Do you believe Jesus, or your experience?

[marks]

I already did. Romans 8:9

I don't see anything there about a "nature". It just says flesh, and spirit.

Romans 8:9 KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You keep making "flesh" something other than "flesh". It means what it says I think. Sarx. Flesh. Not something apart from flesh.

Much love!

I'm saying flesh in this context of Paul is nature. You only believe it is body. So I'm asking you how you think we are not in our body when in the Spirit. Doesn't make sense.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

@marks

We are made up of body, soul, and spirit.

What is born again and we are no longer in is our old nature. What makes up our new nature is both our soul and spirit - our mind and emotions/heart. Verse 10 addresses our outer shell, our BODY. It must also die, and when resurrected it also will put on immortality.

 

[marks]

I'm saying flesh in this context of Paul is nature.

Based on what?

The word means flesh, as relates to the physicality of life. "Brothers according to the flesh", means physically related. The passions of the flesh are the desires generated by the body. Some, like basic hunger, are fine, others, like gluttony, are not.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Based on what?

The word means flesh, as relates to the physicality of life. "Brothers according to the flesh", means physically related. The passions of the flesh are the desires generated by the body. Some, like basic hunger, are fine, others, like gluttony, are not.

Much love!

I hope you can see now that flesh means carnality. That is the old nature. Galatians 5:19-21 is carnality. It is of the flesh.

You still haven't answered how in the world you believe Romans 8:9 is talking about our body that we are supposedly not in when in the Spirit. Is being in the Spirit an out-of-body experience. NO!

 

[marks]

So I'm asking you how you think we are not in our body when in the Spirit. Doesn't make sense.

We were the person born from Adam, who, you'll notice, still remains. Now, having been born of the Spirit, we are now likewise spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh, and what is born of Spirit is spirit. We were born of flesh, now we are born of Spirit.

I didn't say we are not in our body. What I said was that we had a life derived from our bodies. The physical body has a brain, a mind. That remains. But we are new, now we are spirit, born of Spirit. Living in that body.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

We were the person born from Adam, who, you'll notice, still remains. Now, having been born of the Spirit, we are now likewise spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh, and what is born of Spirit is spirit. We were born of flesh, now we are born of Spirit.

I didn't say we are not in our body. What I said was that we had a life derived from our bodies. The physical body has a brain, a mind. That remains. But we are new, now we are spirit, born of Spirit. Living in that body.

Much love!

Yes, but sin is not from the body, but from our mind and emotions/spirit and soul which are reborn. The old nature is carnal and called being in the flesh.

 

[marks]

@marks

We are made up of body, soul, and spirit.

What is born again and we are no longer in is our old nature. What makes up our new nature is both our soul and spirit - our mind and emotions/heart. Verse 10 addresses our outer shell, our BODY. It must also die, and when resurrected it also will put on immortality.

Scriptures please.

You keep talking about "natures" as if they aren't connected to anything. The nature of a pebble is small and round and hard. Those things describe it's nature because it IS something, a certain thing, with a certain nature. Our flesh is a thing, with a "nature" if you will though that word isn't used in the Bible in this way. But yes, there is a nature, that which describes our flesh. That thing itself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Is being in the Spirit an out-of-body experience. NO!

Of course that's not what I'm talking about, and you are changing my words. We are in flesh or in Spirit, it doesn't say we are "in body" or not, or something like that.

 

[marks]

Yes, but sin is not from the body,

Based on what?

The Bible says it is. The body of sin, for one.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Have a great weekend!

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Scriptures please.

You keep talking about "natures" as if they aren't connected to anything. The nature of a pebble is small and round and hard. Those things describe it's nature because it IS something, a certain thing, with a certain nature. Our flesh is a thing, with a "nature" if you will though that word isn't used in the Bible in this way. But yes, there is a nature, that which describes our flesh. That thing itself.

Much love!

The nature of a lion is to kill and eat meat. The nature of a sheep is to munch all day on grass. The carnal nature of a human is to sin. The divine nature of Christ is to be righteous. When we are born again we have the same nature as Christ. That is why we have the MIND of Christ. The mind is equal to our spirit. And therefore heart is equal to our soul. The old mind and heart died and were reborn. That leaves body. That is dealt with later because it doesn't produce sin; it just does what the mind and heart tell it to do. It is just an outer shell that gets weaker and older until it dies.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Of course that's not what I'm talking about, and you are changing my words. We are in flesh or in Spirit, it doesn't say we are "in body" or not, or something like that.

But if you say that flesh is only our body, then you really don't know what is reborn and what our nature is.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Based on what?

The Bible says it is. The body of sin, for one.

Much love!

That's the whole kitncaboodle - body, soul and spirit. But sin dwells WITHIN. Mind and heart.

marks, think about this. Jesus said for us to be perfect. How could that be true now if the body had sin in it? Your logic is why there is this false doctrine that we will only be perfect when in heaven, but now we will sin while we are still in these bodies. That is probably where you got your doctrine. But its not true. Jesus wants us to be perfect NOW. He made those who are born again sinless NOW, by giving us a new nature. 2 Peter 1:2-4, and perfect by giving us the fruit of the Spirit, 2 Peter 1:5-11

 

[Brakelite]

Hello @1srCenturyLady,

God has told me in His word that in Christ Jesus I am complete: Accepted in the Beloved; Holy and without blame before Him in love. I believe that, not because it is born out in my experience, but because God has told me it is so in His word (Ephesians 1).

Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. I believe God too, concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, His person and His work, that His all-sufficient sacrifice for my sin has set me free from the law of sin and death, and brought me into the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus: and consequently believe that, like Abraham, it shall be counted unto me for righteousness also. For God has said so in His word (Romans 4:1-5).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Might I suggest that because Abraham believed God, as the word says, and the result was a fulfillment of promise, that the same can be said for any and all of us who believe. You said that the word says Christ takes away our sins. How many of us actually believe that sufficiently that it becomes a reality on day to day living? Many on this forum (and likely other forms as well...I don't know, one is sufficient punishment enough for me), believe we will continue to actively sin until the day we die. I suggest the reason for that is twofold.
One, a lack of faith in a, the power of God to accomplish such a task, or b, the unwillingness of God to do so.
Second, too many have bought into the Catholic concept of original sin, the definition of which is that we have inherited not just a fallen weakened nature as a result of sin, but sin itself. We are born sinners, and therefore we cannot cease to be sinners.
Definition B is that sin is and always has been a choice. And we have the power in Christ to choose not to.

 

[Brakelite]

The point here is what flesh is. It's our physical being. Not some ephemeral "nature", some invisible force. It's our bodies, and they've been damaged by sin, and the brain doesn't think properly, and the body has any number of ungodly appetites.

Much love!

Which nature Jesus had. Otherwise He couldn't have been tempted on all points such as we were.

 

[charity]

Might I suggest that because Abraham believed God, as the word says, and the result was a fulfillment of promise, that the same can be said for any and all of us who believe. You said that the word says Christ takes away our sins. How many of us actually believe that sufficiently that it becomes a reality on day to day living? Many on this forum (and likely other forms as well...I don't know, one is sufficient punishment enough for me), believe we will continue to actively sin until the day we die. I suggest the reason for that is twofold.
One, a lack of faith in a, the power of God to accomplish such a task, or b, the unwillingness of God to do so.
Second, too many have bought into the Catholic concept of original sin, the definition of which is that we have inherited not just a fallen weakened nature as a result of sin, but sin itself. We are born sinners, and therefore we cannot cease to be sinners.
Definition B is that sin is and always has been a choice. And we have the power in Christ to choose not to.

Hello @Backlit,

Except for your reference to Abraham that I referred to, I think maybe you are actually addressing the lady who entered the OP (@1stCenturyLady), for the points you are raising relate to her entries rather than mine.

I spoke as an individual believer, rather than corporately, because the OP contrasts personal experience with faith.

I believe that God tells us to reckon as He Himself reckons: that we are dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto Him, for that is the means whereby victory over the flesh is achieved. I believe that God reckons that we have died with Christ, been buried, quickened and raised with Him, in order to walk in newness of life before the Father. This is a reckoning of faith: in which experience plays no part.

We were born 'in Adam' with all that implies concerning sin and death: but God has placed the believer, 'in Christ' with all that implies regarding life and immortality.

'If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.'(1 John 1:8)

Praise His Holy Name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

'And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption,
to wit, the redemption of our body.
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope:
for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:
for we know not what we should pray for as we ought:
but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit,
because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.'
(Rom 8:23-27)

Hello @1stCenturyLady,

The flesh is what we were born with, it weighs so many pounds and will be with us until we die. The mind of the flesh is part of that. The mind of the spirit is ours 'in Christ', and shares the same space as the mind of the flesh. This results in a conflict of interest between what is of the flesh and what is of the spirit. Paul describes that conflict. It is the experience of every child of God (Romans 8:27).

* So in answer to your subject heading, "I believe God and not my experience."

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Yes she doesn’t not see the forest through the trees. All she can see is sinlessness.

That's because sinlessness is the standard. Have you not read Rom. 10:4 and the plethora of other NT passages in the epistles that teach a Christian is obligated to follow Christ's example, take on the mind of Christ, or allow Christ to relive His earthly life through them? Why do you think those passages say such things if Christians weren't supposed to focus on being sinless? Christianity is not another false religion where people are only required to feel good about themselves. If t hat's the kind of religion what you want, Hinduism does the job pretty well.

That in itself is a lie.... Good grief... the things people ADD and define as truth is mind boggling to me.
So much strife... so much mis-interpretation of scripture... and you get doctrines like sinless perfection.
It is a sad shame.

I'm pretty sure you don't realize how ironic your words are. While you speak about people misinterpreting scripture, you imply a Christian isn't supposed to strive towards moral perfection. The obligation to strive towards moral perfection is taught throughout the OT and NT. Literally nobody added that doctrine or made it up because Gen. 1:26-27 explicitly shows human beings were made to acquire God's character. I could also post a multitude of OT and NT verses where God Himself tells someone to be blameless in His sight, a person asked God to help them be blameless in His sight, or an apostle told a Christian audience that God requires them to be blameless to concretely prove this doctrine is taught throughout the Bible.

Christ Himself stated in Matt 5:48 that moral perfection is a standard His followers are supposed to strive towards. That statement is not going to stop being true because people would rather practice a religion that only requires them to feel good about themselves. Christ said the way to eternal life is difficult and that few would find it for a reason.

 

[Episkopos]

That in itself is a lie.... Good grief... the things people ADD and define as truth is mind boggling to me.
So much strife... so much mis-interpretation of scripture... and you get doctrines like sinless perfection.
It is a sad shame.

The sad shame is the invention of sinful holiness. You don't believe that there is no sin IN Christ. or else you must believe you are outside of Christ when you sin.
The purpose of abiding in Christ is to bear a holy and eternal fruit...without spot or wrinkle of sin. You have fallen for a misinterpretation of the bible that leaves you in the same sinful state as you always were. IOW your gospel has no power. And we are to avoid those who reject the power of God which is by grace. Grace makes you strong IN Christ. But you are still walking in the power of the flesh...outside of grace...where there is a continuation in both the weakness of the flesh in its inability to obey the commandments of God and the futility of the carnal mind that can only think of power in terms of human effort.

So you are turning the truth on its head.
God gives people the power to walk as Jesus walked. Without sin. In Him is no sin.

You should either adopt actual biblical directives in becoming a New Creation or else claim to be agnostic concerning the spiritual walk in Christ.