How would you describe the difference between the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. Horeb, and the New Covenant? In the most simple terms?
Much love!
Abiding In Christ Necessary for Eternal Life
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Much love!
I'm saying something that hits the ear a little odd--your having partaken will retroactively never have occurred if you do not continue in faith.
It's irrelevant. The issue is God forgets righteousness--that dynamic is at play bc He doesn't change. How does it manifest itself in your "take" on Scripture?
God doesn't change, but He does do different things with different people at different times. Adam was to not eat a piece of fruit. Noah was to build an ark, Abraham was promised children. Same God each time.
In the OT Covenant which God made with the nation of Israel, righteousness was through the Law, and if you were obedient, or if you were disobedient, that was your state of righteousness. No one kept the Law sufficiently to live from it however, and God even then accepted belief in Him, and give a covering for unrighteousness.
In the Gospel of grace in Jesus Christ, righteousness is given us by God, apart from Law.
These passages in Ezekiel 3, and 18, for instance, are in the context of righteousness by the Law.
Ezekiel 18:4-9 KJV
4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5) But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6) And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7) And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8) He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9) Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 18:20-29 KJV
20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22) All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25) Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26) When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27) Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28) Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29) Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
This is actually a conversation between God and Israel, concerning their covenant.
I'm thinking it was there, because it was blotted out. If it was never there, it could not be blotted out. In the Revelation, the distinction given between those who are and are not in the Book of Life, is that some names "remain written". And as we've seen in other passages, some names are blotted out.
Whose names remain written?
Blessed is the man to whom sin is not imputed!
Much love!
Philip James
Well-Known Member
well, I'm just a Catholic schlub, but the Word has been written on my heart... so you'll forgive me if I'm unimpressed..
Pax et Bonum
Things He has people do is irrelevant, doesn't change Who God is (God's character, what God does).
God forgets righteousness--what righteousness is may have changed, but His forgetting righteousness cannot.
For the purposes for which names are written there it was never there.
No, names being blotted out is only ever with regard to His people and their sinning against Him.
No, I know what you are saying, "as if it never was", I just don't see that allowed by the text. This isn't the same thing as "I'll forget your righteousness". Here He is saying, You've forever become a partaker, while you seem to be including the idea, "except it may not be forever".
I think this concerns the difference between the New Covenant and the Sinai covenant. In the Sinai covenant, it's based on what they did. In the New Covenant, it's based in what Jesus did.
But I cannot emphasize sufficiently that this passage is giving a condition by which you can know whether or not you are actually a partaker of Christ, that the continuance of your faith is the demonstration that you did in fact forever-become a partaker of Christ.
And by the use of the Perfect tense, this notion that you may cease to be a partaker is prohibitted. This has nothing to do with anything other then the grammar of these sentences.
Much love!
I understand your perspective--as explained, I 100% agree with the individual parts of your argument, I only disagree with the conclusion of your argument, which does not take into account that God forgets righteousness.
Let's go to "first mention".
Exodus 32:31-33 KJV
31) And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
There are names in a book. When the people sin, they are blotted from His book. Are we on the same page?
Much love!
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Dear expert Peter,
perhaps you missed to whom the letter is being addressed:
My children, 1 I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin.
Pax et Bonum
@marks An example of what this means would be Paul saying "I could wish that I could be accursed", not "someone died".
1 Corinthians 1:27-31 KJV
27) But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28) And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29) That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Much love!
We'll see.
Not just "people", but "His people" . Not all people are in His book.
Just as Moses said to blot his name out, Paul said he wished he could be accursed--the meaning being blotted out is being accursed, cut off from God.
33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Not just anyone?
Psalms 69:28 KJV
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
The way I understand this, God has a book with the names of all humanity written in it. Sinners are blotted out from the book. Those to whom sin is not imputed are not blotted from the book, and their names remain written.
Much love!
No, if that's case, if you believe me are born spiritually dead, no one would be in the book as a "default".
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