Do you believe Jesus, or your experience?
- Thread starter 1stCenturyLady
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Perfection is a long way from sinlessness. But you twist my words, and really can't understand what Jesus said about Him taking away our sin, and in Him (abiding) there is no sin.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Curiously, @marks and @1stCenturyLady , the Bible actually agrees with both of you. 1CL says perfection in that passage means moral perfection and obedience to God's commandments (free from sin), and Marks says it's all about love. You are both correct.
We know that if we go directly to the law striving to obey God's Commandments, this achieves nothing, because
KJV Romans 3:20
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But through the powerful work of the holy Spirit in our minds, we are transformed, and conformed into the image of Christ, which dare I suggest you both concur with, and this miracle is accomplished through faith yes?
KJV Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
So when Christ abides within, and we have the mind of Christ, we are deeply and immovably connected to the Vine, feeding from the divine nature, the inevitable result is we take on the very nature of Christ. And we are told
KJV 1 John 4:7-8, 11-12
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Oh, look at that!! There's 1CL's perfection, joined in harmony with Mark's love! Fancy that. And the result???
KJV Romans 13:10
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
We know that if we go directly to the law striving to obey God's Commandments, this achieves nothing, because
KJV Romans 3:20
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But through the powerful work of the holy Spirit in our minds, we are transformed, and conformed into the image of Christ, which dare I suggest you both concur with, and this miracle is accomplished through faith yes?
KJV Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
So when Christ abides within, and we have the mind of Christ, we are deeply and immovably connected to the Vine, feeding from the divine nature, the inevitable result is we take on the very nature of Christ. And we are told
KJV 1 John 4:7-8, 11-12
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Oh, look at that!! There's 1CL's perfection, joined in harmony with Mark's love! Fancy that. And the result???
KJV Romans 13:10
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
That is a lie and lying is a sin. I hate false doctrine.
I love the sinner and hate the sin.
comprehende amiga
I don't find that to be correct myself. The word itself is about a completeness, maturity, fullness, consumation. But it requires it's context to say what it is the fulness or maturity or consumate what? And in this case, the context is very plainly, at least to me, that we to have this mature and consumate love not just for those who love us, but also those who don't.
The word may be used in other contexts which may speak of commands or other things, but those contexts won't change the context in this place.
As I see it.
Much love!
Consumate love. This is not a passage of "sinlessness".
I'm sorry, I just hold very tightly to the text, no matter what people say about me for doing so.
Much love!
Just for the record, I know that Jesus takes away our sin, and in Him there is no sin, thus SINLESSNESS. Those are sins of lawlessness against the Ten Commandments. Sins of lawlessness are sins unto death. This happens when Jesus gives us His Spirit of Christ to dwell within us right from the start when He makes us born again of the Spirit. Actually, my "start" happened 30 years after starting to go to church with my mother. I lacked the Spirit of Christ to empower me to be sinless. But like many in the church today in the same situation, during that time I was being drawn by the Holy Spirit and learning the Bible. But not until 1977 did I actually have what can only be called a supernatural religious experience of seeing a vision, hearing God's voice speak directly to me, and feel the carnal nature die within me and be lifted out of me, and replaced by a divine nature. And from that day on, no longer was I a slave to sin. And as Philippians 3:16 says, I lived up to the light I had. But more light came after that and another milestone was reached. And a new level of obedience to God began 20 years ago in 2001. And another milestone happened a few years ago - full revelation of His word started, and each month or so I get so excited when a long-standing question is answered. Hearing God's voice is the greatest joy of my life, and I would never want to quench that voice with sin. So I obey Him totally.
But perfection takes care of the sins NOT unto death. They are trespasses that have to do with the fruit of the Spirit we exhibit to one another. So I believe in love also. The steps to perfection that have to do with maturing each fruit of the Spirit are found in 2 Peter 1:5-7. You will see that the last one is love. It can take a lifetime to get to maturity in all fruit. And God leaves it up to us whether we will do what is necessary for these trespasses to be cleansed making us sinless in sins not unto death also. And that is FORGIVENESS. Matthew 6:14-15.
Many have no problem obeying the commandment against murder or stealing and believe they are fine. But deep down they may have a root of bitterness caused by unforgiveness against a brother or sister in Christ. Believe God when He says "15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Cultivate the fear of the Lord, and you shall gain great knowledge from the Spirit of Truth.
Last edited:
That in itself is a lie.... Good grief... the things people ADD and define as truth is mind boggling to me.
So much strife... so much mis-interpretation of scripture... and you get doctrines like sinless perfection.
It is a sad shame.
Well, so you say!
It's just labeling and dismissing, so you don't even need to do that, just don't respond, that would be better form.
Much love!
Addy, show me where Jesus says He does NOT take away our sin. What doctrine do you believe that contradicts what I believe that you believe is your truth?
If you don't want to hear what I have to say, then just put me on ignore. Because I care too much to leave you in your false doctrines without, at least, countering with the Truth. It is up to you if you believe me or not.
Hello @1srCenturyLady,
God has told me in His word that in Christ Jesus I am complete: Accepted in the Beloved; Holy and without blame before Him in love. I believe that, not because it is born out in my experience, but because God has told me it is so in His word (Ephesians 1).
Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. I believe God too, concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, His person and His work, that His all-sufficient sacrifice for my sin has set me free from the law of sin and death, and brought me into the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus: and consequently believe that, like Abraham, it shall be counted unto me for righteousness also. For God has said so in His word (Romans 4:1-5).
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Last edited:
Jesus does take our Sins.... He died for all of them... but that is HIM.... we are stuck here on this miserable planet until which time we die.
Until our death =Glorification.... we remain with sin.... that is how I see it.
In real life... I do not think of sin.... I do not want to sin... as I know it hurts God.... Instead... I focus on CHRIST... I PRAISE and WORSHIP Christ...I am in AWE of GOD's MAJESTY.... I am BLESSED beyond measure... and I am GRATEFUL.
I rest in HIS promises to keep me saved... I finally understand He LOVES me personally.... I have no desire to start STRIVING and trying to be perfect and without sin.... MY focus is on HIM.
Behold! The Lamb of God, Who carries away the sin of the world.
Inclusive statement = all sin.
All have sinned, and fallen short of God's glory. Everything less than God's glory, ever last prideful or spiteful thought, every murder and rape, carried away by Jesus.
So what is there to condemn the child of God, who is no longer in the Adam's dead humanity, but is alive in Christ? All sin removed? All the sin of all the world removed? What will condemn us, over whom there is no Law? Our Judge, the Judge of all humanity, has died for us, to remove us from that humanity which is condemned. And now ever lives to make intercession for us.
Much love!
@charity, @Addy
I know God's word is true, because it works.
I have experienced the removal of the carnal nature
I have experienced receiving a divine nature
I have experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit
I have experienced sinlessness of willful sins of lawlessness
I have experienced having all my prayers answered, and receiving what I prayed for.
The list goes on...
I know God's word is true, because it works.
I have experienced the removal of the carnal nature
I have experienced receiving a divine nature
I have experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit
I have experienced sinlessness of willful sins of lawlessness
I have experienced having all my prayers answered, and receiving what I prayed for.
The list goes on...
I agree with all of that. But that is not all you believe. You also believe your carnal nature has not been taken away. It is just those sins committed by it are forgiven.
I read this and I read PRIDE... Anyways... I do not care what you believe... I am responsible for what I believe... Have a nice day.
I'm happy, but I have nothing to be prideful about. That twisted thought is on you. I believe what God says, and I've experienced it. Jesus did it all, not me.
I absolutely hear what you are saying.
But consider that Paul was 14 years before he consulted with the men in Jerusalem.
And consider how God made everything to show His glory, even babies, and then consider how long it takes newborns to start crawling and walking and eating solid food and running without falling. And consider how some babies learn to walk faster than other babies.
I received Gods Spirit and it was many, many years before I would have been able to read your post and understand it. Your post would not have grown my trust years ago. And it is all done from start to finish through our trust.
It was also many years before I saw great change. It took that long for God to keep going over trust with me and for me to grow strong in it.
As to your third paragraph, if, as you say, they have not yet received Gods Spirit, how would they examine themselves?
I'm just saying there is no need for empty statements, "You believe twisted Scriptures", stuff like that. It's ad hominem, which is to say it's towards the person and not the topic, so it does nothing to advance the discussion. If exresses your negative opinion of me, or what you think I'm doing. OK, maybe your right and maybe you aren't but how does it look to those who think you aren't correct? Those who agree will often gloss over things like that, but that's what I mean about poor form. Some people recognize that kind of statement, and I think they are just better left unsaid myself.
If you think I'm misinterpretting a passage, let's address that, not just, You believe twisted Scriptures. Make it pertinent, specific. Useful.
The topic is, if I remember, do you believe Jesus, as in, that you will be without certain sins, but not others, when you are reborn? OR do you believe your experience, which apparently tells us we will always sin, until we die?
Am I on track here?
I believe this:
Romans 6:3-12 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed (lit. justified) from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
We are crucified together with Christ. The dead we died was in our Adamic life. We come alive with Christ's life. We are now to reckon ourselves dead to sin but alive to God, because in our minds it may not seem like it. Because we still have a mortal body in which it is still possible for sin to reign.
That mortal body,
Romans 12:1-2 KJV
1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
We are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, with the intent of proving what is God's will, another word exressing intent.
We are to present these mortal bodies a sacrifice to God, holy - set apart for His use. Why? Why are we urged to do this? Because it may or may not be happening.
We are urged to present our bodies, and we are urged to not be conformed to this age, but to instead be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
Ephesians 4:22-24 KJV
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
The old man is the man born from Adam. We are to "put off" the old man, be renewed in the spirit of our minds, and put on the new man.
Putting on,
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
2 Corinthians 5:1-4 KJV
1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
We have been recreated a new celestial being. We now have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. We now have. One day, that celestial body, who we are in the heavenlies, will cloth upon our raptured or resurrected body, and it's nature and properties will overwhelm and transform the body born from Adam.
Putting on the new man is to live that new life, and we are told both,
Ephesians 4:22-25 KJV
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
and,
Colossians 3:8-12 KJV
8) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
We are admonished to put off the old and put on the new, and we're told we already have put off the old, and put on the new, but the admonition in both cases is the same, stop doing wrong, and start doing right.
There is a a renewing of the mind that happens in God's children, as we learn to stop living/thinking like the old Adamic man, because we no longer are that man. And this renewing of the mind is our becoming Christlike, being renewed after the knowledge of Him.
We learn of Jesus, learn of me, He said, we learn of Him, and,
1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
When we see Him as He is, we become like Him. Learn of me . . .
When he shall appear, we shall be like him. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, even as Jesus is pure.
This hope, why do we hope for what we have? But if we do not have it, we patiently wait for it.
We are either walking in the Spirit, or walking according to the flesh. We are either living our Spirit life, no longer I, but Christ lives in me, that life, or we are living as if we were still that man born from Adam.
To try to discuss in whether this Adamic life is "sin unto death" or "sin not unto death", to me, misses the point. Either we are walking after the flesh, are after the Spirit. In the Spirit. Either we are living our new life where our focus is trusting Jesus, and loving others, or we are living our Adamic life, where our focus is the knowledge of good and evil.
Have we set ourselves to trust Jesus, and love others, or have we set ourselves to do good, and not do evil? I don't think they are compatible. One the focus is outward, the other, the focus is inward.
This is what I've learned from the Bible.
From my experience, the truth is, it's when I remember that God does not, will not condemn me, that's when I overcome temptations. I feel like when I keep in mind that Jesus died for me, I live in Him, He ever lives to make intercession for me, I feel like my heart just opens wide to God in any situation. I find nothing more meaningful towards consistently living in love and joy and peace and self-control and all the rest than to remember "it is finished". I am reconciled to God.
Much love!
Similar threads
