I believe Jesus' words, they appear to describe my experience, be it to you according to your faith.
Much love!
Do you believe Jesus, or your experience?
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I believe Jesus' words, they appear to describe my experience, be it to you according to your faith.
Much love!
Yes, for each us, 'according to our faith', but if our faith is misplaced? If our faith is in the wrong thing?
I have a question on this.
Where he says,
Romans 7:17 KJV
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
He says, "now then, it is no more I". This says to me that where was a time when it was "I", and now it's past that time, now, it's no more "I", but "sin that dwelleth in me." "No more I" tells me it was, and now it's not.
This is my question. What changed?
Much love!
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I dunt believe anything changed, the now then to me means the same as therefore.
Paul is describing his former bondage to the carnal 'man', the first husband. Nothing could separate him from this relationship except death. This bondage was a firm of slavery. When a slave, except those totally hardened to sin that they actually enjoy it, one desires to be free, he can want to do what he likes, but cannot. He's a slave. He has no choice.
."If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good." The fact that we do not wish to do the sins that we are committing shows that we acknowledge the righteousness of the law which forbids them. But conviction is not conversion, although a very necessary step to that condition. It is not enough to wish to do right. The blessing is pronounced upon those who do his commandments, and not upon those who wish to do them, or who even try to do them. Indeed, if there were no higher position for a professed follower of the Lord than that described in these verses, he would be in a far worse condition than the careless sinner. Both are slaves, only the latter is so hardened that he finds pleasure in his slavery. Now if one must all his life be a slave, it is better for him to be unconscious of his bondage than to be continually fretting over it. But there is something better; therefore it is a blessing that we are convicted of sin, and that our slavery is thereby made as disagreeable as possible.
"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Compare this with verse 5. Remember also that all this is written to them that know the law. It is not addressed to the heathen who have not the law, but to those who profess to know God. He isn't talking about himself as one who was an ignorant pagan completely oblivious to God's commandments... he was a Pharisee who knew the law back to front. While knowing the law, we are united in marriage to sin. This sin is in our flesh, since they who are married are one flesh. It is the law that witnesses to the fact that we are sinners, and that will not grant us any escape from it. But we are slaves. Whosoever commits sin is the slave of sin. John 8:34. Therefore it is that the law that will not let us be anything but what we are, is really holding us in bondage. While we are in that condition, it is not to us a law of liberty.
We are joined in marriage to sin. But sin has in it death; for "the sting of death is sin." Sin is that with which death kills us. Therefore the body of sin, to which we are joined when in the flesh, is but a body of death. What a terrible condition! Joined in such close union that we are one flesh with that which is in itself death. A living death! And "the strength of sin is the law." It witnesses to our union, and thus holds us in that bondage of death. If there were no hope of escape, we might curse the law for not allowing us to die in ignorance. But although the law seems to be pitiless, it is nevertheless our best friend. It holds us to a sense of the dreadfulness of our bondage until in anguish we cry out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" We must be delivered, or we perish.
The pagan proverb has it that God helps those who help themselves. The truth is that God helps those who can not help themselves: "I was brought low, and he helped me." No one ever cries in vain for help. When the cry goes up for help, the Deliverer is at hand; and so, although sin is working death in us by all the power of the law, we may exclaim, "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 15:57. "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." Romans 11:26. "Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." Acts 3:26. "Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift."
"So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." That is, of course, while in the condition described in the preceding verses. In purpose he serves the law of God, but in actual practice he serves the law of sin. As described in another place, "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye can not do the things that ye would." Galatians 5:17. It is not a state of actual service to God, because we read in chapter 8 that "they that are in the flesh can not please God." It is a state from which one may well pray to be delivered, so that he can serve the Lord not merely with the mind, but with his whole being. "The very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." 1 Thessalonians 5:23, 24
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
But what about ourselves?
"But I am carnal."
And therefore in what condition?
"Sold under sin."
What do we call one who is bought and sold?
A slave.
What is the evidence that the one who is carnal is a slave?
"That which I do, I allow not; for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."
What is shown by the fact that he does the evil that he hates?
"I consent unto the law that it is good."
Therefore who is it in reality that does the evil works?
"It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."
To what law is such an one subject?
"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."
In what does he delight?
"I delight in the law of God."
How does he delight in the law of God?
"After the inward man."
Then why does he not obey it?
"I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
In what condition is such an one?
"O wretched man that I am!"
Why is he wretched?
Because he's still a slave. He's still in captivity.
What is his distressed cry?
"Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Is there any hope of deliverance?
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
It will be noticed that in this entire chapter sin is represented as a person. It is the first husband to which we are united. But the union has become distasteful, because, having seen Christ and having been drawn to him by his love, we have seen that we were joined to a monster. The marriage bond has become a painful and distressing relationship, a pain in the proverbial butt, and our whole thought is how to get away from the monster to which we are united and which is dragging us down to a certain death. The picture presented in this chapter is one of the most vivid in the whole Bible.
"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law." 1 Corinthians 15:56. "Without the law sin was dead." "Sin is not imputed when there is no law." "Where no law is, there is no transgression." So it is that "sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence." Sin is simply the law transgressed, "for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4. Sin has no strength, therefore, except that which it gets from the law. The law is not sin, and yet it binds us to sin, that is, the law witnesses to the sin and will not grant us any escape, simply because it can not bear false witness.
The Law of Life, and the Law of Death. "The commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." The law of God is the life of God. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48. His life is the rule for all his creatures. Those in whom the life of God is made perfectly manifest, keep his law. It is very evident therefore that the design of the law is life, since it is life itself. But the opposite of life is death. Therefore when the law is transgressed, it is death to the transgressor.
So who is the real enemy. Sin, or the law? "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." It is not the law that is the enemy, but the enemy is sin. Sin does the killing, for "the sting of death is sin." Sin has the poison of death in it. Sin deceived us so that for a time we thought that it was our friend, and we embraced it and delighted in the union. But when the law enlightened us, we found that sin's embrace was the embrace of death.
The law pointed out the fact that sin was killing us. "Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." We have no more reason to grumble about at the law and claim it is married to the cross, or is abrogated at Calvary etc as so many believe, than we have to hate the man who tells us that the substance which we are eating, thinking it to be food, is poison. He is our friend. He would not be our friend if he did not show us our danger. The fact that he is not able to heal the illness that the poison already eaten has caused does not make him any the less our friend. He has warned us of our danger, and we can now get help from the physician. And so, after all, the law itself was not death to us, but its office was "that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."
"For we know that the law is spiritual." If this fact were more generally recognized, there would be much less religious legislation among so-called Christian nations. And less attempts to 'christianize' the nation through taking over political parties. People would not try to enforce the commandments of God. Since the law is spiritual, it can be obeyed only by the power of the Spirit of God. "God is Spirit" (John 4:24); therefore the law is the nature of God. Spiritual is opposed to carnal, or fleshly. Thus it is that the man who is in the flesh can not please God.
"But I am carnal, sold under sin." One who is sold is a slave; and the evidence of the slavery in this instance is very plain. Free men do that which they wish to do. Only slaves do that which they do not wish to do, and are continually prevented from doing what they wish to do. "For that which I do, I allow not; for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." A more disagreeable position can not be imagined. Life in such a state can be only a burden.
"But I am carnal."
And therefore in what condition?
"Sold under sin."
What do we call one who is bought and sold?
A slave.
What is the evidence that the one who is carnal is a slave?
"That which I do, I allow not; for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."
What is shown by the fact that he does the evil that he hates?
"I consent unto the law that it is good."
Therefore who is it in reality that does the evil works?
"It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."
To what law is such an one subject?
"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."
In what does he delight?
"I delight in the law of God."
How does he delight in the law of God?
"After the inward man."
Then why does he not obey it?
"I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
In what condition is such an one?
"O wretched man that I am!"
Why is he wretched?
Because he's still a slave. He's still in captivity.
What is his distressed cry?
"Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Is there any hope of deliverance?
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
It will be noticed that in this entire chapter sin is represented as a person. It is the first husband to which we are united. But the union has become distasteful, because, having seen Christ and having been drawn to him by his love, we have seen that we were joined to a monster. The marriage bond has become a painful and distressing relationship, a pain in the proverbial butt, and our whole thought is how to get away from the monster to which we are united and which is dragging us down to a certain death. The picture presented in this chapter is one of the most vivid in the whole Bible.
"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law." 1 Corinthians 15:56. "Without the law sin was dead." "Sin is not imputed when there is no law." "Where no law is, there is no transgression." So it is that "sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence." Sin is simply the law transgressed, "for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4. Sin has no strength, therefore, except that which it gets from the law. The law is not sin, and yet it binds us to sin, that is, the law witnesses to the sin and will not grant us any escape, simply because it can not bear false witness.
The Law of Life, and the Law of Death. "The commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." The law of God is the life of God. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48. His life is the rule for all his creatures. Those in whom the life of God is made perfectly manifest, keep his law. It is very evident therefore that the design of the law is life, since it is life itself. But the opposite of life is death. Therefore when the law is transgressed, it is death to the transgressor.
So who is the real enemy. Sin, or the law? "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." It is not the law that is the enemy, but the enemy is sin. Sin does the killing, for "the sting of death is sin." Sin has the poison of death in it. Sin deceived us so that for a time we thought that it was our friend, and we embraced it and delighted in the union. But when the law enlightened us, we found that sin's embrace was the embrace of death.
The law pointed out the fact that sin was killing us. "Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." We have no more reason to grumble about at the law and claim it is married to the cross, or is abrogated at Calvary etc as so many believe, than we have to hate the man who tells us that the substance which we are eating, thinking it to be food, is poison. He is our friend. He would not be our friend if he did not show us our danger. The fact that he is not able to heal the illness that the poison already eaten has caused does not make him any the less our friend. He has warned us of our danger, and we can now get help from the physician. And so, after all, the law itself was not death to us, but its office was "that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."
"For we know that the law is spiritual." If this fact were more generally recognized, there would be much less religious legislation among so-called Christian nations. And less attempts to 'christianize' the nation through taking over political parties. People would not try to enforce the commandments of God. Since the law is spiritual, it can be obeyed only by the power of the Spirit of God. "God is Spirit" (John 4:24); therefore the law is the nature of God. Spiritual is opposed to carnal, or fleshly. Thus it is that the man who is in the flesh can not please God.
"But I am carnal, sold under sin." One who is sold is a slave; and the evidence of the slavery in this instance is very plain. Free men do that which they wish to do. Only slaves do that which they do not wish to do, and are continually prevented from doing what they wish to do. "For that which I do, I allow not; for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." A more disagreeable position can not be imagined. Life in such a state can be only a burden.
As an understanding of our internal conflict - why we still have issues - I find it liberating, and empowering.
Much love!
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Is what happened, then, that the "I", in identifying with Christ, died with Christ (to borrow Paul's earlier metaphor from Galatians 2:20-21)? No, I guess in this metaphor, Torah killed him. No, I’ve got my metaphors backwards; “I” is married to Torah, and Sin killed him (her?). No, that doesn’t answer how dying makes “I” no longer responsible for the evil done by the power of Sin within him. Maybe “no longer” is just for the purpose of introducing the concept of Sin as a quasi-personal power.
(I'm having trouble navigating Paul's metaphors. We have a ghost haunting a golem's house. Or, if the "I" is his mind separate from his flesh (a concept I also could take issue with, given the biochemical links between the body/brain and mind), then the verse makes Paul seem like the guy who blames the dog for his own farts. Sigh. I guess it serves his purposes.)
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