Another Premillennial absurdity

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WPM

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Thank You Brother,
i am currently sanctioned to deliver my son to self-defense class now, so will be out for a couple hours ...

If satan is currently locked up now, how is he currently(now/today) able to decieve the nations?

Understand. No rush!

Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

Scripture often makes broad general sweeping statements. When Scripture tells us that the Gentiles would no longer be deceived it does not mean every single one of them, or even most of them, would be saved, just that the ignorance would be finally lifted from the darkened Gentiles.

This relates to the Gospel light going out to the Gentiles (ethnos). Before the cross they were in darkness; now they are enlightened. The answer to darkness every time is light.

Just like blindness and darkness are attributed to the Gentiles (without qualification) prior to the cross, it didn’t mean that every single Gentile was blind and in darkness. Scripture often described the Gentiles as a collective whole. That did not mean the Gentiles were all the same. Scripture, like us, makes generalities. Prior to Christ’s earthly ministry the heathen nations were viewed as being in wholesale ignorant and therefore outside of God’s plan of salvation. Could I suggest this was simply a general observation about the overall condition of the Gentiles as a broad mass, not an attempt to represent every single Gentile?

If we were to take many of the sweeping general statements re the blindness and darkness of the Gentiles in the OT hyper-literally it would negate the salvation of Abel, Noah, Abraham, Ruth (Ruth 1:16), the widow women of Zarephath that entertained Elijah (1 Kings 17:24), Rahab the harlot and “all her kindred” (Joshua 6:23-25), Naaman (2 Kings 5:15), the Queen of Sheba (Matthew 12:42), and the inhabitants of the Gentile city of Ninevah (Jonah 3:5). Were these not Gentiles? Where these not “God's people”? The fact is this general assertion did not apply to every single Gentile. Likewise, when Scripture speak about the enlightenment of the Gentiles and the removal of the deception it doesn’t mean that every Gentile will be saved, but that the Gospel message and opportunity would be extended to them as a whole – just like Israel experienced in the Old Testament.

Let me illustrate.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records, “Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust. Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.”

Christ’s rejection by his own house (Israel) saw Him turn to the Gentiles and the formerly outcast. He was now going to invade the devil’s house and acquire a spoil. Immediately after the Jews turned on Him in this story He delivers one of Satan’s household – a demon possessed man – thus illustrating that there was a darkened people out there that would come to faith in Christ. He used this man who belonged to the devil’s own house (kingdom) to impress the direction of the Gospel from hereon. Now, my main point is this: this reading expressly declares “in his name shall the Gentiles trust.” Using the Premil argument: all the Gentiles must trust, or this cannot apply today. What I am saying is, if you were to apply this argument namely that the fact that the vast bulk of Gentiles still remain deceived is evidence why we can’t be in the millennium now then we must (if we are consistent) apply the same rule to this statement to show that it can’t be relevant to today. It cannot relate to the here-and-now because the majority of Gentiles still don’t trust God. Of course that would be preposterous. Such a statement is a general reference to the removal of the veil deceiving the Gentiles as a whole after the cross.

Paul draws several of the Old Testament prophecies, relating to the removing of this global deception upon the ethnos, together in Romans 15:8-12 and shows how this began with the life, death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent evangelism of the early Church. He declares, Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the [Gr. ethnos] Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written (in 1 Samuel 22:50), For this cause I will confess to thee among the [Gr. ethnos]Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith (in Psalm 18:49), Rejoice, ye [Gr. ethnos] Gentiles, with his people. And again (in Deuteronomy 32:43), Praise the Lord, all ye [Gr. ethnos] Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again (in Isaiah 11:10), Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the [Gr. ethnos] Gentiles; in him shall the [Gr. ethnos] Gentiles trust.”

The Old Testament writers predicted that there was a time coming when the Gentiles would accept Christ, glorify His name and trust Him. Now, here is an important question. Did all the Gentiles surrender to Him? Using the Premil argument on Rev 20:2 they must. After all, this reading makes a blanket statement they would believe, without qualification. Indeed, did that mean that the majority of Gentiles would do so? Of course not. Did that mean that the majority of Gentile nations would turn to God? Of course not. Did that mean that the majority of Gentiles would turn from heathenism? Of course not. This was talking about the general enlightenment of the Gentiles.
 
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WPM

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If satan is currently locked up now, how is he currently(now/today) able to deceive the nations?

There was a spiritual deception over the Gentiles before the cross that has now been lifted. The darkness has been confronted and exposed and overcome through the Light of the truth. That light is centred in the person and message of Christ. Satan is no longer able to deceive the Gentiles in this New Testament age in the same manner and scope as he deceived them prior to Jesus binding Satan at the cross.

Scripture repeatedly identifies the Messianic intra-Advent period as the time of the enlightenment of the Gentiles. This does not in any way insinuate that all will be saved. Not in any way. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles are now without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted.

When Scripture speak about the enlightenment of the Gentiles and the removal of the deception it doesn’t mean that every Gentile will be saved, but that the Gospel message and opportunity would be extended to them as a whole – just like Israel experienced it in the Old Testament.

Zacharias the father of John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost in Luke 1:67-80 and prophesied: “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life … Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.”

Jesus came to shine a light of truth into the world. The reality is: He was truth because He was God. He epitomized all that was truth. In John 14:7 He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” In Revelation 22:6 He is described as: “faithful and true.”

Jesus said in John 8:12 I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

John 12:46 "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.”

He shined the light and it dispelled the darkness. In fact, wherever this light shines it removes ignorance and deception and enlightens and sets men free. No one could surely deny that this light has been shining strong upon the Gentiles for 2,000 year. The evidence is there for all to see.

Through the indwelling Holy Spirit (who reveals Christ in us), and the preaching of the Word of God, The Church now manifest that light throughout the nations. God has availed the Gentiles an opportunity to embrace the light. They are no longer without excuse. It is not therefore a question of whether the light came, or that it exists, but will the Gentiles receive it and believe it.

Ephesians 5:8: For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light.”

Just because most don't believe doesn't mean the blindfold of ignorance has not been removed with the global preaching of the Gospel. Just because you and I are enlightened doesn't mean sin doesn't exist within us. Your reasoning therefore doesn't add up.
 
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Timtofly

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Who then are these wicked Christ-rejectors who follow Satan in their billions after your supposed earthly millennium? Are they sinless or sinners in your mind?
They are deceived by Satan. Has nothing to do with being a sinner or sinless.
 

Timtofly

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Deception is sin. Being deceived by the devil is sin. The Word of God and the Holy Spirt show us that being deceived by Satan, rejecting Christ and following the devil is sin and leads to one being damned for all eternity. To think otherwise is gross deception! It is delusional! Those who have eyes to see will grasp this truth.

Jeremiah 17:9 states: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

Deceitfulness is sin. It is wicked.

C H Spurgeon: “if you had no devil to tempt you, no enemies to fight you, and no world to ensnare you, you would still find in yourself evil enough to be a sore trouble to you, for ‘the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked’.”

Oba 1:3 The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee,

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Revelation 20:3, 7-10: "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season ... And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
You are talking about Adam's disobedience, and the punishment passed on by one man's disobedience.

Adam and Eve listened to Satan. But it was Adam who disobeyed God.

Being deceived at the end is their only sin. They were not sinners prior to being deceived by Satan. If following Satan was their act of disobedience, they could only do that after Satan was loosed from the pit, not before that moment.
 

WPM

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You are talking about Adam's disobedience, and the punishment passed on by one man's disobedience.

Adam and Eve listened to Satan. But it was Adam who disobeyed God.

Being deceived at the end is their only sin. They were not sinners prior to being deceived by Satan. If following Satan was their act of disobedience, they could only do that after Satan was loosed from the pit, not before that moment.

Hello! 1 sin makes 1 a sinner. How can they be born naturally and not be sinners? That is ridiculous.
 

Timtofly

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Hello! 1 sin makes 1 a sinner. How can they be born naturally and not be sinners? That is ridiculous.
How can they be deceived by Satan before they are born?

Are they deceived in the womb by Satan, or when they are old enough to march across the breadth of the earth?

How can they march before they are born? You keep placing their decision to follow Satan prior to their own birth. They are not in disobedience until they actually follow Satan across the earth.
 

Timtofly

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Yes, it does. Don't be ridiculous. Sinners are open to be deceived by the devil.
So was Eve. Eve was not a sinner though. A sinner is already deceived, because they are born in deception.

You are skipping the part where sin has yet to enter the world during the Millennium and passed down from generation to generation by sinners. Until any human can disobey, and gets away with it, and God let's them pass sin down, there is no Adam and Eve scenario where sin is allowed to take root and grow.

My comparison with Adam and Eve is prior to Eve being deceived by Satan, because those humans were without sin prior to being deceived by Satan, which you claim as "deception" as their very first sin they ever committed. You defined deception as a sin, not me. They were consumed by fire because as you put it they were deceived by Satan, thus sinners. I just pointed out they were consumed by fire before they could even sin. God did not even let them get as far as the point Adam ate, and disobeyed God.
 

WPM

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Thank You Brother,
i am currently sanctioned to deliver my son to self-defense class now, so will be out for a couple hours

Interest Points - i am in full agreement with you on scripture in that satan was defeated by Christ and that he does not have the same access to the Throne as he did with Job.

If satan is currently locked up now, how is he currently(now/today) able to decieve the nations?

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit,
and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more
till the thousand years were finished.
But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Peace

Did you get to look at my respones?
 

WPM

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So was Eve. Eve was not a sinner though. A sinner is already deceived, because they are born in deception.

You are skipping the part where sin has yet to enter the world during the Millennium and passed down from generation to generation by sinners. Until any human can disobey, and gets away with it, and God let's them pass sin down, there is no Adam and Eve scenario where sin is allowed to take root and grow.

My comparison with Adam and Eve is prior to Eve being deceived by Satan, because those humans were without sin prior to being deceived by Satan, which you claim as "deception" as their very first sin they ever committed. You defined deception as a sin, not me. They were consumed by fire because as you put it they were deceived by Satan, thus sinners. I just pointed out they were consumed by fire before they could even sin. God did not even let them get as far as the point Adam ate, and disobeyed God.

This is all fiction. It is a fairy tale. You have no Scripture to support it. No Premil I know believes this.
 

WPM

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How can they be deceived by Satan before they are born?

Are they deceived in the womb by Satan, or when they are old enough to march across the breadth of the earth?

How can they march before they are born? You keep placing their decision to follow Satan prior to their own birth. They are not in disobedience until they actually follow Satan across the earth.

Are they "in Adam" or "in Christ"? You refuse to answer that. That is the only 2 peoples in the world.
 

WPM

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Short posts i can hit pretty quick but when they are lengthy i need time to digest in order for a correct response.

Makes sense.

I have been studying this subject since 2000. When all the wild claims of that year didn't come to pass, I felt i needed to dig deeper and find what was what for myself. My studies are evolving.
 
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Timtofly

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This is all fiction. It is a fairy tale. You have no Scripture to support it. No Premil I know believes this.
What happens after the Second Coming is in Scripture. You just apply it to a different creation. Obviously pre-mill teaching is wrong. That does not make Amil any less fiction and a fairy nightmare.
 

Timtofly

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Are they "in Adam" or "in Christ"? You refuse to answer that. That is the only 2 peoples in the world.
They are in Christ and reign with Christ.

Do you think Christ uses and works with any other type of human in the Millennium? I don't, so don't see your made up fiction they are still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.
 

WPM

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They are in Christ and reign with Christ.

Do you think Christ uses and works with any other type of human in the Millennium? I don't, so don't see your made up fiction they are still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Oh. So, they are mortal believers that are born sinless and remain so for 1000 years until Satan appears whereupon they change sides and sin grossly against the Lord by turning their back on Him by embracing Satan? So, do they all end up in the Lake of Fire?
 
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WPM

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You are skipping the part where sin has yet to enter the world during the Millennium and passed down from generation to generation by sinners. Until any human can disobey, and gets away with it, and God let's them pass sin down, there is no Adam and Eve scenario where sin is allowed to take root and grow.

My comparison with Adam and Eve is prior to Eve being deceived by Satan, because those humans were without sin prior to being deceived by Satan, which you claim as "deception" as their very first sin they ever committed. You defined deception as a sin, not me. They were consumed by fire because as you put it they were deceived by Satan, thus sinners. I just pointed out they were consumed by fire before they could even sin. God did not even let them get as far as the point Adam ate, and disobeyed God.

So, to reject Christ and follow Satan is not sin in your eyes? What nonsense! So being deceived by the lie of Satan is not sin either? More nonsense!

Where does it say that there is no sin in a future millennium to be "passed down from generation to generation"?

Open your Bible and read it. Deception is sin. Being deceived by the devil is sin. The Word of God and the Holy Spirt show us that being deceived by Satan, rejecting Christ and following the devil is sin and leads to one being damned for all eternity. To think otherwise is gross deception! It is delusional! Those who have eyes to see will grasp this truth.

Jeremiah 17:9 states: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

Deceitfulness is sin. It is wicked.

C H Spurgeon: “if you had no devil to tempt you, no enemies to fight you, and no world to ensnare you, you would still find in yourself evil enough to be a sore trouble to you, for ‘the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked’.”

Oba 1:3 The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee,

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Revelation 20:3, 7-10: "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season ... And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
 

David in NJ

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There was a spiritual deception over the Gentiles before the cross that has now been lifted. The darkness has been confronted and exposed and overcome through the Light of the truth. That light is centred in the person and message of Christ. Satan is no longer able to deceive the Gentiles in this New Testament age in the same manner and scope as he deceived them prior to Jesus binding Satan at the cross.

Scripture repeatedly identifies the Messianic intra-Advent period as the time of the enlightenment of the Gentiles. This does not in any way insinuate that all will be saved. Not in any way. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles are now without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted.

When Scripture speak about the enlightenment of the Gentiles and the removal of the deception it doesn’t mean that every Gentile will be saved, but that the Gospel message and opportunity would be extended to them as a whole – just like Israel experienced it in the Old Testament.

Zacharias the father of John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost in Luke 1:67-80 and prophesied: “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life … Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.”

Jesus came to shine a light of truth into the world. The reality is: He was truth because He was God. He epitomized all that was truth. In John 14:7 He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” In Revelation 22:6 He is described as: “faithful and true.”

Jesus said in John 8:12 I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

John 12:46 "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.”

He shined the light and it dispelled the darkness. In fact, wherever this light shines it removes ignorance and deception and enlightens and sets men free. No one could surely deny that this light has been shining strong upon the Gentiles for 2,000 year. The evidence is there for all to see.

Through the indwelling Holy Spirit (who reveals Christ in us), and the preaching of the Word of God, The Church now manifest that light throughout the nations. God has availed the Gentiles an opportunity to embrace the light. They are no longer without excuse. It is not therefore a question of whether the light came, or that it exists, but will the Gentiles receive it and believe it.

Ephesians 5:8: For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light.”

Just because most don't believe doesn't mean the blindfold of ignorance has not been removed with the global preaching of the Gospel. Just because you and I are enlightened doesn't mean sin doesn't exist within us. Your reasoning therefore doesn't add up.

EXCELLENT & BEAUTIFUL = Great Truth here in your post - thank you

As with all of us who are seeking to walk in the Light just as HE is LIGHT, we read God's word and it is our spiritual nourishment.

And this is how we LIVE unto God = thru the Living Spiritual Words of God.
Jesus says: "The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life." - John 6:63

Now, embark on the journey of Truth with me for there is some adjustment to be made.

Our Lord Jesus Christ commands each one of us this - Matthew 4:4
“It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’

Let us do exactly as our Lord commands us - Amen

You said: "Satan is no longer able to deceive the Gentiles in this New Testament age in the same manner and scope as he deceived them prior to Jesus binding Satan at the cross."

Truth = the LIGHT of the world has come to ALL the world, Jew & Gentile, no one is left out.
However the LIGHT of the glorious Gospel of Christ continues to be viciously opposed by satan, the same as he was doing from the Beginning.

Believe what Jesus tells us - John 8:42-44
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Right now, Today, the Gospel is being spread throughout the world and all who hear, whom the Father calls, will come to Christ.
Today, at this present time, the devil/satan is flooding the world with his lies and thru his lies he deceives the nations.

1Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 "But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

This same Devil, called Satan is doing the exact same thing he started in the Garden from the Beginning = deceiving mankind.

Only when the LORD Jesus Christ Returns and locks up Satan will the whole world, Jew & Gentile, be free from satan's deceptions.

This is why, we as believers, are commanded to completely rely on God's Word, the Holy Spirit and fellowship in the Body of Christ.
We are still living here on earth "in the evil day" whereby we must fight the good fight of faith against the deceptions of satan.

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Ephesians 6:10-13

This is our Spiritual Calling & Fight until the day we leave this earth and enter into His Presence.

Peace to Everyone who calls upon the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ