22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

Sacrifices are named in Scripture after Jesus returns to the earth. Whether or not anyone on earth understand why God would do this is beside the point. The point is, the Bible says this will be so, though I know you reject the idea. Nonetheless, it's what the Bible says. Zechariah 14 is one place.

Will you acknowledge that someone does not need to explain why God would or would not do something, or have us do something, for that something to be valid?

That no one has to expain why there would be animal sacrifices offered in the kingdom, as some requirement of showing Biblically that these sacrifices will in fact be offered? Can you acknowedge that? I'm not trying trap you in a corner, I'm trying to free you from an invalid argument.

Much love!

Most Christians accept the repeated teaching of Scripture that the old ceremonial sacrificial system has been done away in Christ on the cross. The New Testament forbids the introduction of such a system. The burden of proof is with you to show us in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament where Jesus teaches the reintroduction of your covenant arrangement in a future millennium. You have not (so far), and you obviously cannot (by your avoidance and uncomfortableness). That is why you are talking around the subject now. You're obviously cornered and have nothing to bring to the table.

What is the purpose of these animal sacrifices in your supposed future millennium? Why will you not tell us?

 

[WPM]

Have you considered that the Law is a single unit? There isn't a "ceremonial law" that is somehow separate from a "moral law" that is somehow separate from a "civil law". They are the commandments of God. You have no authority to subdivide God's Law. James wrote that if you break one law you are a lawbreaker, that's that.

Jesus spoke of "the least of these commandments", and He did not come to abolish the Law, not one jot or tittle, not the smallest marking in teh text is to be abolished until . . . Curiously . . . all be fulfilled.

Much love!

So, are you keeping the moral law now?
Are you practicing the ceremonial law now? Does your pastor do blood sacrifices?

 

[WPM]

Will there be sacrifices in the new Temple? When the Lord’s righteous people go to live in all of the Holy Land, soon after it is cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of fiery wrath, Ezekiel 34:11-31, they will build a new Temple in Jerusalem, according to the details given in Ezekiel 40-46

Many Old Testament prophesies attest to this, how it will be built by men from far away, Zechariah 6:15, and it will be greater than the former ones. Haggai 2:9

The New Testament too, makes it clear there will be a Temple, 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 11:1-2, that will exist until the end of the Millennium, when God Himself will be the Temple. Revelation 21:22


We are told that during this age of Church dispensation, Christ is our high priest and we are the spiritual Temple, 2 Cor. 6:16 and no sacrifices are required. Hosea 9:4

Hebrews 9 & 10:1-21 are the scriptures that clearly tell us that Jesus made the once and forever sacrifice for the expiation of our sins. Now there is no Temple and Christians are His ‘body’ on earth. This is just for the time from the early church until the new Temple is built, when there will again be offerings and thanksgiving gifts made by the Lord’s holy people. Isaiah 56:1-8, Daniel 12:1, Revelation 7:9-14


Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 9:26-27 tells us how, in the last days, an invading leader will make a peace treaty with the holy people, but will break it and put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. Obviously there will be sacrifices and offerings taking place, for him to stop them.

This is confirmed by the prophesies detailing how it will be during the period the righteous people of God will be living the Land before the Return of Jesus:


Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favour to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the Temple.

Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.


The context of these scriptures proves that all this will be for the last days’ period before the Return of Jesus. What will happen during the Millennium - there will be priest’s then. Revelation 20:6 and the Lords House will be on the holy Mountain. Zechariah 14:16-21

But we know there will be no Temple in Eternity. Revelation 21:22 Which actually shows there will be a Temple before Eternity.

What is the purpose of these animal sacrifices in your supposed future millennium?

Hebrews 8:6 declares: “now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Christ came to save sinners and He completed that perfectly, in that He secured eternal redemption for his elect through His death (Hebrews 5:8-9). He now sits at the right hand of majesty interceding for His elect.

Hebrews 9:14-15 confirms this: “the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament [diathēkē], that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”

Hebrews 12:22 & 24 sums it all up: “ye are come unto ... Jesus the mediator of the new covenant [diathēkē], and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

The cross does not seem satisfactory, efficacious and final enough for Premillennialism. It wrongly and strongly promotes the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in the future (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21). They advocate the restarting of the “meat offering” (Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “trespass offering” (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “burnt offerings” (Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “peace offerings” (Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12, Zechariah 14:16-21) and the “drink offerings” (Ezekiel 45:17, Zechariah 14:16-21).

This is despite the fact that the New Testament Scripture makes clear that Christ was the final sacrifice for sin (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 28, 10:10, 12, 14 and 1 Peter 3:18) and that there are no more offerings for sin (Hebrews 9:26, 10:18, 26 and 1 John 3:5). The reality is, one can search the New Testament pages, but can search Revelation 20 from start to finish, and there is not the slightest allowance for such a religious sham in the presence of Jesus in the age to come. They will never happen, neither for atonement or memorial. This is a Premil invention! Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered.”

 

[WPM]

Your claim is false, however you promote preterist eschatology in 66-70AD fulfillment

You deny that the 3 items below are future and literal, correct me if I'm wrong?

Please give your explanation of how, when, where, these will or have been fulfilled?

1.) A future literal human man Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), John's (The Beast) all the same bad guy known as (The Antichrist)

2.) A future literal 3.5 year tribulation, that starts when this human man is revealed to the world

3.) A future time of the (Two Witnesses) Rev 11:3-15 that will have literal bodies that die, and they will bring literal plagues upon a literal world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

I have refuted your Dispy beliefs but you avoid addressing the evidence. I have showed you how it is impossible for the beast to be a human being. You have a major issue with the biblical evidence. Your struggle is with the Bible. That is what Dispensatanists do. If one examines the evidence pertaining to the beast objectively and in detail, you will quickly conclude that the beast cannot be an individual man. That is because:

1. The beast has been around for over 2000 years (Revelation 17:8, Revelation 17:11-13, 1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-3, 5-6, 2 John 1:7, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-13). No man has lived that long on earth. Only a wicked spirit or an evil empire could possibly fulfil that portrayal.
2. How can a literal human being be literally “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)? This would suggest him being in every single unsaved person. Only a spirit can do that.
3. The beast carries the allegiance of all the non-elect. No single human being has or ever or will possess that wholesale allegiance. Only a broader worldly spirit enjoys all the loyalty of the wicked.
4. There is nowhere in Scripture that shows human beings in the abyss (Luke 8:31, Romans 10:7, Revelation 9:1, 2, 11, 11:7, 17:8, and 20:1, 3). Any time it is mentioned, it is shown to be the exclusive abode of Satan and his demons.
5. What man possesses 7 heads? These describe 7 wicked kingdoms in history with 7 kings ruling over them. No man can possibly satisfy that.
6. According to the original Greek, and in contrast to what many people teach, 666 is the number of “man,” not the number of “a man.”
7. Finally, what human being in history lives in, and rises up out of, the sea at the end? Such an idea is non-sensical.

 

[Truth7t7]

1. The beast has been around for over 2000 years (Revelation 17:8, Revelation 17:11-13, 1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-3, 5-6, 2 John 1:7, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-13). No man has lived that long on earth. Only a wicked spirit or an evil empire could possibly fulfil that portrayal.

Who is this beast or empire that has been around for 2,000 years?

 

[Truth7t7]

6. According to the original Greek, and in contrast to what many people teach, 666 is the number of “man,” not the number of “a man.”

Your claim is false, it's the number of "A Man"

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[Truth7t7]

2. How can a literal human being be literally “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)? This would suggest him being in every single unsaved person. Only a spirit can do that.

Scripture below identifies the man of sin with the personal pronoun "Him" a human man

"Them" and "They" below are identifying a group of unsaved, not the "Him" living inside this group as you falsely claim

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10KJV
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

[Truther]

In your mind, an object of idolatrous worship.

In their preface to the first KJV, the translators identified you as an adversary.

they all call KJVO's idolatrous for claiming their Bible is the pure word of God.

They also, all call folks racist etc for voting for Trump.


LOL

 

[Truth7t7]

3. The beast carries the allegiance of all the non-elect. No single human being has or ever or will possess that wholesale allegiance. Only a broader worldly spirit enjoys all the loyalty of the wicked.

Your human reason is silenced in scriptural truth below

The Beast will have the unsaved world's allegiance, and he will be a individual human man as scripture teaches in Revelation chapter 13 and 19 as seen below, described by personal pronouns He, His, Him, that will be cast living into the lake of fire as seen in Revelation 19:20

Revelation 13:4-8KJV
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Spiritual Jew asked you: "So, what would be the purpose of these supposed future animal sacrifices then? Use scripture to support your answer."

You answered:



It sounds like you have a lot to hide. You are obviously uncomfortable with your own position. I would be the same. I would be totally ashamed of it. It is one thing to hold to this nonsense but another thing again to promote it on a public board. It is a disgrace for a Christian Pastor to promote this. You are deceiving readers and listeners. You need to apologize and repent.

I asked you:

"What is the purpose of these animal sacrifices in your supposed future millennium? Why will you not tell us?"

You replied:



I then answered it in #4877 and you have still refused to keep your word. It is time for you to keep your word and show your evidence.

If you want your words to have any credibility I would suggest you keep your word.

WPM, I missed your post. But you seem to have also missed mine where I answered you. Don't you remember? I told you, and you rejected, that the temple sacrifices (among other religious practices) mark the people of God as Holy People. Your explanation was way off the mark. God did not prescribe the sacrifices to serve as a temporary covering. This is not a Biblical concept.

Speaking to those who came out of Egypt Moses says,

Deuteronomy 7:6

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.​

Forget about your definition of Holy, because it's all wrong. The word "holy" isn't a synonym of "moral", or "righteous". "Holy" means "consecrated" or "set apart." Suppose a Jew has two bowls, both of the bowls are exactly alike in every way. He uses the first bowl to eat Cheerios; he uses the second to perform sacred rites in the temple. The first bowl is "common"; the second bowl is "holy". No physical difference between the bowls exist. The only distinction between them is an abstract concept known as "holiness", which indicates that one person or thing has been dedicated to serve God.

God brought the people out of Egypt to serve him. He chose them from among all the other peoples of the earth to be his people. These people are like everyone else. They weren't chosen because they were special or different. They became "holy" when God consecrated them for service.

Deuteronomy 14:2

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.​

What marks or identifies them as his holy people? The marker that identifies them as his holy people is keeping his commandments.

Deuteronomy 28:9

The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, as He swore to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways.​

They did not keep his commandments and they suffered the curses. When the curses are completed, they will return to the land, and once again God will call him "my people." And when they return, they will finally keep his commandments.

Deuteronomy 30:6-8

“Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. The Lord your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. ​

The sacrifices were not temporary coverings for sin. They were markers of a holy people. Keeping the commandments, all of the commandments identifies them as his holy people. We could multiply scriptures, which all make the same point. But the entire story from start to finish is told in the book of Deuteronomy.

ALL of the laws, commandments and ordinances will be performed in the Millennial kingdom because, once again, it serves God's plan to vindicate his holy name.

We have yet to explore what that means.

 

[Truth7t7]

5. What man possesses 7 heads? These describe 7 wicked kingdoms in history with 7 kings ruling over them. No man can possibly satisfy that.

The 7 heads and 10 Horns are symbolic representations that are explained in Revelation chapter 17, your claims are a diversion from the basic interpretation found in scripture

 

[Truth7t7]

7. Finally, what human being in history lives in, and rises up out of, the sea at the end? Such an idea is non-sensical.

"Sea" in the Revelation represents multitudes of people, The Beast rises out of these multitudes of people

Your claim in trying to make "Sea" literal oceans of water is laughable, just showing how far you will go to prop up your self guided interpretations

Revelation 17:15KJV
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You don't think it matters that you can't provide any other scripture to support your interpretation of Revelation 20? So, everything else has to be understood in light of Revelation 20 instead of Revelation 20 being understood in light of other scripture?

I said you should apologize for saying I bring *no Scripture!* And I've brought a *lot* more than a single Scripture--you must be blind to it. I said *Abraham's Covenant,* or *promises God made to Abraham,* are behind my beliefs on this. They are found in Gen 12-17.

Furthermore, I indicated the "Jewish Hope" is behind all this, which were prophecies that Israel would "no more be oppressed by their enemies," and that the "knowledge of God would cover the earth as the waters cover the sea." This is hardly just Rev 20!

But instead I get this regular accusation from several Amills that I produce absolutely *no Scriptures* to defend my position. Clearly, that is a lie!

I'm not going to list 20 or so prophecies that the Jews believe refer to the Messianic Age when they are readily available by doing a simple internet search. I'm not going to do all your work for you.

Where? I particularly am interested in where the Bible teaches this multiple kingdom inheritance at the return of Christ that you believe in.

Until the promises Abraham was given by God are fulfilled we must assume that mortal humanity continues. And it is either fulfilled before Christ returns or after he returns. The prophecies of the Messianic Kingdom imply that they are completed only *after* Christ returns.

Jesus gave some details about it. Do they match what you believe? He said in Luke 20:34-36 that those who are worthy to obtain the coming age won't get married and won't die. But, you have people dying during the coming age (and probably getting married, too).

Are you utterly unable to distinguish between those who become immortal and those who have not yet obtained they status? Yes, immortals do not die, do not get married, and inherit the eternal Kingdom. But those who have not yet achieved that remain mortal.

God has been fulfilling His promises to Abraham. Where did these promises include anything about giving a kingdom to mortals that is something different than the kingdom Paul said mortal flesh and blood will not inherit at His second coming?

Unless you have mortals propagating individuals you do not get nations of faith God promised Abraham.

Randy, can you tell me which of the multiple kingdoms that you believe people will inherit when Christ returns that Jesus is referring to here:

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

Do you believe this is referring to the same kingdom Paul referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit? If so, where does Matthew 25:31-46 indicate that any other kingdom will be inherited at that time?

I'm not sure about this passage. It may be the summation of the Millennial Period, in which Christ rules and eventually determines among the Millennial population who will inherit eternal life and who will not. It's a good question, but it certainly doesn't determine my position on the Millennium since it is more directly dealt with in the many passages having to do with the Messianic Age. That requires not just the restoration of Israel, but also the institution of many nations of faith, with Christianity reigning triumphantly during that time period and pagan nations being forced into accepting these Christian conditions.

 

[theefaith]

Do you really believe that the Revelation was only for those seven churches back then? How foolish. In that case all the epistles can be ignored also, since those were all first century churches and are long gone.

And the book of James was only written to men named James!

All men! Lk 1:10
Whole world
Jn 1:29
Jn 3:16
All

 

[theefaith]

I don’t see any rapture or mil kingdom in scripture

 

[WPM]

WPM, I missed your post. But you seem to have also missed mine where I answered you. Don't you remember? I told you, and you rejected, that the temple sacrifices (among other religious practices) mark the people of God as Holy People. Your explanation was way off the mark. God did not prescribe the sacrifices to serve as a temporary covering. This is not a Biblical concept.

Speaking to those who came out of Egypt Moses says,

Deuteronomy 7:6

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.​

Forget about your definition of Holy, because it's all wrong. The word "holy" isn't a synonym of "moral", or "righteous". "Holy" means "consecrated" or "set apart." Suppose a Jew has two bowls, both of the bowls are exactly alike in every way. He uses the first bowl to eat Cheerios; he uses the second to perform sacred rites in the temple. The first bowl is "common"; the second bowl is "holy". No physical difference between the bowls exist. The only distinction between them is an abstract concept known as "holiness", which indicates that one person or thing has been dedicated to serve God.

God brought the people out of Egypt to serve him. He chose them from among all the other peoples of the earth to be his people. These people are like everyone else. They weren't chosen because they were special or different. They became "holy" when God consecrated them for service.

Deuteronomy 14:2

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.​

What marks or identifies them as his holy people? The marker that identifies them as his holy people is keeping his commandments.

Deuteronomy 28:9

The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, as He swore to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways.​

They did not keep his commandments and they suffered the curses. When the curses are completed, they will return to the land, and once again God will call him "my people." And when they return, they will finally keep his commandments.

Deuteronomy 30:6-8

“Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. The Lord your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. ​

The sacrifices were not temporary coverings for sin. They were markers of a holy people. Keeping the commandments, all of the commandments identifies them as his holy people. We could multiply scriptures, which all make the same point. But the entire story from start to finish is told in the book of Deuteronomy.

ALL of the laws, commandments and ordinances will be performed in the Millennial kingdom because, once again, it serves God's plan to vindicate his holy name.

We have yet to explore what that means.

You did not present one single Old Testament Scripture text here that shows "that the temple sacrifices (among other religious practices) mark the people of God as Holy People." There is nothing there that states that was the purpose for these blood sacrifices. You force that into the text to support this error. Is belonging to God, embracing the cross of Christ, and possessing the Holy Spirit not adequate enough to prove someone is "holy"? If that is not enough for you and for them then their destiny is not the world to come but the Lake of Fire. Obviously, the blood of Christ is totally ineffective for the religious phonies that swamp your alleged future millennium.

The reality is: you seem to be as ignorant of the meaning of the old covenant practices as you are of the meaning of the new covenant practices.

What covenant are these millennial sacrifices under? Is this the old covenant restarted or is it a new old covenant? It is definitely not the new covenant!

You have invented a false doctrine here that is offensive to God, contradicts the sacred text and diminishes the work of Christ on the cross. This is a very dangerous error you are promoting here. I urge you to turn.

 

[marks]

if God did not keep His promises to Israel 2000 years ago, how then can we be sure He will keep His word to us in the future?”

You've just given a lengthy argument to show that God went back on His Word. Yes, change came, but not change that makes God a liar.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

You've just given a lengthy argument to show that God went back on His Word. Yes, change came, but not change that makes God a liar.

Much love!

What is the purpose of these animal sacrifices in your supposed future millennium? Why will you not tell us?

 

[theefaith]

No possibility for Protestants to offer worship to God in spirit and truth!

You have no temple!
No ark of the new covenant!
No altar!
No propitiatory sacrifice!
No priesthood!
No possible worship, no adoration, no reparation, no thanksgiving, or petition!
No correct and true faith, apart from Christ, His spirit and His holy divine new covenant church!

 

[WPM]

No possibility for Protestants to offer worship to God in spirit and truth!

You have no temple!
No ark of the new covenant!
No altar!
No propitiatory sacrifice!
No priesthood!
No possible worship, no adoration, no reparation, no thanksgiving, or petition!
No correct and true faith, apart from Christ, His spirit and His holy divine new covenant church!

Can you quote who you are talking to and what you are talking about please? You will see that in the bottom right of each post.