Do you believe Jesus, or your experience?

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marks

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I rest in HIS promises to keep me saved... I finally understand He LOVES me personally.... I have no desire to start STRIVING and trying to be perfect and without sin.... MY focus is on HIM.
I think that striving takes us away from communion which Christ, which is actually what keeps us from sin. We just have to understand we're in process of being transfromed as our minds are being renewed.

I think about those two trees, the Tree of Life, we know that is Christ. And the other tree, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Which tree? I think we still choose.

Much love!
 
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Addy

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I think that striving takes us away from communion which Christ, which is actually what keeps us from sin. We just have to understand we're in process of being transfromed as our minds are being renewed.
ABSOLUTELY...
 

marks

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I agree with all of that. But that is not all you believe. You also believe your carnal nature has not been taken away. It is just those sins committed by it are forgiven.
My understanding is that our flesh refers to our body, not something that exists apart from it. There is a nature to a thing because there is that thing. "Flesh Nature" is not a Biblical term in fact. This never appears in the Bible. It simply speak of our flesh, sarx.

You had mentioned Strong's before, actually, I prefer to learn the meanings of Biblical words from the Bible itself. What I like to do is to look at every instance a particular word is used, and in each of it's forms. I'll often look at related words to get a better sense. For sure I start with lexicons, and my Greek class, but let's be honest, that was a long time ago.

I'll look at every instance a word is used, and look at the context, to see exactly how it's being used, and in relation to what. I'll generally find that I can sort the occurances, and sarx is an oft used word, so there are many, I can sort them into, "These show specific meaning by their context", and, "These do not show specific meaning by their context. An example would be,

Luke 24:39 KJV
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This is plainly referring to Jesus' body.

John 8:15 KJV
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

This one, there isn't the same context to clarify, even if we expand our view,

John 8:14-16 KJV
14) Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15) Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16) And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Jesus is speaking about coming from and going to heaven, that His judgment is true coming from His connection to His father. But there is no statement on what basis the Pharisees judge other than this to which we can compare it. For instance, were Jesus to have said, "you judge according to your own evil spirit", this would give us a context to say, "flesh" is used here in the same sense as "your own evil spirit". But there is no statement like that. We could go the other way, had He said, you judge as children of Adam, but there are not explanatory statements.

So I'd call the first to be unambiguous, and the second to be ambiguous, in that we need additional information to clarify exactly what it means, that is, unless it means just what the basic word itself means, "flesh", our physical being.

When I look at every occurance of "flesh" in this way, and divide between ambigous and unambiguous, I find that every passage that gives me a definitive context is the same, always about my physical being. "Flesh and bone", "my brothers according to the flesh," "flesh and blood", "eat the flesh of the Son of Man", "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"

Some are particularly meaningful in this exploration. "The Word became flesh". Jesus did not become a sinful nature. "I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh".

So then I use this meaning to go back and understand those other passages,

John 3:6 KJV
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 6:6-19 KJV
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Your members, Body of sin, Your mortal body, this is our body parts and our bodies.

The infirmity of your flesh, is this the "weakness of the sinful nature", or,

Psalms 103:13-14 KJV
13) Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
14) For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

Acts 2:26 KJV
26) Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Acts 2:31 KJV
31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Romans 7:5 KJV
5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 7:18 KJV
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 8:3 KJV
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Can this really be saying God sent Jesus in the likeness of a "sin nature"?

I just don't see that.

Anyway, I wanted to give a more complete reply concerning Strong's definitions.

Much love!
 
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1stCenturyLady

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I absolutely hear what you are saying.
But consider that Paul was 14 years before he consulted with the men in Jerusalem.
And consider how God made everything to show His glory, even babies, and then consider how long it takes newborns to start crawling and walking and eating solid food and running without falling. And consider how some babies learn to walk faster than other babies.

I received Gods Spirit and it was many, many years before I would have been able to read your post and understand it. Your post would not have grown my trust years ago. And it is all done from start to finish through our trust.

It was also many years before I saw great change. It took that long for God to keep going over trust with me and for me to grow strong in it.

As to your third paragraph, if, as you say, they have not yet received Gods Spirit, how would they examine themselves?

The Ten Commandments was to show us our sin. So that is how we were to examine ourselves in the Old Testament, BEFORE the Spirit was even given. Now we have the New Testament to examine ourselves by, and it is even a higher standard. But don't forget, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the WORD OF GOD. I knew I was not measuring up, but I was hopelessly in love with my sin. What the Bible also taught me was that God is stronger than I am, so all I asked was that He intervene and take the object of my sin away from me, and keep it away, even when I tried to get it back, and that I would try - I couldn't help myself. It was totally honest that I was helpless to be righteous even in my desires to be righteous. All I wanted to do was sin. sbg, that was 30 years after first coming to church and attending three different denominations. So I knew the Word. But I wasn't inhabited by God, just merely being drawn in knowledge through the Spirit, but from the outside.

New babes in Christ need to know what the new standard is, and that God is Holy, and without holiness, no man shall see God. Heb. 12:14. They also have to realize that they can't be righteous on their own, and need Jesus to give them His own sinless nature that overides the old carnal nature of sin. That is the truth. Not the false doctrine that the blood of Jesus is like an invisibility cloak that merely covers our sin, and we will always sin, but now without condemnation. That is the doctrine of demons that I fight against, and newbies need the truth, not the "have your cake and eat is too doctrine that is commonly taught in every denomination now, even the ones who would have shunned that as false just a100 years ago. God expects Holiness in us, and He gives it to us literally, not just an imputed righteousness over a cesspool.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Romans 8:3 KJV
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Can this really be saying God sent Jesus in the likeness of a "sin nature"?

The likeness was changed before He was even born. For instance, I look the same as I did at 30. People would still recognize me though I had not seen them since high school. But my inside nature was changed when I was born again and received the seed of the Father. 1 John 3:9. Jesus was CONCEIVED with the same seed of the Father and came out of the womb, sinless. But he looked like every other human being, and could still bleed and die.
 

marks

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The likeness was changed before He was even born. For instance, I look the same as I did at 30. People would still recognize me though I had not seen them since high school. But my inside nature was changed when I was born again and received the seed of the Father. 1 John 3:9. Jesus was CONCEIVED with the same seed of the Father and came out of the womb, sinless. But he looked like every other human being, and could still bleed and die.
The point here is what flesh is. It's our physical being. Not some ephemeral "nature", some invisible force. It's our bodies, and they've been damaged by sin, and the brain doesn't think properly, and the body has any number of ungodly appetites.

Much love!
 

1stCenturyLady

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The point here is what flesh is. It's our physical being. Not some ephemeral "nature", some invisible force. It's our bodies, and they've been damaged by sin, and the brain doesn't think properly, and the body has any number of ungodly appetites.

Much love!

It is how Paul uses it, and he uses it two different ways, so the CONTEXT (which I've argued for before with you) must be taken into consideration.
 

marks

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It is how Paul uses it, and he uses it two different ways, so the CONTEXT (which I've argued for before with you) must be taken into consideration.
That's my point.

Context tells us the range of meaning, and interpretting the "flesh" as something like "a spiritual force for evil" isn't there.

Paul does not use "flesh" contrary to the rest of the Bible. And there are all the other passages that mention the body of sin, sin in the body, stuff like, also from Paul.

If we're to be consistent, that's it. Otherwise, I don't see how it's anything different than pulling a rabbit from a hat. No offense intended, only, I do not see ANY support for that idea in the Bible, and much that plainly says otherwise.

Much love!
 

1stCenturyLady

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That's my point.

Context tells us the range of meaning, and interpretting the "flesh" as something like "a spiritual force for evil" isn't there.

Paul does not use "flesh" contrary to the rest of the Bible. And there are all the other passages that mention the body of sin, sin in the body, stuff like, also from Paul.

If we're to be consistent, that's it. Otherwise, I don't see how it's anything different than pulling a rabbit from a hat. No offense intended, only, I do not see ANY support for that idea in the Bible, and much that plainly says otherwise.

Much love!

Look at body, soul, and spirit

What is nature?
What is flesh?
Romans 8:9 says we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. So where is our body if we aren't in it?
 

marks

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Look at body, soul, and spirit

What is nature?
What is flesh?
Romans 8:9 says we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. So where is our body if we aren't in it?
Where is your life? We used to derive our life, our being, from our bodies born from Adam. Now we derive our life, our being, from our spirit being born of God.

The body has it's nature, and the spirit has it's nature. Still we live in our bodies, hence, the conflict.

Much love!
 

1stCenturyLady

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Well, I can't wait any longer for you to answer my question against your premise that flesh always means body. I'v
Where is your life? We used to derive our life, our being, from our bodies born from Adam. Now we derive our life, our being, from our spirit being born of God.

The body has it's nature, and the spirit has it's nature. Still we live in our bodies, hence, the conflict.

Much love!

In order for something to be reborn, it first has to die. So what dies for our nature to be reborn? You say body. Wrong. That comes later, and verse 10 is so that we would not confused the two, but you did anyway.
 

marks

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In order for something to be reborn, it first has to die. So what dies for our nature to be reborn?

Romans 6:6 KJV
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Who is "our old man"? The one born from Adam? Or an ephemeral "nature", some outside force that exerts itself upon our minds? Or some such?

That the body of sin be destroyed, literally down-nullified, made powerless, of no effect.

What is the "body of sin"?

Much love!
 

1stCenturyLady

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Romans 6:6 KJV
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Who is "our old man"? The one born from Adam? Or an ephemeral "nature", some outside force that exerts itself upon our minds? Or some such?

That the body of sin be destroyed, literally down-nullified, made powerless, of no effect.

What is the "body of sin"?

Much love!

You answer my question. I'll put it another way.

If you are not in the FLESH but in the Spirit, and you say the flesh is the BODY, and we aren't in it, what happened to our body? And when are we in the Spirit? Now, or in heaven?
 

marks

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You answer my question. I'll put it another way.

If you are not in the FLESH but in the Spirit, and you say the flesh is the BODY, and we aren't in it, what happened to our body? And when are we in the Spirit? Now, or in heaven?
I thought we just covered that earlier today.

We were in flesh, which is to say we derived our life out of Adam's creation. Now we are in Spirit, we derive our life from Christ. Our life in Christ is our spiritual life, and our bodies will be redeemed in our resurrection. Meanwhile, we still live in the Adamic body, which is corrupted by sin.

Much love!
 

1stCenturyLady

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I thought we just covered that earlier today.

We were in flesh, which is to say we derived our life out of Adam's creation. Now we are in Spirit, we derive our life from Christ. Our life in Christ is our spiritual life, and our bodies will be redeemed in our resurrection. Meanwhile, we still live in the Adamic body, which is corrupted by sin.

Much love!

You never mentioned nature. Do you know what part of us is our nature reborn?

When we are not in the flesh, that means we are no longer in our old nature, but in the Spirit that killed the old nature, nailing it to the cross. Therefore, flesh is nature, not body. Romans 8:9 makes no sense at all if flesh means body. That is what I'm trying to show you. Context.
 

marks

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When we are not in the flesh, that means we are no longer in our old nature,
You keep making "flesh" something other than "flesh". It means what it says I think. Sarx. Flesh. Not something apart from flesh.

Much love!