Another Premillennial absurdity

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,636
4,246
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, since you could find no other place than this earth, for the Lord to rule them that remain after the battle, you just revert to ignoring plain words of Scripture to keep your own favorite tradition.

I had hopes for you. It would have been interesting to hear your possible alternatives.

Nevertheless, I'm not a sounding board for learned mantras.

Revelation 20:4 says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be (plural future middle indicative) priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign (plural future middle indicative) with him a thousand years.”

This is speaking from the perspective of the "first resurrection." This can only relate to Christ's glorious victory over the grave that allowed the "souls" of God's people to rise to the heavenly abode during the intermediate state to reign with Christ.

The focus here is what results from the “first resurrection.” It is not just that the elect secure eternal salvation and are saved from the terror of eternal punishment (the second death) but it is that they become kings and priests as a result of this great victory over every enemy that has held man down. It is important to see that the wording here is made in the context of the resurrection. It commenced the millennial period, when Jesus defeated the grave. There is no other first resurrection.

We are reigning now. We are kings and priests on earth now. The "dead in Christ" are kings and priests in heaven now. After we identified with this resurrection we entered into the heavenly reign of Christ in life on earth (in its yet imperfect sense) and in glory (in its more perfect sense) when He comes again.

Acts 17:28 tells us, “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.”

Through Christ – and what He has secured at Calvary – we now have our standing and inheritance. We possess a spiritual power within us from above since Pentecost that will assure us victory in the many spiritual challenges we face on this earth.

The New Testament respectfully states that we are what we are and we will be what we will be “through Christ” “in Christ” or “by Christ.” Ephesians 5:30 describes the spiritual oneness found in Christ: “For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.” Our “life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3). That means we “are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power” (Col 2:11).

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

We are kings now!!! We therefore reign now!!! This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord. This shows what we are now positionally and spiritually “in Christ” – which is reigning in delegated authority will be realised in all its eternal glory physically when we are glorified at Christ’s Coming. The elect of God become kings and priests in salvation when they enter into all the riches of Christ and His glorious power. We become joint-heirs with Him in His current reign and marvellous glory. We become imitators of Him in His humble and contrite earthly ministry. Here again Calvary is given as the transaction that enabled believers to enter into the two spiritual offices described here – kingship and priesthood. Without the cross-work we could never have realised these heavenly privileges.

This dual role of kingship and priesthood is not just restricted to the redeemed in heaven, or does it commence at entry into the heavenly shore, it begins upon this earth at the new birth. The family of God today are positionally reigning as kings and priest in both heaven and on earth. They perform such an awesome function in and through the person of Christ and His impeccable life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection. In fact, 1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifice
and intercede for the people. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.

We are presently a kingly priesthood. This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord.

Many Christians are under the mistaken impression that their spiritual kingship and place of reigning in Christ is all yet future; however, whilst our reign is assuredly future, it is also assuredly present.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. Such was secured through Christ's victorious work at Calvary. There, Christ defeated every enemy of righteousness – including sin, death, the grave, hell, Satan, sickness, the demonic realm, and so on. The people of God, being “in Christ,” have therefore entered into that victory and have been given kingdom authority over the demonic realm through the blood of Jesus when moving in the Spirit and in the will of God. In fact, the word "shall" in the King James Version doesn't actually appear in the original but is added by the translators.

Listen to what Paul teaches in Romans 8:16-17: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Being “joint-heirs with Christ” means that we enjoy the benefits and privileges of what He won for us through His sinless life, His atoning death, and His victorious resurrection. What is more, as "joint-heirs with Christ" we reign because He reigns.

When we put on Christ in salvation we entered into His kingdom and therefore came under His kingship, which resulted in us being placed in heavenly authority with kingly robes. The elect of God today “are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:20). The reason being, “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The Greek word for “heir” is kleronomos meaning ‘getting by apportionment’, it can be interpreted ‘an inheritor or a possessor’. This is what happens upon salvation, we were adopted into the family of God and became one with Christ, whereupon, through Christ, we assumed a heavenly inheritance.

Christians do not lose any of their spiritual power when they die, they continue to reign "in Christ" because they are one with Him. They rule because He rules. It is Premil that always wants to diminish the power and authority of Christ and His Church in life and in death. They present a BIG devil, and a small god, instead of a small devil and a BIG God.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
True, and overcomers unto the end will be resurrected at His second coming, to be His armies with Him upon the earth, and reign with Him over them that remain.

And out of them, only the naturally neighborly sheep will be left to be blessed by the Lord's righteous rule over all nations.

Or be sentenced quickly as transgressors.

No more unjust justice of man, that allows the wicked to appeal for decades, so that when sentenced is done, no one notices, and no one is warned by it.

Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

When we are in Christ, we are overcomers in this life. Yes, because we are overcomers, when Christ comes again we will be bodily resurrected and changed to live again with Christ forever on the new earth.

Christ has already come with His armies from heaven. And He has commanded His Church to take the Gospel unto all the world, with the power of Christ's Holy Spirit the Church is waged in this war against the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies on earth. The sword that proceeds out of the mouth is the Word of God (Gospel) the Church proclaims. It is through the Word, the Gospel of salvation that He smites the nations and rules with a rod of iron. The Word smites all who are changed by it. Once smitten Christ rules from heaven over all who have been saved by the Word, with His rod of iron.

It is through the Lord's chastening that we know He loves us and that we are His children, and partakers of life with Him.

Hebrews 12:6-8 (KJV) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Christian Gedge

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,696
2,630
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I appreciate your offer, but I like to see your beliefs in writing with scriptural support, this will allow others to engage also

I'm not much on responding to a video, and claims made in it

Feel free to give your explanation of Luke17, waiting?
I make videos so that I won't need to create long posts.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
11,977
3,764
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Any scriptures to back that up?

Inhabit? Where is that taught in scripture?
I answered your question(s), now you answer mine

Once Again, Three Questions Before The Forum?

1.)
Do you believe Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God?

2.) Do you believe Jesus Christ created all things?

John 1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

3.) Do you believe the Godhead was within Jesus Christ when he walked upon this earth in a human body as seen below?

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,696
2,630
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why is Jesus a theophany in the first century, but not when Jesus appeared to Abraham with two angels?

I don't use the term theophany. I just used it in my question, since that is your terminology.

Hebrews 13:8

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

It was always Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ appeared to Abraham.
The term "theophany" comes from the Greek words "theos", meaning "God," and "phaneia" meaning "appearance." Theophany refers to physical manifestations of God in the Bible. The burning bush, for instance, is a theophany. Whenever the transcendent creator needs to represent himself in our reality, he creates an avatar, allowing people to interact with his avatar.

Jesus was never a theophany. He is not an avatar of God. The Bible teaches us that Jesus is a man, born to the virgin Mary, growing up in Nazareth, beginning his ministry around the age of 30, tempted by Satan, ate meals, obeyed his mother, worked as a carpenter, walked from place to place, cried when his friends died, allowed himself to be captured, convicted, and put to death on a cross. The Father, brought him back from the dead, and he ascended to sit at the right hand of the father.

In Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, speaking about God the Father, he says, "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things." Here Paul draws a distinction between "God" and "his Son", claiming that it was God, not his son, who spoke long ago. It wasn't Jesus who appeared to Abraham, it was God who appeared to Abraham. It wasn't until the later days that God spoke to us in his Son. The son wasn't with God in the former days, he appeared in the later days.

He tells us that the Son inherited all things, implying that the Son didn't create all things. Rather, he (the Son) was granted all things. One does not inherit what one has created.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
11,977
3,764
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe Jesus Christ appeared to Abraham and showed him the nail prints, and the spear wound in His side? That Abraham understood Jesus would rise from the dead some 2,000 years in the future?
Please provide biblical support for your claims made, waiting?
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,636
4,246
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The term "theophany" comes from the Greek words "theos", meaning "God," and "phaneia" meaning "appearance." Theophany refers to physical manifestations of God in the Bible. The burning bush, for instance, is a theophany. Whenever the transcendent creator needs to represent himself in our reality, he creates an avatar, allowing people to interact with his avatar.

Jesus was never a theophany. He is not an avatar of God. The Bible teaches us that Jesus is a man, born to the virgin Mary, growing up in Nazareth, beginning his ministry around the age of 30, tempted by Satan, ate meals, obeyed his mother, worked as a carpenter, walked from place to place, cried when his friends died, allowed himself to be captured, convicted, and put to death on a cross. The Father, brought him back from the dead, and he ascended to sit at the right hand of the father.

In Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, speaking about God the Father, he says, "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things." Here Paul draws a distinction between "God" and "his Son", claiming that it was God, not his son, who spoke long ago. It wasn't Jesus who appeared to Abraham, it was God who appeared to Abraham. It wasn't until the later days that God spoke to us in his Son. The son wasn't with God in the former days, he appeared in the later days.

He tells us that the Son inherited all things, implying that the Son didn't create all things. Rather, he (the Son) was granted all things. One does not inherit what one has created.

Your heretical views are exposed by the Word of God. Your fight is with that. The New Testament narrative, in John 1:1-5, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

Verse 10-14 continues, He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

This passage shows, in unmistakable language, that “the Word” is Christ. It reveals the King of Glory in all His marvelous provision, purpose and power. The reading outlines His eternal pre-existence, powerfully revealing Him as the eternal Son of God; “The same was in the beginning with God” (v 2). Whilst, Christ was man of very man, He was also God of very God. Verse 1 succinctly says, “the Word was God.” Therefore, as the second person of the Trinity, He was the eternal Creator of this world.” Verse 10 tells us, “the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”

I Corinthians 8:6 says: “there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

This is a common trait performed by the cults when engaging with them. They change the original words to mean the opposite to what they are. They butcher the original language. The Greek word dia is actually a primary preposition denoting: "the channel of an act" (Strong's). Jesus was the channel whom the Father worked through. He was the Creator. How do you sleep at night knowing you are going to have to face Jesus some day and account for twisting the Word of God and deceiving people?

The Bible acknowledges Jesus as the Word, the Creator.

Ephesians 3:9 tells us: “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

Colossians 1:13-17 says: “Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

According to the text, the pre-incarnate Christ was the Creator of all that exists.

This passage, which is speaking of Jesus, tells us that “all things were created by him, and for him” which would clearly make Him God.

Hebrews 1:2 &10 says, God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom (or dia hos) also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.”

Firstly, as Strong’s correctly explains: the word dia (which is rightly interpreted “by” here) is “a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act.” In the case we are looking at it tells us that it was through the channel or agency of the “Son” that God “made the worlds.” This is clear and simple for those that don’t need to reinterpret it. The word hos (rendered “whom”) is simply “the relatively (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that.” There is absolutely no ground to negate the meaning of the commonly used Greek words. They show what repeated Scripture tells us that Jesus is God/Creator.

These verses show the pre-existence of Christ the Son of God the Creator.

This is the only time in the Bible that this word is found.

The phrase “express image” derives from the lone Greek word charakter which means what it says: “character.” Christ is “the brightness of” God’s “glory” and the “charakter of his person.” Christ is the physical manifestation or representation of the invisible God. He is indeed the “express image” of Almighty God. Jesus is God. God physically is expressed in the person of Christ.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: rwb and jeffweeder

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,696
2,630
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your heretical views are exposed by the Word of God. Your fight is with that. The New Testament narrative, in John 1:1-5, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

Verse 10-14 continues, He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

This passage shows, in unmistakable language, that “the Word” is Christ. It reveals the King of Glory in all His marvelous provision, purpose and power. The reading outlines His eternal pre-existence, powerfully revealing Him as the eternal Son of God; “The same was in the beginning with God” (v 2). Whilst, Christ was man of very man, He was also God of very God. Verse 1 succinctly says, “the Word was God.” Therefore, as the second person of the Trinity, He was the eternal Creator of this world.” Verse 10 tells us, “the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”

I Corinthians 8:6 says: “there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

This is a common trait performed by the cults when engaging with them. They change the original words to mean the opposite to what they are. They butcher the original language. The Greek word dia is actually a primary preposition denoting: "the channel of an act" (Strong's). Jesus was the channel whom the Father worked through. He was the Creator. How do you sleep at night knowing you are going to have to face Jesus some day and account for twisting the Word of God and deceiving people?

The Bible acknowledges Jesus as the Word, the Creator.

Ephesians 3:9 tells us: “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

Colossians 1:13-17 says: “Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

According to the text, the pre-incarnate Christ was the Creator of all that exists.

This passage, which is speaking of Jesus, tells us that “all things were created by him, and for him” which would clearly make Him God.

Hebrews 1:2 &10 says, God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom (or dia hos) also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.”

Firstly, as Strong’s correctly explains: the word dia (which is rightly interpreted “by” here) is “a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act.” In the case we are looking at it tells us that it was through the channel or agency of the “Son” that God “made the worlds.” This is clear and simple for those that don’t need to reinterpret it. The word hos (rendered “whom”) is simply “the relatively (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that.” There is absolutely no ground to negate the meaning of the commonly used Greek words. They show what repeated Scripture tells us that Jesus is God/Creator.

These verses show the pre-existence of Christ the Son of God the Creator.

This is the only time in the Bible that this word is found.

The phrase “express image” derives from the lone Greek word charakter which means what it says: “character.” Christ is “the brightness of” God’s “glory” and the “charakter of his person.” Christ is the physical manifestation or representation of the invisible God. He is indeed the “express image” of Almighty God. Jesus is God. God physically is expressed in the person of Christ.
I wish I could explain to you how long and how thoroughly I investigated this matter. I have read scholars and participated in many discussions on-line. I have read and reviewed your post, which simply repeats the work of others. Nothing you say about the subject is news to me. I've read it all before.

My question to you is this. Is Jesus a human being?
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,636
4,246
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I wish I could explain to you how long and how thoroughly I investigated this matter. I have read scholars and participated in many discussions on-line. I have read and reviewed your post, which simply repeats the work of others. Nothing you say about the subject is news to me. I've read it all before.

My question to you is this. Is Jesus a human being?

Frankly, I don't care how long you have studied this or how many scholars you have read. Many heretics have done the exact same. Please address the actual Scripture text instead of inventing your own theology.
 
  • Like
Reactions: covenantee

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,696
2,630
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Frankly, I don't care how long you have studied this or how many scholars you have read. Many heretics have done the exact same. Please address the actual Scripture text instead of inventing your own theology.
You failed to answer the question. That's all I need to know about you.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
11,977
3,764
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Was Jesus human or not?
I answered your question(s), now you answer mine

Once Again, Three Questions Before The Forum?

1.)
Do you believe Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God?

2.) Do you believe Jesus Christ created all things?

John 1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

3.) Do you believe the Godhead was within Jesus Christ when he walked upon this earth in a human body as seen below?

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.