22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[RLT63]

I've already explained it to you more than once. You don't pay any attention to what anyone tells you because all you can do is just repeat yourself over and over without thinking about what anyone else says and responding to it directly. You've been shown that the beast "was, and is not" as of the time John wrote the book and you are apparently afraid to address how you can reconcile your understanding of the beast with that.

He was and is not and yet is Revelation 17:8

 

[RLT63]

I think it is only fair if people make big speaks that they should be required to explain it biblically. After all, it is a Bible discussion forum.

I did.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I did.

Hmm…lol…but if he didn’t HEAR the tree fall, it did not make a sound…

 

[WPM]

All 7 of your points have been answered in this thread, your eschatology and theology is "Dangerous" you deny a future AOD, Great Tribulation, And literal human man as John's (The Beast) "Scary" deception, reader "Beware"!

Jesus Is The Lord

If you cannot address the arguments above then admit you are in error and change, instead of throwing out all your unnecessary insults. Until you do, i will take your avoidance as a smokescreen to hide your error.

 

[Truth7t7]

​

If you cannot address the arguments above then admit you are in error and change, instead of throwing out all your unnecessary insults. Until you do, i will take your avoidance as a smokescreen to hide your error.

All 7 of your "Exact" points have been answered "In Full" in this thread, your eschatology and theology is "Dangerous" you deny a future AOD, Great Tribulation, And literal human man as John's (The Beast) "Scary" deception, reader "Beware"!

 

[WPM]

​

All 7 of your "Exact" points have been answered "In Full" in this thread, your eschatology and theology is "Dangerous" you deny a future AOD, Great Tribulation, And literal human man as John's (The Beast) "Scary" deception, reader "Beware"!

I have addressed two of seven weaknesses in your position below, but you still cannot answer it. All you have is your usual robo response. I will repeat it:

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

This passage strongly shows that the beast existed prior to the day of John, stating, “the beast that was.” Notwithstanding, the terminology that follows appears slightly contradictory – “is not, and yet is.” One could be tempted to reason: it either is or else it isn’t, notwithstanding, this reading plainly says that it both “is” and “is not.” The import of the reading appears to demonstrate that the beast did exist in John’s day, and in fact, before John’s day, but that it had not fully developed into what it would eventually become. There is a saying in Northern Ireland that appears to explain this reading – ‘He is a big fellow, but a wee jacket fits him’ i.e. ‘he is not as big as he thinks he is’. This appears to be the meaning.

Revelation 17:11-13 further enlarges, “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

A plain reading of these passages proves that, whatever the beast truly represents, he/it was expressly in existence before the time that John received this symbolic revelation. The beast cannot therefore merely be a last few years end-time phenomenon, as some would have us believe. After all, he existed before John wrote Revelation. We learn through the apostle’s first century testimony that the beast expressly “was” (past tense). In fact, the passage mentions this fact three times (twice in verse 8, and once in verse 11). Therefore, he existed before John. He also existed at the time of John – who said of his day, the beast “is” (present tense). John then explained that the beast would continue after his day, saying it “shall” be (future tense). In fact, Scripture tells us that the beast, and the false prophet, will only finally be destroyed at the all-consummating second coming of the Lord, where they will be “cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone” (Revelation 19:20). Why would this world system be destroyed at Christ’s coming and then re-emerge in a future millennium as the sand of the sea?

Revelation 17:7-8: “And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

What human has 7 heads? Hello! You hermeneutics are messed up. Why will you not tell us what the seven heads of the beast are? That is because to do so would totally demolish your argument. The seven heads, which are mountains, represent seven worldly kingdoms. Of these 7 kingdoms, 5 are prior to John’s prophecy, 1 present to him and 1 is yet future. Moreover, the 7th kingdom is predicted to manifest for “a short space.” Interestingly, there is an 8th kingdom. This is the beast himself, obviously rising up in his own right rather than in a delegated sense (through other evil earthly empires) like before.

The beast is said to integral to the other 7 previous kingdoms; this beast “was” before John – obviously manifesting through the 5 tributary kingdoms before John, he “is” to John in the form of the 1 kingdom in existence at the time of John, and 1 is still future to John as it has “not yet come.” Additional to this we learn, “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” The 7 kingdoms are 7 heads on the beast – thus the beast is described as being “of the seven.” The 7 heads are part of this being. The number seven is significant as it normally represents completeness in Scripture. This book places the beast within the complete scheme of this dark antichrist reign.

 

[WPM]

Scripture below identifies the man of sin with the personal pronoun "Him" a human man

"Them" and "They" below are identifying a group of unsaved, not the "Him" living inside this group as you falsely claim

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10KJV
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The Beast will have the unsaved world's allegiance, and he will be a individual human man as scripture teaches in Revelation chapter 13 and 19 as seen below, described by personal pronouns He, His, Him, that will be cast living into the lake of fire as seen in Revelation 19:20

Revelation 13:4-8KJV
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 makes a similar statement, only from the opposite point of view, saying, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

I don’t believe anyone would argue with any credence that this title is restricted to one lone human being – quite the opposite. It is speaking of a composite man. It is not limited to only males, it also embraces females. It is a generic term. It is representative of all the redeemed. The phrase “the man of God” in 2 Timothy 3:16 is a broad expression representing all of the righteous or all those “in Christ.” Likewise, the phrase “the man of sin” could be viewed as embodying the antithesis group – all the wicked – rather than any one particular individual.

This doesn't in any way suggest that there is one singular man of God. No, it is rather descriptive of the spiritual influence that marks the righteous. Likewise, the man of sin (lawlessness) is descriptive of the spiritual influence that marks sinful man. We are clearly looking at the spirit of this world, the spirit of Antichrist, the spirit of error.

I believe another major weakness in the he-and-him argument is seen in how readily and effortlessly Futurists get their head round calling the whore of Babylon “she” and “her” – even though they would never dream of insisting that she was a literal physical woman.

This totally undermines the literalist reasoning!

The literalist argument seems selective, inconsistent, contradictory and untenable. From my experience, Futurists insist on literalism when it suits their argument, but, when it doesn’t, they swiftly and conveniently discard it.

Revelation 17:1-16: “And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.”

Revelation 18:3-11: “For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more.”

What literal woman do you know is so large that they have the ability to sit on seven mountains at the same time?

 

[Truth7t7]

2 Timothy 3:16-17 makes a similar statement, only from the opposite point of view, saying, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

I don’t believe anyone would argue with any credence that this title is restricted to one lone human being – quite the opposite. It is speaking of a composite man. It is not limited to only males, it also embraces females. It is a generic term. It is representative of all the redeemed. The phrase “the man of God” in 2 Timothy 3:16 is a broad expression representing all of the righteous or all those “in Christ.” Likewise, the phrase “the man of sin” could be viewed as embodying the antithesis group – all the wicked – rather than any one particular individual.

This doesn't in any way suggest that there is one singular man of God. No, it is rather descriptive of the spiritual influence that marks the righteous. Likewise, the man of sin (lawlessness) is descriptive of the spiritual influence that marks sinful man. We are clearly looking at the spirit of this world, the spirit of Antichrist, the spirit of error.

I believe another major weakness in the he-and-him argument is seen in how readily and effortlessly Futurists get their head round calling the whore of Babylon “she” and “her” – even though they would never dream of insisting that she was a literal physical woman.

This totally undermines the literalist reasoning!

The literalist argument seems selective, inconsistent, contradictory and untenable. From my experience, Futurists insist on literalism when it suits their argument, but, when it doesn’t, they swiftly and conveniently discard it.

Revelation 17:1-16: “And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.”

Revelation 18:3-11: “For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more.”

What literal woman do you know is so large that they have the ability to sit on seven mountains at the same time?

Denial of a future literal human man as seen and presented, is 1,000X more dangerous for the unaware, than Teaching of a Pre-Trib Rapture or Millennial Kingdom

Your belief and teaching is "Scary" in future deception to the unaware, in concealing the future identity of the Little Horn, Man Of Sin, The Beast

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

Your claim is false, it's the number of "A Man"

Strongs (Of A Man) Revelation 13:18

Strong’s Definitions
ἀνήρ anḗr, an'-ayr; a primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male):—fellow, husband, man, sir.

Strong’s Definitions
ἄνθρωπος ánthrōpos, anth'-ro-pos; from G435 and ὤψ ṓps (the countenance; from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:—certain, man.

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[WPM]

The 7 heads and 10 Horns are symbolic representations that are explained in Revelation chapter 17, your claims are a diversion from the basic interpretation found in scripture

LOL. You are the one insisting that "he" and "him" proves that the beast is a literal man. But when we present the detail attributed to this man you symbolize it away. How convient! What then do these 7 heads and 10 Horns represent?

 

[WPM]

Denial of a future literal human man as seen and presented, is 1,000X more dangerous for the unaware, than Teaching of a Pre-Trib Rapture or Millennial Kingdom

Your belief and teaching is "Scary" in future deception to the unaware, in concealing the future identity of the Little Horn, Man Of Sin, The Beast

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

Your claim is false, it's the number of "A Man"

Strongs (Of A Man) Revelation 13:18

Strong’s Definitions
ἀνήρ anḗr, an'-ayr; a primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male):—fellow, husband, man, sir.

Strong’s Definitions
ἄνθρωπος ánthrōpos, anth'-ro-pos; from G435 and ὤψ ṓps (the countenance; from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:—certain, man.

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Here we go again. Total avoidance and robo response.

666 is the number of “man,” not the number of “a man.” There is no “a” in the original Greek. It was added by the translators, most of whom believed the Pope was thee antichrist. The Greek simply reads: gár (for) esti (it is) arithmós (number) anthrōpos (man) kai (and) hautou (his) arithmós (number) chi xi sigma (666).

 

[Truth7t7]

Here we go again. Total avoidance and robo response.

666 is the number of “man,” not the number of “a man.” There is no “a” in the original Greek. It was added by the translators, most of whom believed the Pope was thee antichrist. The Greek simply reads: gár (for) esti (it is) arithmós (number) anthrōpos (man) kai (and) hautou (his) arithmós (number) chi xi sigma (666).

Read Strongs Again and Again, "A Human Being" "Individual Male"

Denial of a future literal human man as seen and presented, is 1,000X more dangerous for the unaware, than Teaching of a Pre-Trib Rapture or Millennial Kingdom

Your belief and teaching is "Scary" in future deception to the unaware, in concealing the future identity of the Little Horn, Man Of Sin, The Beast "Dangerous"

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

Strongs (Of A Man) Revelation 13:18

Strong’s Definitions
ἀνήρ anḗr, an'-ayr; a primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male):—fellow, husband, man, sir.

Strong’s Definitions
ἄνθρωπος ánthrōpos, anth'-ro-pos; from G435 and ὤψ ṓps (the countenance; from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:—certain, man.

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[Truth7t7]

Here we go again. Total avoidance and robo response.

666 is the number of “man,” not the number of “a man.” There is no “a” in the original Greek. It was added by the translators, most of whom believed the Pope was thee antichrist. The Greek simply reads: gár (for) esti (it is) arithmós (number) anthrōpos (man) kai (and) hautou (his) arithmós (number) chi xi sigma (666).

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[The Light]

Matthew 24:4-14 is the whole church age from the Cross until the Second Coming, known as the fulness of the Gentiles.

The Church age is over BEFORE any seals are opened. Here are 24 elders in heaven with reward crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Here is the Church as promised kings and priests in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The Seals are Matthew 24:29-31.

Here. AGAIN, look. Matthew 24:29-31 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. It is marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. How can you miss this?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You are trying to reconcile the whole book of Revelation with a few verses in one chapter. You need to reconcile Matthew 24 with the whole book of Revelation instead..

You are not understanding what you are reading. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:1-31 what will happen to the JEWS. The church age is over BEFORE the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel which is determined upon the people of Daniel.

The Second Coming happens before the Trumpets and Thunders. This is the final harvest. The majority of humanity will be removed from life, and given their eternal existence. If you don't see this as unprecedented trouble, what is God's wrath in the 7 vials for? God is not judging Satan's Babylonian Kingdom in the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus and the angels along with the 144k are evangelizing and gathering the sheep and goats, Israel out of all the Nations. Jesus is sitting on His throne in a temple in Jerusalem. That is not symbolic. That is the literal ministry of Jesus on earth as King. Just like the earthly ministry in the first century, except the whole world, not just the narrow strip of Land currently called Syria, Lebanon, and Israel.

You are trying to move the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 to sometime at the end of the trumpets. This event happens at the 6th seal. THEN THE TRUMPETS BEGIN after the 6th seal with the opening of the 7th seal. Trumpets are the wrath of God. When the 7th trumpet sounds the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Jesus has returned with the armies of heaven, which means that Armageddon has already happened BEFORE the 7th trumpet. You can stop right there. That's the end of the story. IT'S DONE. The wrath of God is over. You don't need to read anymore. You have the story.

Do you want to get a different view of the story with more details? What you see in Revelation 13 and 14 occurs in seals. You are getting another view of what happens. Here is the great tribulation that you see in Matthew 24 and you see at the 5th seal. Here it is again.

The Great Tribulation - Shown in scripture AGAIN.
Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The coming of Jesus for the harvest that you see in Matthew 24:29-31, That occurs at the 6th seal. Shown in scripture AGAIN

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The wrath of God that you see coming on the earth at the end of the 6th seal, and comes on the earth with the opening of the 7th seal. Shown in scripture coming on the earth AGAIN.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The vials of Gods wrath are just a different view of the trumpet of wrath.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Church age is over BEFORE any seals are opened. Here are 24 elders in heaven with reward crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Here is the Church as promised kings and priests in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Here. AGAIN, look. Matthew 24:29-31 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. It is marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. How can you miss this?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.



You are not understanding what you are reading. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:1-31 what will happen to the JEWS. The church age is over BEFORE the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel which is determined upon the people of Daniel.





You are trying to move the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 to sometime at the end of the trumpets. This event happens at the 6th seal. THEN THE TRUMPETS BEGIN after the 6th seal with the opening of the 7th seal. Trumpets are the wrath of God. When the 7th trumpet sounds the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Jesus has returned with the armies of heaven, which means that Armageddon has already happened BEFORE the 7th trumpet. You can stop right there. That's the end of the story. IT'S DONE. The wrath of God is over. You don't need to read anymore. You have the story.

Do you want to get a different view of the story with more details? What you see in Revelation 13 and 14 occurs in seals. You are getting another view of what happens. Here is the great tribulation that you see in Matthew 24 and you see at the 5th seal. Here it is again.

The Great Tribulation - Shown in scripture AGAIN.
Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The coming of Jesus for the harvest that you see in Matthew 24:29-31, That occurs at the 6th seal. Shown in scripture AGAIN

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The wrath of God that you see coming on the earth at the end of the 6th seal, and comes on the earth with the opening of the 7th seal. Shown in scripture coming on the earth AGAIN.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The vials of Gods wrath are just a different view of the trumpet of wrath.

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Your claim the Church is in heaven prior to the second coming is "False"

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[The Light]

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Your claim the Church is in heaven prior to the second coming is "False"

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Wake up. He is talking to the Jews.

Here is His message to the Gentiles. The Gentiles will not be here to see all these things as they will escape all these things AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Secondly we see the 24 elders in heaven with reward crowns in Revelation 4. Do you pretend that's not there?

 

[RLT63]

He was and is not and yet is Revelation 17:8

During the future tribulation period, the world will be ruled by a godless man presiding over an evil governmental system. The Bible associates this end-times ruler with a terrible beast in Revelation and in Daniel.
In Revelation 13 John sees a nightmarish vision of a dragon and two beasts. The first beast comes out of the sea and receives power from the dragon, or Satan. This beast is a true monstrosity: “It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion” (Revelation 13:1–2). Daniel’s vision of the beast is similar in many ways to John’s (Daniel 7:7–8, 19–27). Studying both Daniel and Revelation in tandem is profitable.

In Revelation, the term beast refers to two related entities. Sometimes “the beast” refers to the end-times’ empire. The seven heads and ten horns indicate that the beast will be a coalition of nations that rises to power to subdue the earth under Satan’s control. Later references to “the beast” in Revelation picture an individual—the man who is the political leader and head of the beastly empire.

The beast will receive a deadly wound and be healed of it (Revelation 13:3). He will exert authority over the whole world and demand worship (verses 7–8). He will wage war against God’s people, and he will prevail against them for a time (Revelation 13:7; Daniel 7:21). However, the beast’s time is short: according to Revelation 13:5 and Daniel 7:25, he will only be permitted absolute authority for forty-two months (three-and-a-half years).

I believe that the beast in Revelation is the Antichrist the one who will “oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God” (2 Thessalonians 2:4). He is also called “the man of lawlessness” and “the man doomed to destruction” (2 Thessalonians 2:3). In Daniel’s vision, the Antichrist is the “little horn” that rises from the head of the terrifying beast (Daniel 7:8).

When the Lord returns in judgment, He will defeat the beast and destroy his empire (Revelation 19:19–20; cf. Daniel 7:11). The beast will be cast alive into the lake of fire. The identity of the individual who will become the beast of Revelation is not yet known. According to 2 Thessalonians 2:7, this man will be revealed only when God removes the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit from the earth.

It is interesting to compare the differing biblical visions of the kingdoms of the world. In Daniel 2, King Nebuchadnezzar dreams of the kingdoms of the world as “a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance” (Daniel 2:31). The prophet Daniel later sees a vision of the same kingdoms, except he sees them as hideous beasts (Daniel 7). In John’s vision of the final worldly kingdom, the empire is portrayed as a grotesque and misshapen beast. These passages present two very different perspectives on the kingdoms mankind builds. Man sees his creations as imposing monuments and works of art fashioned of valuable metals. However, God’s view of the same kingdoms is that they are unnatural monsters. And the beast of Revelation will be the worst of them all.

 

[Truth7t7]

Wake up. He is talking to the Jews.

Here is His message to the Gentiles. The Gentiles will not be here to see all these things as they will escape all these things AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Secondly we see the 24 elders in heaven with reward crowns in Revelation 4. Do you pretend that's not there?

Wake up, Jesus is speaking of "The Church" that is being persecuted for the name of "Jesus Christ" Christians, your claim fails again

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Your claim the Church is in heaven prior to the second coming is "False"

Luke 21:17 & 25-28KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[The Light]

Wake up, Jesus is speaking of "The Church" that is being persecuted for the name of "Jesus Christ" Christians, your claim fails again

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Your claim the Church is in heaven prior to the second coming is "False"

Luke 21:17 & 25-28KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Wake up, and pay attention.

When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the rapture of the Church, part of Israel will have its blindness removed. We are warned not to be ignorant of this, so don't be.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It is the seed of the woman that the dragon pursues as he cannot get to the woman, those in the nation of Israel that will flee to a place of protection. The seed of the woman is the 12 tribes across the earth.

So as I said it is the Jews that Jesus is talking to. You can pretend that there are not 24 elders in heaven with reward crowns all you want. It will not change the facts.

 

[WPM]

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Why can you not address counter arguments? Please stop avoiding. It is only serving to expose your theology.

 

[Truth7t7]

Wake up, and pay attention.

When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the rapture of the Church, part of Israel will have its blindness removed. We are warned not to be ignorant of this, so don't be.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It is the seed of the woman that the dragon pursues as he cannot get to the woman, those in the nation of Israel that will flee to a place of protection. The seed of the woman is the 12 tribes across the earth.

So as I said it is the Jews that Jesus is talking to. You can pretend that there are not 24 elders in heaven with reward crowns all you want. It will not change the facts.

No such thing as a pre-second coming rapture as you claim, the church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming, your claim the church is in heaven before the second coming is "False", Bend, Twist, Tear, your claims fail

Wake up, Jesus is speaking of "The Church" that is being persecuted for the name of "Jesus Christ" Christians, your claim fails again

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Your claim the Church is in heaven prior to the second coming is "False"

Luke 21:17 & 25-28KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.