ?

They believed on the name of Jesus that he was Christ. Son of God they were the little flock They believed the gospel of the kingdom
Both the remnant of Israel and the Body of Christ believe on the Lord but the Body of Christ believes Paul's gospel

 

[GodsGrace]

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).

Agreed.

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This does not mean flawlessly obey the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law. Only Jesus Christ has done that. Saving belief continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

I agree with your first sentences.
But as to your last sentences...
are you saying Jesus was wrong in Luke 8:13?
Was it not HE that stated that some BELIEVED FOR A WHILE?
Isn't BELIEF what makes one be saved?

ANY belief is belief.
Some is temporary.

What Paul is speaking of in your above explanation is not the same.
Believing in vain means they did not believe the truth....belief was in vain,
but Paul clearly states this.

You cannot apply this to other times when the falling away from faith is discussed by Paul.

Falling away is different:

2 Corinthians 11:3
2For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

Notice it's the same message to the Corinthians.
Verse 2: They are BETHROTHED to Christ.....they are SAVED BELIEVERS that did not believe in vain.

Paul is afraid that EVEN THEY could be deceived as Eve was deceived.

There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin. (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin. (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin. (glorification)

This is true of all genuine believers.

We will be saved from the presence of sin at glorification?
I can't get into this right now. And, it's not pertinent to this discussion.

In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand) His sheep have eternal security. In contrast with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)

Dan....
MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE.

No explanation needed.
IF you're one of Jesus' sheep,
you will hear His voice.

Your explanation is not a good one.
See 1 Cor 2:14 same idea.
The natural man does not accept/understand the things of God....

ONLY THE SAVED HEAR JESUS' VOICE.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, (sounds like Roman Catholicism) and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

OK. It's stating HOW one could fall away...

BUT
It is still speaking about FALLING AWAY...

It is POSSIBLE to fall away....
the reasons are numerous.

(I'm not Catholic so I don't care re priests not getting married).

The words "the faith" here in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless, will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again.

Agreed....departing from the practices is giving heed to deceiving spirits...
again...it is POSSIBLE to depart from the faith.....or should we say FAITH to distinguish?
If we believe deceiving spirits...do we still have FAITH? Let alone THE faith? (Christianity's tenets).

And, are there "nominal" Christians??
YOU are the one that has asked me HOW MANY good works we have to do to be saved.
If I don't do enough works....does that make me a nominal Christian?

No such animal Dan.
A person is either a Christian or they're not.

In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced by the Roman Catholic church in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids its clergy to marry. This same church has other doctrines of demons such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity etc..

CONTINUED..

Oh for goodness sake Dan.
The clergy were getting married until at least 1,200AD.

In 1 John 2:19 John was referring to gnostics that had infiltrated the church.
Do a study on this....I'm not here to teach you church history.

Plus, why are you discussing Catholicism?

@mailmandan
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[Doug]

That's a bit of an assumption. Paul never explained in his epistle to Timothy exactly what he meant by "rightly dividing the word of truth"; but we do know that the juxtaposition of the Letter of the Law vs the Spirit was a dominant theme in most of Paul's epistles.

[2Co 3:6 KJV] 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

I think this verse is dealing with their being able ministers. They would not be teaching the covenant that was made to Israel based on the law and prophets. but rather The Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

This is an example of right division but not limited to just this

 

[MA2444]

1. I don't know any Christian that believes we could be saved by works.
2. Paul is speaking about THE LAW.....he is NOT speaking about doing good works/deeds,
which is what Jesus spoke about.

Your posts speak as if we are not REQUIRED to do good works/deeds...
which, indeed, we are.


I was speaking to two members....it might not have been you.


So you don't believe in synergism?
That explains a lot.
This means that you THINK Jesus is going to pull all the weight for you.
It's known as Easy Believism or Cheap Grace.

Jesus said that if you want to follow Him..
you must pick up your cross daily.

Luke 9:23
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

That sounds like we're required TO DO something.
That sounds like synergism.

Jesus said that anyone that hears His words and act on them is a WISE MAN....
Matthew 7:24
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and ACTS on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

You'd have to explain WHAT WORDS Jesus is speaking of....
Since His teachings were all about WHAT we're supposed to do and how we're supposed to behave.

Jesus said that those that DO NOT ACT on them are FOOLS. Act is an action word....sounds like synergism.
Matthew 7:26
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.


I believe it's best to build our house on the words of Jesus.
Here are some of His words:

Matthew 5:16
16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Jesus told us to follow His commandments.
According to your belief system,,,there are no commandments.

John 14:15
IF you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Which commandments would those be?



Is faith a work?
If it's a work, then it's doing something.
But Paul said that faith is NOT a work.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

And that's the best you can do?
You think faith ALONE is going to save you?

That would nullify all of Jesus teachings.

Looks like you do.
Looks like you avoid Ephesians 2:10 which CLEARLY states that we are CREATED FOR GOOD WORKS.

Doing GOOD WORKS is NOT following THE LAW.
There's a slight difference which does NOT show through in your posts.


WHO is talking about doing good works BEFORE salvation?
Do the LOST need to do good works?

Let's see if we could get right down to the last line since you post as if every Christian that does not agree with whatever it is that you believe is dumb. It's rather DIFFICULT to know what exactly you believe since it's shrouded in mystery.

Answer this: Although it has never worked in the past because it would expose your TRUE belief...

IS IT NECESSARY TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION?

Looks like a yes or no answer.
Here's mine:
YES.

According to what Jesus taught.

Dan...
NOBODY is speaking about the BEFORE.
Get this straight:

THE LOST HAVE NO NEED TO DO GOOD WORKS...
except of course to help other humans...
but it will NOT get them into heaven.

So, perhaps, we could move on?


I'm not repeating.
I, and others that believe as I do...THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE....
are NOT SPEAKING OF THE UNSAVED.

Effect or no effect..
PLEASE answer the question above.

ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION?

Nice. So why post as if fruit is not necessary?
Why not STOP speaking about dead persons who are not REQUIRED to do good works?

John 15:1
Those that do not produce good fruit WILL BE CUT AWAY.....

A. Is Jesus speaking of those that don't even BELIEVE in God...
B. or is He speaking to those that believe in God?

Be careful...it's a trick question.....

If A then it's WORKS THAT WILL GET US TO HEAVEN.
If B then WORKS ARE NECESSARY.


Sounds nice...go back to my A and B replies.
BUT here's what JESUS said.

John 5:27-29
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Jesus is speaking above to those that believed to be saved.
He's stating that THOSE WHO DID GOOD DEEDS will go to a life of resurrection.

Their GOOD DEEDS will lead them to a life of resurrection.


HOW do we practice righteousness?
HOW do we practice being RIGHT WITH GOD?

Is it by NOT doing good works?

And, remember, we're discussing BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS here....NOT the lost who are not REQUIRED to do good works.

How about that. This was in my morning reading today, maybe the only verses you didn't post already!

James 2:14-26
14 (B)What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 (C)If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and (D)one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” (E)Show me your faith without [a]your works, (F)and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works (G)when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see (H)that faith was working together with his works, and by (I)works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, (J)“Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called (K)the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, (L)was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also..../NKJV

There you have it Brothers & Sisters, we do have to perform good works. Who wouldn't want to anyway?! That's fruit for the Kingdom, is it not?

Your faith will push you into good works. If it doesn't then you don't have any faith!

 

[GodsGrace]

How about that. This was in my morning reading today, maybe the only verses you didn't post already!

James 2:14-26
14 (B)What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 (C)If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and (D)one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” (E)Show me your faith without [a]your works, (F)and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works (G)when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see (H)that faith was working together with his works, and by (I)works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, (J)“Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called (K)the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, (L)was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also..../NKJV

There you have it Brothers & Sisters, we do have to perform good works. Who wouldn't want to anyway?! That's fruit for the Kingdom, is it not?

Your faith will push you into good works. If it doesn't then you don't have any faith!

MA,
I've posted your verses many times.
AND there are plenty more!
We can't post every verse every time.
But it's very easy to prove what the NT teaches.
All we have to do is read the verse and not add any ideas to it.

 

[GodsGrace]

So... you have no assurance of salvation?

I'm fully assured of my salvation.
Why do those that believe as you do ask such silly questions?
OSAS is NOT taught in the NT. Or anywhere in the bible.

What a terrible position to be in.

What position am I in?

Just wait and see? What if you were wrong? (toast)

Ha!
What if YOU are??

Paschal's wager.

I'm 100% secure.
Calvinists are not.
Do I need to post Book 3, Chapter 24, Paragraph 8 again?
And,,,,I hate to say this and it may be the first time ever in 10 years of posting...
Neither are YOU.

 

[GodsGrace]

How could a NOSAS supporter ask such a question?

[

Do you understand Christianity AT ALL?????

Let's try the question again: (my post 93)

HOW COULD A BELIEVER BE LOST?

You'd have to know what A BELIEVER is....that would be helpful.

 

[GodsGrace]

I wasn't sent to Reform School for nothing. - LOL
Why do you have to label everyone?

[

Why do I have to label everyone?
Easy.

Catholics have a specific belief system.
Universalists have a specific belief system.
Calvinists have a specific belief system.

Yes. I like to know to whom I'm speaking.
If I know your belief system,,,I understand your posts better.

Why?
Are you ashamed of your label?

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you really claiming that there is no biblical support for eternal security?

YES. This is what I'm claiming.
If you can show scripture in the NT that states that a person cannot lose their salvation...
you should post it.

I'm not planning to trot them all out for you to dismiss.

Why not?
It seems to be an important topic.
Are you not sure?

Do you claim a doctrine is "not supported in scripture" simply because you disagree with it?

I don't respond well to dumb statements.

 

[GodsGrace]

ETERNAL SECURITY

There are two distinct views concerning the eternal security of the believer. The Arminian says that man has received his salvation as an act of his will and he may forfeit his salvation as an act of the will—or through specific sins. The Calvinist says that the true believer will persevere in his faith. This doctrine is sometimes called “perseverance of the saints,” which is not a proper title since it places the emphasis on man’s ability to persevere rather than on God’s ability to keep the believer. A better title might be “perseverance of the Lord.”
This doctrine does not suggest that the believer will never backslide or sin. It means, however, that when a person has genuinely believed in Christ as His Savior from sin he is forever secured by God by His keeping power.
The basis for the security of salvation does not rest with man, but with God. The security of the believer is based on the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.


Securing Work of the Father

Believers are secure because the Father has chosen them to salvation from eternity past (Eph. 1:4). The Father predestined believers to come to the status of sonship in Christ (Eph. 1:5). The Father has the power to keep believers secure in their salvation (Rom. 8:28–30). The ones the Father foreknew, predestined, called, and justified are the same ones He brings to glorification in the future. None are lost in the process. The Father’s love for believers also guarantees their security (Rom. 5:7–10).


Securing Work of the Son

The Son has redeemed the believer (Eph. 1:7), removed the wrath of God from the believer (Rom. 3:25), justified the believer (Rom. 5:1), provided forgiveness (Col. 2:13), and sanctified the believer (1 Cor. 1:2). Moreover, Christ prays for believers to be with Him (John 17:24); He continues to be their Advocate at God’s bar of justice (1 John 2:1); and He continues to make intercession as the believer’s High Priest (Heb. 7:25). If a believer could be lost it would imply Christ is ineffective in His work as the believer’s Mediator.
In addition, Jesus has promised His followers life everlasting: “I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” (John 10:28–29). Note that Jesus promised eternal life. If a believer could lose their salvation, it would not be eternal. Further, Jesus said “they will never perish.” “Never” is a double negative in the Greek text (ou me), which would translate “not never” to reinforce the point. Additionally, the word stands in the emphatic position in the text, emphasizing the follower of Christ will not never perish.
Believers are in Christ’s hand and in the Father’s hand—and no one can snatch them from either hand. For believers to lose their salvation would require some one or a force greater than Christ and stronger than the Father. Clearly, our salvation is secure.


Securing Work of the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit has regenerated the believer, giving him life (Titus 3:5); the Holy Spirit indwells the believer forever (John 14:17); He has sealed the believer for the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30), the sealing being a down payment, guaranteeing our future inheritance; the believer is baptized into union with Christ and into the body of believers (1 Cor. 12:13).
For a believer to lose his salvation would demand a reversal and an undoing of all the preceding works of the Father, Son, and Spirit. The key issue in the discussion of the believer’s security concerns the issue of who does the saving. If man is responsible for securing his salvation, then he can be lost; if God secures the person’s salvation, then the person is forever secure.
The eternal security of the believer by the grace of God is the completion and crowning glory of God’s plan of salvation.


Paul Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology, ed. Jim Vincent and Allan Sholes, Revised and Expanded. (Chicago, IL: Moody Publishers, 2014), 354–356.

Oh. This is sweet.
Matthews seems much better:

Why Eternal Security Is Not a Biblical Doctrine​

By Philip A. Matthews
​

Eternal Security is the doctrine that simply states, "Once saved, always saved (OSAS). This doctrine teaches that once a person has been born again by trusting in Jesus as his personal Savior, i.e., "saved, he can never be eternally lost, i.e., go to hell after his life has ended, no matter how far that person may backslide or live and die in unconfessed sin after his initial belief in Christ. Eternal security claims that one act of faith in Christ at some time in a person's life guarantees heaven for them forevermore.
So, according to this doctrine, there is no way for a saved person to backslide and be lost. There is no way for you to "lose your salvation. There is no way to "fall from grace. There is no such thing as "losing out or "going back on God, with the consequence being that a person who was once saved goes to hell. There is no such thing as "apostasy. Once you are saved, you are "preserved. This is known in Calvinism as the "preservation of the saints. Sometimes it is referred to as "assurance in Christ.

God's Promises Are Conditional​

In commenting on this doctrine, it should first be noted that the promises of God are all conditional. That is, God's promised benefits are given to people as they meet the conditions stated or implied within that promise. In other words, God's promises have strings attached. He does not make blanket promises that apply to everybody in every place for every time. His promises are for specific people who meet specific conditions and qualifications for the specific benefits promised.
Take John 3:16 for example. The promise is that "whosoever believes in Him (Jesus) should not perish but have everlasting life. There is a condition here that must be met before you can receive everlasting life: You must first believe in Jesus. If (which specifies a condition) you believe in Him, then you will not perish and you will have everlasting life. But if you do not believe in Him, then you will not have everlasting life and you will perish.
Let's take another example, Galatians 6:9: "And let us not be weary in well doing; for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. The condition that must be met, before the promise to reap can be fulfilled, is that we must not faint. So if we faint, then it follows that we shall not reap.
But it also follows that if we have reaped, then it must be true that we did not faint. Otherwise, if we reaped and yet we did faint, then it must be true that we will reap whether we faint or not. This makes the conditional statement absolutely useless and the verse nonsensical: we shall reap if do not faint and we shall reap if we do faint. No matter what we do, we shall reap. But if this be the case, then Paul's warning against fainting is meaningless and utter nonsense. Why encourage people not to faint when in actuality it does not matter if they do or they don't.
But what is the point here? The point is that, every conditional statement in the Bible”implied or direct”is what is called a "tautology. That is, it is true both ways”forward and backward. Thus, it is true that "if we do not faint, then we shall reap. And it is also true that if we do faint, then we will not reap. It is also true that if we have reaped, then we must not have fainted, as well as, if we did not reap, then we must have fainted. In logic, these statements condense into this: "We shall reap if and only if we do not faint.

The Bible Is Logically Valid​

Thus, the conditional, "if-then-type statements of the Bible are tautological. If they are not, then many contradictions, untruths, and nonsensical statements result. This principle of logic must be used throughout the New Testament regarding all conditional statements and promises. The "If always means "If and Only If. If it does not, then the conditional statement becomes unconditional, thus stripping the statement of all sense and meaning.

Let's take one more example, one much more directly applicable to the issue at hand, eternal security. Second Peter 1:10-11 (NIV) reads: "Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager ["diligent KJV] to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Exactly what things is Peter telling them to do? Obviously, he means the things he listed in verses 5 through 9: "Add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity [love]. These are the "things they are to add. Then in verse 8 he states that if "these things be in you and abound, you will not be unfruitful. In verse 9, he warns that if you "lack these things, you are blind, cannot see afar off, and have forgotten that you were purged from your sins. Finally in verse 10, he says that "if you do these things, you will never fall¦and receive a rich welcome¦