22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Randy Kluth]

Where is this concept of differentiating between living in and inheriting the kingdom of God taught in scripture?

I, of course, don't really need to look into this for myself as I have already given it plenty of thought and study over the years. To me, Paul was making it clear that the only ones who will experience the kingdom of God at Christ's return in any way, shape or form are those whose bodies will be changed to be immortal when Christ returns at the seventh trumpet. I believe he said what he did in 1 Cor 15:50 to show that no one else will get to "live in", inherit or experience the kingdom of God at that time except for believers whose bodies are changed to be immortal. Everyone else will be cast "into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) at that time.

This is exactly what is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus talked about what will happen when He returns with His angels. All people will be separated into two groups which He figuratively referred to as sheep and goats. The sheep represent believers and they will inherit "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world" (Matt 25:34,46). Meanwhile the goats, representing unbelievers, will inherit "eternal punishment" in "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" at that time (Matt 25:41,46).

There is just nothing at all about a temporary earthly kingdom following Christ's return in Paul's writings or in any of the words of Jesus recorded in the gospels.

Okay, we've each said our bit. I differentiate mortals who live in the Age of the Kingdom from those who become immortal and inherit the Kingdom during that time. You see no such differentiation, there being a single instant judgment at the 2nd Coming, separating all mortals from Christian immortals. Thanks for your input.

 

[Truth7t7]

Okay, we've each said our bit. I differentiate mortals who live in the Age of the Kingdom from those who become immortal and inherit the Kingdom during that time. You see no such differentiation, there being a single instant judgment at the 2nd Coming, separating all mortals from Christian immortals. Thanks for your input.

More like all unsaved sinners are destroyed by the Lord's fire in final judgement and the righteous enter the eternal kingdom in the NHNE

 

[WPM]

Your preaching to the Choir, yes Jesus abolished the old covenant

Your response is establishing the fact Jesus has replaced the old, "I agree" a no brainer, your words are a complete distraction from what is seen in Isaiah 66:1-4 & 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

You aren't going to remove the words of scripture below that clearly shows a future temple, and the future delusion God will send

Below you see the word "Temple" and the word "Delusion" only two places in my KJV Holy Bible is the word "Delusion" used, both are in association with a "Temple" with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 showing future events that surround the future second coming of Jesus Christ

This "Temple" and "Delusion" are future unfulfilled

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Isaiah 66:1-4KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

There is a seismic change from the Old Testament to the New Testament in regard to the identity, reality, location and character of the temple. It is constantly referred to in spiritual terms throughout the New Testament, never physical. In fact, the whole old covenant arrangement (including the temple) is shown to be rendered useless, destroyed and replaced by something eternal, heavenly and superior.

We know of numerous passages that demonstrate the termination and replacement of the old covenant with the new covenant (lock, stock and barrel). This cannot surely be disputed by anyone.

Whilst the destruction (desolation) of the temple is predicted in the Old Testament and the New Testament nowhere in Scripture does it talk about the rebuilding of the physical temple in the new covenant period?

This temple is shown to be desolate until the consummation (the end, the second coming, the day when all will finally bow the knee to Him).

Paul repeatedly refers to the temple or tabernacle of God in spiritual terms, never in physical bricks and mortar terms. Why would he suddenly change in 2 Thessalonians? Why would he suddenly (out of nowhere) introduce a physical temple into this text without any New Testament teaching on the rebuilding of such a religious edifice?

What possible purpose would a temple serve to the Jews and the world? To facilitate a human antichrist making a fool of himself in it? This seems absurd and pointless. This teaching is normally held by those who hold Israel in a superior place to all the other nations.

The whole context of 2 Thessalonians is the New Testament Church, not apostate Judaism that has denied the faith for 2,000 yrs. It is talking about a falling away from biblical Christianity prior to the Lord’s return.

 

[Truth7t7]

There is a seismic change from the Old Testament to the New Testament in regard to the identity, reality, location and character of the temple. It is constantly referred to in spiritual terms throughout the New Testament, never physical. In fact, the whole old covenant arrangement (including the temple) is shown to be rendered useless, destroyed and replaced by something eternal, heavenly and superior.

We know of numerous passages that demonstrate the termination and replacement of the old covenant with the new covenant (lock, stock and barrel). This cannot surely be disputed by anyone.

Whilst the destruction (desolation) of the temple is predicted in the Old Testament and the New Testament nowhere in Scripture does it talk about the rebuilding of the physical temple in the new covenant period?

This temple is shown to be desolate until the consummation (the end, the second coming, the day when all will finally bow the knee to Him).

Paul repeatedly refers to the temple or tabernacle of God in spiritual terms, never in physical bricks and mortar terms. Why would he suddenly change in 2 Thessalonians? Why would he suddenly (out of nowhere) introduce a physical temple into this text without any New Testament teaching on the rebuilding of such a religious edifice?

What possible purpose would a temple serve to the Jews and the world? To facilitate a human antichrist making a fool of himself in it? This seems absurd and pointless. This teaching is normally held by those who hold Israel in a superior place to all the other nations.

The whole context of 2 Thessalonians is the New Testament Church, not apostate Judaism that has denied the faith for 2,000 yrs. It is talking about a falling away from biblical Christianity prior to the Lord’s return.

That seen below is future literal, your symbolic spiritual isn't seen as you claim, The Horse Is Dead, I have clearly explained my position

your words are a complete distraction from what is seen in Isaiah 66:1-4 & 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

You aren't going to remove the words of scripture below that clearly shows a future temple, and the future delusion God will send

Below you see the word "Temple" and the word "Delusion" only two places in my KJV Holy Bible is the word "Delusion" used, both are in association with a "Temple" with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 showing future events that surround the future second coming of Jesus Christ

This "Temple" and "Delusion" are future unfulfilled

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Isaiah 66:1-4KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

 

[covenantee]

That seen below is future literal, your symbolic spiritual isn't seen as you claim, The Horse Is Dead, I have clearly explained my position

your words are a complete distraction from what is seen in Isaiah 66:1-4 & 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

You aren't going to remove the words of scripture below that clearly shows a future temple, and the future delusion God will send

Below you see the word "Temple" and the word "Delusion" only two places in my KJV Holy Bible is the word "Delusion" used, both are in association with a "Temple" with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 showing future events that surround the future second coming of Jesus Christ

This "Temple" and "Delusion" are future unfulfilled

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Isaiah 66:1-4KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

It has been explained many times that the temple of 2 Thessalonians 2 is a "naos" (Greek) temple, which is the word that Paul uses exclusively to describe believers in Christ, collectively His Church.

Why do you continue to ignore Scripture?

 

[WPM]

That seen below is future literal, your symbolic spiritual isn't seen as you claim, The Horse Is Dead, I have clearly explained my position

your words are a complete distraction from what is seen in Isaiah 66:1-4 & 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

You aren't going to remove the words of scripture below that clearly shows a future temple, and the future delusion God will send

Below you see the word "Temple" and the word "Delusion" only two places in my KJV Holy Bible is the word "Delusion" used, both are in association with a "Temple" with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 showing future events that surround the future second coming of Jesus Christ

This "Temple" and "Delusion" are future unfulfilled

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Isaiah 66:1-4KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

You really do not get it. Your Dispensationalist mentors have misled you. All you have is your robotic cut-and-pastes that your teachers have given you.

 

[Truth7t7]

It has been explained many times that the temple of 2 Thessalonians 2 is a "naos" (Greek) temple, which is the word that Paul uses exclusively to describe believers in Christ, collectively His Church.

Why do you continue to ignore Scripture?

The Greek Word ναός naós, nah-os'; is uses 45 times in the KJV representing a physical, literal temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4

The human body filled by God the Holy Spirit is the temple of God, and the "Man Of Sin" won't be dwelling in a Spiritual Temple of God's Church as you falsely suggest

That seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is future literal, not spiritual as you believe and teach

Strong’s Definitions
ναός naós, nah-os'; from a primary ναίω naíō (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple:—shrine, temple. Compare G2411.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 46x
The KJV translates Strong's G3485 in the following manner: temple (45x), a shrine (1x).

 

[covenantee]

The Greek Word ναός naós, nah-os'; is uses 45 times in the KJV representing a physical, literal temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4

The human body filled by God the Holy Spirit is the temple of God, and the "Man Of Sin" won't be dwelling in a Spiritual Temple of God's Church as you falsely suggest

That seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is future literal, not spiritual as you believe and teach

Strong’s Definitions
ναός naós, nah-os'; from a primary ναίω naíō (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple:—shrine, temple. Compare G2411.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 46x
The KJV translates Strong's G3485 in the following manner: temple (45x), a shrine (1x).

Why the distraction?

Give us the instances in which Paul used "naos", and whether he used it spiritually or literally.

 

[Keraz]

This "Temple" and "Delusion" are future unfulfilled

The new Temple is unfulfilled, but the delusion is now, shown in the confused and errant posts here.

Will there be sacrifices in the new Temple?
When the Lord’s righteous people go to live in all of the Holy Land, soon after it is cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of fiery wrath, Ezekiel 34:11-31, they will build a new Temple in Jerusalem, according to the details given in Ezekiel 40-46

Many Old Testament prophesies attest to this, how it will be built by men from far away, Zechariah 6:15, and it will be greater than the former ones. Haggai 2:9

The New Testament too, makes it clear there will be a Temple, 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 11:1-2, that will exist until the end of the Millennium, when God Himself will be the Temple. Revelation 21:22


We are told that during this age of Church dispensation, Christ is our high priest and we are the spiritual Temple, 2 Cor. 6:16 and no sacrifices are required. Hosea 9:4

Hebrews 9 & 10:1-21 are the scriptures that clearly tell us that Jesus made the once and forever sacrifice for the expiation of our sins. Now there is no Temple and Christians are His ‘body’ on earth. This is just for the time from the early church until the new Temple is built, when there will again be offerings and thanksgiving gifts made by the Lord’s holy people. Isaiah 56:1-8, Daniel 12:1, Revelation 7:9-14


Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 9:26-27 tells us how, in the last days, an invading leader will make a peace treaty with the holy people, but will break it and put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. Obviously there will be sacrifices and offerings taking place, for him to stop them.

This is confirmed by the prophesies detailing how it will be during the period the righteous people of God will be living the Land before the Return of Jesus:


Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favour to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the Temple.

Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.


The context of these scriptures proves that all this will be for the last days’ period before the Return of Jesus. What will happen during the Millennium - there will be priest’s then. Revelation 20:6 and the Lords House will be on the holy Mountain. Zechariah 14:16-21

But we know there will be no Temple in Eternity. Revelation 21:22 Which actually shows there will be a Temple before Eternity.

 

[Truth7t7]

You really do not get it. Your Dispensationalist mentors have misled you. All you have is your robotic cut-and-pastes that your teachers have given you.

The human "Man Of Sin" will be revealed in a literal future temple on earth, proclaiming to be God Messiah

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

You don't get it, the "Man Of Sin" in (2 Thessalonians 2:4) doesn't inhabit "The Human (Bodies/Temples) Of The Church" that Are filled by God the Holy Spirit, As You "Falsely Claim"

1 John 4:4KJV
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Colossians 1:12-13KJ
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

1 Corinthians 6:19-20KJV
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Romans 8:9-11KJV
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Cutting the throats of innocent animals in the age to come renders these Christ-rejecting religious actors "holy people"??? Where do you get this nonsense? Who writes your script for you? This is absolute baloney! Where is your NT support for this nonsense? Nowhere! You make it up as you go. By doing this, you direct your disciples away from Jesus Christ and the final work He did on the cross. That is not enough for you. It wasn't satisfactory enough for you. You need more sin offerings.

This is a bloody mess. Think about the risen Christ and the glorified saints being forced to watch this religious sham of blood-letting for 1,000 years+. It is totally unthinkable. It couldn't more conflict with the new covenant teaching.

What is the purpose of these animal sacrifices? Why will you not tell us? It is because you have no NT support. You are (again) fighting with the Word of God. That is what your theology produces.

The reality is, one can search the New Testament pages, but can search Revelation 20 from start to finish, and there is not the slightest allowance for such a religious sham in the presence of Jesus in the age to come. They will never happen, neither for atonement or memorial. This is a Premil invention. It is never going to happen! Christ was the final sacrifice for sin. It is finished!

You didn't answer the question. It's very simple. Paul argues that the blood of bulls and goats can not take away sins. And yet, God commanded the sacrifice of animals. We can only conclude that the animal sacrifices served a different purpose in the original covenant. And if they served a different purpose in the original covenant, then there is no reason why they can't serve another purpose in the Millennial Period.

I told you why God prescribed the praxis of Moses.

Leviticus 20:26

Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.​

Deuteronomy 7:6, 14:2

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.​

Deuteronomy 28:9

The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, as He swore to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways.​

Keeping the commandments of the Lord marked Israel as a unique and holy people out of all the other peoples who are on the face of the earth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So, you are now denying that there is forgiveness of sin through the blood of Jesus Christ.

No, I did not deny that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is exactly why Amillennialists so strongly and passionately resist Premillennialism. Amils believe: where Jesus is, there is forgiveness. Those who do not know Him do not have forgiveness. Those who do have forgiveness. Forgiveness cannot be found in any other. Forgiveness cannot be found in any other transaction apart from the cross of Jesus Christ. We have forgiveness on the grounds of His perfect sacrifice for sin. That does not seem to be enough for you. It does not seem to be adequate enough for you. It does not seem to be final enough for you.

Ephesians 1:7 says, talking about Jesus Christ, “we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace."

Colossians 1:14 agrees: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins."

David embraced the cross by faith. This alone is his hope and trust. He requires and desires no other sacrifice.

David did not embrace the cross by faith. You are making stuff up.

 

[Truth7t7]

You didn't answer the question. It's very simple. Paul argues that the blood of bulls and goats can not take away sins. And yet, God commanded the sacrifice of animals. We can only conclude that the animal sacrifices served a different purpose in the original covenant. And if they served a different purpose in the original covenant, then there is no reason why they can't serve another purpose in the Millennial Period.

I told you why God prescribed the praxis of Moses.

Leviticus 20:26

Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.​

Deuteronomy 7:6, 14:2

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.​

Deuteronomy 28:9

The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, as He swore to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways.​

Keeping the commandments of the Lord marked Israel as a unique and holy people out of all the other peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Hebrews 9:22KJV
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What you said in post #4812 is not even remotely taught in 1 Corinthians 15:50! Are you kidding me? Where does that verse remotely say anything to support what you said, which was "But only those who have been transformed from perishable to imperishable can inherit the eternal aspect of the kingdom.".

What you seemed to be indicating in that post is that those who are transformed from perishable to imperishable will "inherit the eternal aspect of the kingdom" while those who are not transformed will inherit the non-eternal aspect of the kingdom. Is that not what you were saying? If it was, then I'm saying that is not taught at all in 1 Corinthians 15:50, so I'm asking you where it is taught in scripture? Pulling that out of 1 Cor 15:50 is as farfetched as it gets. Surely, you would have something to reference that more clearly teaches that concept if it was true.

We are discussing a proof text you offered Randy, asking him to explain his view in light of the text you cited. Since the text is offered as a challenge to his position, all he needs to do is explain why the verse does not deny his position. The same is true of all proof texts offered as rebuttals. The central question is whether or not the proof text, properly understood, contradicts the doctrine under examination. If I am promoting a particular viewpoint, does the text deny or explicitly stand in opposition to my view? If so, I must change my view; if not, then I don't.

The question is whether or not 1 Corinthians 15:50 explicitly contradicts the doctrine of a Millennial Kingdom. I don't think it does. The context is Paul's argument for a physical resurrection. He concludes his argument with a reason why physical resurrection is necessary. He says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but since flesh and blood has inherited the kingdom of God in some sense,* then his comment requires further explanation.

He argues that physical resurrection and transformation into a permanent, imperishable, incorruptible form is an essential aspect of our inheritance. Imperishable physical form is required for life in the age of ages. Without it, no one can live forever. Only those who have this form can live forever.

Having established has his central point, we ask, "Has Paul denied or contradicted the doctrine which teaches that after those in Christ are risen and resurrected to be with him, he will not also establish a kingdom of mortal Hebrews, the 144K, to live with him in Jerusalem?" I don't think it does. 1 Corinthians 15 is an argument for physical resurrection from the perishable to the imperishable. That text does not deal with timing, situations or occasions.

_______________
*In what sense has flesh and blood inherited the kingdom of God? In his epistle to the Ephesians Paul argues that the kingdom of God is our inheritance.

Ephesians 1:11-13

[A]lso we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

Although we are flesh and blood, we stand to inherit the kingdom of God because God has poured out his spirit into our hearts. (Romans 5:5) Having listened to the message of truth, and having believed the gospel, Paul's readers were sealed in him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance. So then, in some sense we have inherited the kingdom of God, though we have not yet received our inheritance. According to Paul, "we have obtained an inheritance."

 

[CadyandZoe]

Does the next age being filled with sin and sinners match up with Jesus's description of the next age (age to come)?

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Jesus indicated that those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come (next age) won't get married and they won't die. How can people who won't die commit sins?

So, the question is, does the quoted passage explicitly deny or contradict a Millennial period? The answer is, no, it does not explicitly deny or contradict a Millennial Period. It all depends on what Jesus meant by "and."

Option A:
The age to come is populated exclusively by the resurrected from the dead. Not only are they considered worthy of taking part in the age to come, but they are also considered worthy of being resurrected from the dead.

Option B:
The age to come will be populated by two groups of people, 1) those who are considered worthy of the age to come and 2) among those who are considered worthy of that age stand those who are also worthy of resurrection.

Based on the text alone, I can't argue in favor of one option over the other. Both are equally plausible interpretations. For this reason, I could not argue that the statement denies or contradicts a Millennial period, which will witness a group of mortals, considered worthy of that age, standing along side a group of immortals also considered worthy of that age.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where are you getting this from?

Do you believe the following refers to "the Millennial period"?

Ezekiel 45:15 Also one sheep is to be taken from every flock of two hundred from the well-watered pastures of Israel. These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the people, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 All the people of the land will be required to give this special offering to the prince in Israel. 17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths—at all the appointed festivals of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the Israelites.

It sounds like it to me. What do you think?

 

[CadyandZoe]

The very reason why the poster isn't to be taken seriously, complete ignorance on the foundational basics in the study of God's words

"Interpreting scripture with scripture is faulty"?

Way out in left field, out of the ball park, laughable!

Quote CadyandZoe:
Interpreting scripture with scripture is a faulty, unreliable, hermeneutic, leading to all sorts of erroneous doctrines. I would never recommend such a worthless pursuit.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I stand by my statement because I have personally seen the results

 

[WPM]

You didn't answer the question. It's very simple. Paul argues that the blood of bulls and goats can not take away sins. And yet, God commanded the sacrifice of animals. We can only conclude that the animal sacrifices served a different purpose in the original covenant. And if they served a different purpose in the original covenant, then there is no reason why they can't serve another purpose in the Millennial Period.

I told you why God prescribed the praxis of Moses.

Leviticus 20:26

Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.​

Deuteronomy 7:6, 14:2

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.​

Deuteronomy 28:9

The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, as He swore to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways.​

Keeping the commandments of the Lord marked Israel as a unique and holy people out of all the other peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Nowhere in the Old Testament did it say that cutting the throats of innocent animals in the age to come renders these Christ-rejecting religious actors "holy people." The verses you present do not say that. You are winging it again. You are manipulating Scripture to support your beliefs.

So you have nothing in the OT to support this and nothing in Revelation to say this. Do have anything elsewhere in the NT?

What is the purpose of these animal sacrifices in your supposed future millennium? Why will you not tell us?

 

[WPM]

David did not embrace the cross by faith. You are making stuff up.

So, how was David saved? What was the basis of his salvation? What qualifies him for heaven? Is there salvation by some other means apart from the cross?