Another Premillennial absurdity

[WPM]

Yes, it is necessarily so.

Not according to Deuteronomy 7:6

I didn't say Christ returns more than a second time. Keep guessing and you will always guess wrong.

1 Thessalonians 4:17


When Jesus calls his disciples into the air, that is NOT the second coming. The Greek word "parusia" means "presence", which is when Jesus returns to the earth to remain present and rule over all the nations.

So, you a Pretribber?

 

[rwb]

Yes, it is necessarily so.

Not according to Deuteronomy 7:6

I didn't say Christ returns more than a second time. Keep guessing and you will always guess wrong.

1 Thessalonians 4:17


When Jesus calls his disciples into the air, that is NOT the second coming. The Greek word "parusia" means "presence", which is when Jesus returns to the earth to remain present and rule over all the nations.

Deuteronomy 7:6 (KJV) For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Colossians 3:12 (KJV) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Hebrew Chosen:

בָּחַר bâchar, baw-khar
a primitive root; properly, to try, i.e. (by implication) select:—acceptable, appoint, choose (choice), excellent, join, be rather, require.

Greek Chosen:

ἐκλέγομαι eklégomai, ek-leg'-om-ahee
middle voice from G1537 and G3004 (in its primary sense); to select:—make choice, choose (out), chosen.

Greek Elect:

ἐκλεκτός eklektós, ek-lek-tos'
from G1586; select; by implication, favorite:—chosen, elect.

Isaiah 45:4 (KJV) For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Hebrew Elect:

בָּחִיר bâchîyr, baw-kheer'
from H977; select:—choose, chosen one, elect.

Mark 13:20 (KJV) And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

There is no difference between the Hebrew and Greek. The elect of God are the chosen of God, and the chosen of God are the elect.

I know why you would pull 1Th 4:17 out of context. You must to have two separate comings of Christ. First you say He comes to gather His elect where you apparently believe they will be with the Lord in the air for how long ?????? Then you say He will physically come down to this earth to establish His kingdom here, for apparently one thousand years???? That's what one could believe when taking 1Th 4:17 out of context.

According to the context, when Christ returns with His saints it will be with a loud shout and those who have physically died in Christ will be caught up with Him first, then those who remain alive at His coming caught up with Him in the clouds. Then there will be sudden destruction upon those who were not looking for His coming again, and think the world is at peace and safety. At His coming again sudden destruction comes upon them, and they shall not escape. Because when the Lord is revealed from heaven it will be in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that do not know God, and do not obey the Gospel of our Lord. The punishment of the wicked at His coming will be with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. While the saints who are with Him are then glorified.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (KJV) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (KJV) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 (KJV) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

In context Paul describes the second coming of Christ as total and complete destruction of all who remain on earth after the saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. You want us to believe this is not the end of this world, because your doctrine has blinded you from seeing what is plain. You invent two more comings of Christ, because you have not rightly divided the Word. Instead, you have bought into the lie of millennialism.

In addition to Paul's words of Christ's coming in Thessalonians, he says in Peter that not only are the wicked utterly destroyed at His coming, but the earth also and all the works upon it shall be utterly destroyed by the fervent heat of the fires that shall come.

2 Peter 3:7 (KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:10-12 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[Truth7t7]

I never denied that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the Flesh. I denied that Jesus is deity. Two different things.

Three Questions Before The Forum?

1.) Do you believe Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God?

2.) Do you believe Jesus Christ created all things?

John 1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

3.) Do you believe the Godhead was within Jesus Christ when he walked upon this earth in a human body as seen below?

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[rwb]

Are you one of those who affirm dogma by virtue of a religious belief or do you actually have reasons for what you believe?

First I am informed by my study of Scripture. And I have much appreciation for the dictionaries and concordances, as well as faithful men of God, from which I have learned much. What I will not do is waste my time seeking truth from you. Since you've proven from your posts here the doctrine you espouse is unbiblical.

 

[Truth7t7]

None of that is true IF the earth is dissolved by fire when Jesus returns.

Please explain your statement in greater detail

None of "What" is true?

 

[WPM]

This is not Zionism. And the Bible does teach that God will return Israel back to the land. You have been misled.

Christ is the fulfilment of the OT type. Your fixation with Israel causes you miss the biblical focus on Christ.

 

[rwb]

This is not Zionism. And the Bible does teach that God will return Israel back to the land. You have been misled.

Why? For what purpose will God return Israel back to the promised land? Please don't say it's because God needs to vindicate/restore His holy name!

 

[Truth7t7]

Why? For what purpose will God return Israel back to the promised land? Please don't say it's because God needs to vindicate/restore His holy name!

Possibly the poster CadyandZoe believes ethnic Jews are going to rule the world from Jerusalem in his belief of a Millennial Kingdom on earth, I will be corrected if I'm wrong?

 

[rwb]

Possibly the poster CadyandZoe believes ethnic Jews are going to rule the world from Jerusalem in his belief of a Millennial Kingdom on earth, I will be corrected if I'm wrong?

Could be, but that still doesn't help him, since when Christ returns the second time His Kingdom will be complete. That makes returning to the promised land, and even keeping the old law perfectly can never give them eternal life.

 

[robert derrick]

One of the main problems Premillennialism has is that it has a glorified Jesus bringing back all the redeemed of all the ages that have enjoyed perfect communion with Christ in His majestic heavenly presence since the time He defeated sin and death 2000 years ago, giving them new eternal incorruptible bodies at His second coming, along with the living in Christ, rewarding them with eternal bliss, and then bringing them back to a corruptible millennial earth filled with degenerates, death, decay and depravity, just like our present day. It is just another re-run of our current evil age.

Premillennialism has saints that have been delivered from a sinful world thousands of years ago being forced to come back to watch the folly of the rebuilding of a new temple, the debacle of futile animal sacrifices, the restoration of the old covenant priesthood, continued sin, death and decay. Finally, the saints will have to engage in literal physical spiritual warfare in their glorified bodies with Satan and his global mortal army – Gog and Magog. They will be confronted with the awful sight of Satan being released from his prison to mobilize a global assault upon Jesus and the glorified saints in earthly Jerusalem. This army will consist of all the millennial mortals that have feigned worship to the Lord Jesus Christ for a thousand years turning in their billions at the drop of a hat from following Jesus to following Satan as the sand of the sea.

This whole portrayal is ridiculous and nonsensical, and will never happen.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

God always has Scripture that must either be accepted as plainly written and correct the teaching, or is must be ignored altogether or twisted, so as to keep one's own false teaching.

He and His saints shall rule them with a rod of iron: Them being the remnant of them smitten among the nations.

Scripture says there will be a them for the Lord to rule over after the battle, and others says there won't be any such rule over them.

 

[Truth7t7]

Could be, but that still doesn't help him, since when Christ returns the second time His Kingdom will be complete. That makes returning to the promised land, and even keeping the old law perfectly can never give them eternal life.

I agree, but the poster hasn't given a glimpse of what he/she believes, your still in chapter (1) of (20) chapter book, smiles!

 

[Truth7t7]

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

God always has Scripture that must either be accepted as plainly written and correct the teaching, or is must be ignored altogether or twisted, so as to keep one's own false teaching.

He and His saints shall rule them with a rod of iron: Them being the remnant of them smitten among the nations.

Scripture says there will be a them for the Lord to rule over after the battle, and others says there won't be any such rule over them.

There won't be any them as you claim, Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

A future Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a fabricated fairy tale of man, found no place in scripture

 

[rwb]

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

God always has Scripture that must either be accepted as plainly written and correct the teaching, or is must be ignored altogether or twisted, so as to keep one's own false teaching.

He and His saints shall rule them with a rod of iron: Them being the remnant of them smitten among the nations.

Scripture says there will be a them for the Lord to rule over after the battle, and others says there won't be any such rule over them.

Perhaps understanding how to define overcomers will be helpful? When we are in Christ, and His Spirit in us, we are overcomers through Him. We become overcomers in this life when we have known Christ and His Word abides in us, we have overcome the wicked one. Because greater is He who is in us than he that is in the world.

1 John 2:13 (KJV) I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1 John 2:14 (KJV) I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

1 John 4:4 (KJV) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Through the Spirit of Christ in us we have overcome and through the same Spirit will be kept for good works. Through this promise we have power over the nations through the Gospel we proclaim in the power of the Spirit in us.

Philippians 2:13 (KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[WPM]

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

God always has Scripture that must either be accepted as plainly written and correct the teaching, or is must be ignored altogether or twisted, so as to keep one's own false teaching.

He and His saints shall rule them with a rod of iron: Them being the remnant of them smitten among the nations.

Scripture says there will be a them for the Lord to rule over after the battle, and others says there won't be any such rule over them.

What does the word "rule" mean in the original Greek?

Where does it say that this is future? Every other Scripture depicts the second coming as the end.

Where does it say that Jesus is on earth in Revelation 20?

Where in Revelation 20 does it say that Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron?

 

[robert derrick]

What does the word "rule" mean in the original Greek?

Where does it say that this is future? Every other Scripture depicts the second coming as the end.

Where does it say that Jesus is on earth in Revelation 20?

Where in Revelation 20 does it say that Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron?

It's not how men define their words, that prove Scriptural truth, but how God uses men's words in Scripture, that prove His doctrine.

He used rule them, to say He will rule them. Them is the remnant of the smitten nations. That rule will be with a rod of iron. It will be the righteousness He will judge the earth with.

Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

Since you accept the plain use of words in the Scripture, which is laudable, then it is up to you to try and prove the Lord ruling over that remnant of them smitten, is not on this earth, and/or not for a thousand years.

Scripture says it will be the Lord and His overcoming saints, that will be ruling over those nations with power. It will be immediately with the destruction of the armies at Armageddon. This earth will not be scorched until a thousand years after that first resurrection of His return.

And so, if not this earth, then where? I am open to Scriptural suggestion.

 

[Timtofly]

According to the context, when Christ returns with His saints it will be with a loud shout and those who have physically died in Christ will be caught up with Him first, then those who remain alive at His coming caught up with Him in the clouds.

Wait, what?

Those saints who return with Jesus are those already physically dead.

The only dead people are those in Christ physically alive in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Those saints with Jesus are the risen dead who have risen first. They are not coming to claim their dead Adamic flesh. The church in Paradise is meeting the church on earth in the air, and then the whole church is glorified, and the complete restored image of God as the sons of God. 1 John 3:2

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

All of humanity was created as sons of God. Not all will be restored as sons of God.

We are not in the full image of God until the 5th and 6th Seal are opened. The church will be with the Lord from that time in Paradise until Paradise comes down as the New Jerusalem. Jesus will be on the earth as King from that time until Jesus hands back creation to God. That is the Day of the Lord, the Millennial Kingdom.

If Jesus was coming back for the dead, no one would be coming with Jesus. Why do Amil accept earth is physically on fire, but yet deny that Jesus comes to earth physically and still chooses some on earth as physical firstfruits for a physical earthly kingdom. All this has to happen prior to Jesus physically handing creation back to God. In Noah's Day it was a baptism of water. At the Second Coming it will be a baptism of fire. Yet life on earth continued after both judgments.

 

[robert derrick]

What does the word "rule" mean in the original Greek?

Where does it say that this is future? Every other Scripture depicts the second coming as the end.

Where does it say that Jesus is on earth in Revelation 20?

Where in Revelation 20 does it say that Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron?

However, there is also another plain Scripture, proving that it will be Abraham himself and his seed given the land, that he walked upon after separating from lot.

And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

The same land Abraham walked upon this earth at that time, will be given to Abraham personally in a future time, and not just to his seed, nor to David at the time of his kingdom on earth. The Lord will give it to Abraham himself.

Job also will see the Lord on this earth at the latter days:

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.

This means that both resurrected Abraham and Job will be on this earth at the Lord's return, which begins with the day of the Lord's battle at Armageddon.

Will they all leave to rule the remnant elsewhere, after Abraham's walk?

I suppose it's possible, even though this earth will remain another thousand years before being scorched. So why not just do it here?

It can't be on the new earth, which will not be until after the passing of the old earth and heaven.

I'm not mocking you, because I see you are an honest believer, that takes Scripture seriously. Everyone else I presented the challenge to just ignored it. However, you do see the problem of finding another place, for the Lord and His saints to rule with power over the remnant of smitten nations, when they are already certainly standing on this earth, and the new one will not be for at least another thousand years.

I mean, seriously, what's the problem with them all remaining on this earth to do so during that time of unused earth? Why not? What's the big deal about it?

I read your dismal description of the earth during that time, but that looks more like your opinion, than the reality of the Lord ruling with righteousness over all the earth, with the help of His glorified saints, that are in fact promised to judge this earth:

Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

I really don't see why not? Especially since the sun shall shine 7 times brighter, and the lion will lay down with the lamb, and there will be no more warfare permitted.

Also, it will begin only with the naturally neighborly sheep left alive after the battle, while the wicked goats will be killed off also, to join them destroyed in the battle itself.

Remember, they shall see Him coming with clouds in the air of this earth, and many shall mourn, and not all killed.

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Only those at Armageddon, shall be these that make war with the Lamb and destroyed in battle. Once again, Scripture words taken literally, so that not all the inhabitors of the earth will come to make war at Armageddon. There will be many others hiding caves and dens of rocks.

There's much more to fill in some gaps, but still I just don't see why Christians don't want there to be a thousand year reign with Christ over the nations of this earth, judging them in righteousness, and ensuing the peace.

I mean, it's not like I'm rejecting the spiritual teaching of our born again resurrection in Christ at this time, walking in newness of life with the Lord, Which walking with Him is indeed in joy and goodness after a thousand years, is the same in freshness and liveliness as day one.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[Truth7t7]

It's not how men define their words, that prove Scriptural truth, but how God uses men's words in Scripture, that prove His doctrine.

He used rule them, to say He will rule them. Them is the remnant of the smitten nations. That rule will be with a rod of iron. It will be the righteousness He will judge the earth with.

Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

Since you accept the plain use of words in the Scripture, which is laudable, then it is up to you to try and prove the Lord ruling over that remnant of them smitten, is not on this earth, and/or not for a thousand years.

Scripture says it will be the Lord and His overcoming saints, that will be ruling over those nations with power. It will be immediately with the destruction of the armies at Armageddon. This earth will not be scorched until a thousand years after that first resurrection of His return.

And so, if not this earth, then where? I am open to Scriptural suggestion.

Jesus Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So, you a Pretribber?

No, I believe we are in the GT right now and we have been since the stoning of Stephan. That would make me a Post Tribber.

 

[CadyandZoe]

There is no difference between the Hebrew and Greek. The elect of God are the chosen of God, and the chosen of God are the elect.

Of course. I never said otherwise.

I know why you would pull 1Th 4:17 out of context. You must to have two separate comings of Christ.

Not really. If one understands that a "coming" of a king takes place when the king arrives in a city, then one does not confuse the rapture with the Second Advent. At the time of the rapture, Jesus' disciples go to him; at the second advent, Jesus comes down to Jerusalem to be present there in his capital city.

First you say He comes to gather His elect where you apparently believe they will be with the Lord in the air for how long ??????

The Bible doesn't specify the duration. All we know is that the followers of Christ meet him in the air, that is, in the clouds.

Get this, Daniel says that the messiah will come on the clouds of the sky, Jesus repeats this, at first privately to his disciples, and then publicly in front of his accusers. The messiah is coming on the clouds. His coming on the clouds will be visible from the ground and this miraculous event will be a sign to the Jews, that the messiah has come. Matthew 24:30. The sign of the son of man will appear in the sky, Jesus says. The followers of Jesus will be present with him in the sky, while the Jewish people, living in Jerusalem, will be located on the ground looking up.

During his "son of man" prophecy, Jesus speaks of this event with the following cryptic statement. "Where the body is, there also the eagles will be gathered.” Luke 17:37 This symbolically refers to the time when Jesus is seen coming on the clouds. "The body" symbolically represents the newly assembled Jewish people, who have returned to the land. "The eagles" symbolically represent Christ and his followers who are located above, up in the sky.

"The Body" is a short-hand reference to Ezekiel's prophecy of the dry bones. In that picture, Israel is seen as a group of dry, disconnected bones laying out in the hot sun. At the command, the bones begin to assemble themselves into a complete body. And the Lord gives flesh to the body. And eventually, he puts his spirit in the body. Ezekiel 37:1-14

At the turn of the 20th century, the bones began to return to Israel, gathered together into a body. In 1947, the Lord gave the bones a body. And today we are witness to the body of Israel. But the Lord has not yet given that body a new spirit. We await this day.

Then you say He will physically come down to this earth to establish His kingdom here, for apparently one thousand years????

Yes, at the second advent, Jesus returns to fulfill our prayer that the Father will make his name holy and that his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. From that moment forward into eternity, "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’" Daniel 7:27.

The millennial period isn't the limit of his kingdom or his dominion. The essential purpose of the millennial period serves the Father's purpose to make his name holy again. After the father is satisfied that he has accomplished that purpose, it will be time for the final battle, the destruction of the earth, and the NHNE.

According to the context, when Christ returns with His saints it will be with a loud shout and those who have physically died in Christ will be caught up with Him first, then those who remain alive at His coming caught up with Him in the clouds. Then there will be sudden destruction upon those who were not looking for His coming again, and think the world is at peace and safety. At His coming again sudden destruction comes upon them, and they shall not escape.

That's right, But this particular "sudden destruction" is limited to the region known as Palestine and it takes place BEFORE the second advent. This particular "sudden destruction" is symbolically represented as the "Trumpet" judgments of Revelation. These are called "trumpet" judgments, in my opinion, because they represent the shofar, which is blown as a warning of impending war and devastation. This particular "sudden destruction" is limited in scope and duration, which is symbolically represented as "one third". A fuller, more complete destruction comes later, which is symbolically represented as "bowls of wrath."

Because when the Lord is revealed from heaven it will be in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that do not know God, and do not obey the Gospel of our Lord. The punishment of the wicked at His coming will be with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. While the saints who are with Him are then glorified.

The flaming fire takes place just before the second Advent, when God sends his armies of fire against Israel one last time. These fires burn up all the arrogant evil doers, leaving alive only those who fear his name. Malachi 4:1-3 But these particular fires are directed at Israel only. The general punishment of the rest of the wicked comes later.